Repairing a older style rudder port

[TitanTn]

My boat was taking on water this past summer and I came to the conclusion that it had to be the rudder. After doing some initial research, I discovered that there are primarily two different types of rudder ports (the part that isn't the rudder or tiller arm). One has rope packing like the prop shaft, and the other has a grease zerk fitting and o-rings. Mine has the grease zerk.

So after pulling mine out of the boat (pics to follow), I found two grease seals and some kind of rubber sock which was completely torn and obviously the reason why the port was leaking. So I called the ever faithful Inboard Discount Marine and asked for a rebuild kit. Guess what. There isn't one. The type of port that I have was used in the mid- to late- 80's before being switched out to the type that had o-rings. The company is out of business and there is no where to get the rubber sock.

So I took the port and rudder into Ace Hardware and sat on the floor with boxes of o-rings until I found a combination that would work. Finding new grease seals was not easy either. I could not find them at any parts store, and didn't have luck initially on a Google search. Eventually I contacted the manufacturer and found a place to buy them online.

I unfortunately didn't take a lot of pics while the port was apart, but I'll try to illustrate what I did with the pics below.

Removal:
Very straight-forward. Remove the bolt holding the tiller arm to the top of the rudder. There should also be a cotter pin in the top of the rudder, but mine was missing. The bolt slide through a small cut-out in the side of the rudder post which is a key element to keeping the rudder in the boat. Once you pull the bolt out, your rudder is likely to drop down. It may take a little persuasion, but don't get too aggressive with a hammer as you could mushroom the rudder post and then it wouldn't slide out.

Once the rudder is out, the port is removed with the four main bolts. It's very helpful to have some help so one guy can be underneath while one is in the boat.


So here's the anatomy of my rudder port.
http://sites.cplitho.com/misc/rudder/port2_edited.jpg

Grease seal 2 sits on a lip inside the port. The direction it sits is important because it will allow grease to go down the rudder post, but it resists letting grease (and water) back up. Grease seal 1 sits the same direction and attempts to keep grease inside the port.

Here's an image of the old seals I pulled out. They are shown top side up. This is the direction they're installed.
http://sites.cplitho.com/misc/rudder/old_gaskets.jpg

Here is where you can find replacement grease seals: http://www.bestpartsonline.com/servlet/the-4621/29.58-X-37.95-X/Detail

The rubber sock had a fat edge that set within a recessed lip at the bottom of the port. It was approximately 3 inches long and went to the bottom of seal 2. Here is a pic of what's left of the sock.

http://sites.cplitho.com/misc/rudder/busted_gasket.jpg

And here's an image of generic rudder port so I can show you where the recessed lip is that holds the sock in place. The recessed lip is on the inside.
http://sites.cplitho.com/misc/rudder/generic_rudder_port.jpg

Since I can only post four pics at a time, I'll continue in another post.

[TitanTn]

So my simple solution was to not use a sock (can't find one anyway), but to instead replace it with an o-ring. As I said before, I sat in the middle of the aisle at ACE Hardware for quite a while to find the best fit.

Here's the o-ring.
http://sites.cplitho.com/misc/rudder/oring.jpg

I'm very comfortable that the new o-ring will keep water out as the fit seems to be just right. The recessed lip in the port is deep enough to hold the o-ring in place.

Installation:
I put the new o-ring in place, and after purchasing all new bolts, installed the port (with the help of friend) with 3M 4200 sealant. I then greased the inside of the port and the rudder post, drove seal 2 into place with a socket, and put the rudder back into place. Then set grease seal 1, the c-clip (Which mine was missing also. I found a fit at ACE.), put the tiller arm back on with the keyway, inserted the bolt and tightened everything down.

Pump full of grease and it's done!

My only alternative would have been to purchase a new rudder assembly from Inboard Discount Marine for $400. I'm very pleased that I was able to find the right parts to rebuild this one and wanted to share the information with my Supra family. I had done some searching in advance of this project and couldn't many threads on rudder rebuilds, so I hope this is helpful to someone.

http://sites.cplitho.com/misc/rudder/port.jpg

[cadunkle]

Thanks for the info. In need to service the rudder in my Saltare but unfortunately it's not that type. It's a standard rope packing seal. The rudder has a lot of side play in it and leaks. I assume this is from the material of the port itself being worn. I am planning on replacing it with that $400 unit from skidim as I assume there are no replaceable bushings in the rudder port that would wear and allow slop in the assembly.

When you rmeoved the rudder port... How did you do it? Just unbolt the 4 bolts and whack it? Cut at the sealant with a razor first? Pry it off the hull? Want to avoid screwing anything up when I get to replacing it.

[Hagman]

Here are some pictures of the OME rudder box from my 86 comp8631863286338634

[TitanTn]

When you rmeoved the rudder port... How did you do it? Just unbolt the 4 bolts and whack it? Cut at the sealant with a razor first? Pry it off the hull? Want to avoid screwing anything up when I get to replacing it.

I don't know that whacking anything will get it out. Once the bolts are removed the port is loose. The plate on the bottom of the boat is slightly pressed on the bottom of the port and requires a little prying. Nothing major. Whatever sealant was used in my before was not holding it in place. That's why I put mine back with 4200 and not 5200. If I ever have to replace that o-ring again, I don't want the sealant pulling gelcoat or fiberglass off!

[TitanTn]

Here are some pictures of the OME rudder box from my 86 comp

Yep. That's look just like mine.

[Salty87]

great write-up.

this is one of the things i didn't do while it was apart and i've got a leak too.

does the port have to be removed to change out the innards?

[TitanTn]

Thanks Salty. No, the port does not have to be removed.

[bens250ex]

this is perfect iwas needing this info!

[lively]

Thank you so much for this bud , i was just about to start looking and seals for mine .. I had no idea it has a sock seal ... Deff going back with you idea and must say it (makes since) .... Thanks again , -lively-
my boat was taking on water this past summer and i came to the conclusion that it had to be the rudder. After doing some initial research, i discovered that there are primarily two different types of rudder ports (the part that isn't the rudder or tiller arm). One has rope packing like the prop shaft, and the other has a grease zerk fitting and o-rings. Mine has the grease zerk.

So after pulling mine out of the boat (pics to follow), i found two grease seals and some kind of rubber sock which was completely torn and obviously the reason why the port was leaking. So i called the ever faithful inboard discount marine and asked for a rebuild kit. Guess what. There isn't one. The type of port that i have was used in the mid- to late- 80's before being switched out to the type that had o-rings. The company is out of business and there is no where to get the rubber sock.

So i took the port and rudder into ace hardware and sat on the floor with boxes of o-rings until i found a combination that would work. Finding new grease seals was not easy either. I could not find them at any parts store, and didn't have luck initially on a google search. Eventually i contacted the manufacturer and found a place to buy them online.

I unfortunately didn't take a lot of pics while the port was apart, but i'll try to illustrate what i did with the pics below.

removal:
very straight-forward. Remove the bolt holding the tiller arm to the top of the rudder. There should also be a cotter pin in the top of the rudder, but mine was missing. The bolt slide through a small cut-out in the side of the rudder post which is a key element to keeping the rudder in the boat. Once you pull the bolt out, your rudder is likely to drop down. It may take a little persuasion, but don't get too aggressive with a hammer as you could mushroom the rudder post and then it wouldn't slide out.

Once the rudder is out, the port is removed with the four main bolts. It's very helpful to have some help so one guy can be underneath while one is in the boat.


So here's the anatomy of my rudder port.
http://unumemarketing.com/boat/rudder/port2_edited.jpg

grease seal 2 sits on a lip inside the port. The direction it sits is important because it will allow grease to go down the rudder post, but it resists letting grease (and water) back up. Grease seal 1 sits the same direction and attempts to keep grease inside the port.

Here's an image of the old seals i pulled out. They are shown top side up. This is the direction they're installed.
http://unumemarketing.com/boat/rudder/old_gaskets.jpg

here is where you can find replacement grease seals: http://www.bestpartsonline.com/servlet/the-4621/29.58-x-37.95-x/detail

the rubber sock had a fat edge that set within a recessed lip at the bottom of the port. It was approximately 3 inches long and went to the bottom of seal 2. Here is a pic of what's left of the sock.

http://unumemarketing.com/boat/rudder/busted_gasket.jpg

and here's an image of generic rudder port so i can show you where the recessed lip is that holds the sock in place. The recessed lip is on the inside.
http://unumemarketing.com/boat/rudder/generic_rudder_port.jpg

since i can only post four pics at a time, i'll continue in another post.

[suprasam]

Perfect timing, I have some side play in mine.....and some water also coming in. So I had planned on taking it apart a warm day this winter to try and figure out how to tighten up the play....and replace any seals that need it. I have an 86' Sunsport, and of course I have no idea which rudder port I have.....I guess once I pull it I will at least know which way to go. Great post!

[artmac]

Old thread but very helpful. I wanted to share my experience.

I had water from the rudder area also and found this thread and took the rudder apart.

What I found in the rudder port was 3 seals not two and the rubber sock. Two up top with a snap ring and one on the bottom with a snap ring. All facing the same direction.

I have ordered the 3 seals from the link above (thank you very much I am sure that was a lot of work to find) and went to West Marine and got some 3M 4200.

I know my '86 CompTS6M has not been molested since I have owned it since new in '86 and have not done this before. Hope this is helpful to someone.

[TitanTn]

I'm glad this thread was helpful to you, and thanks for adding to it.

[wotan2525]

I was out last night and sat for 4 hours and only had to bilge out ~15 seconds worth of water. This rudder port fix is the reason my boat is finally dry!

[premierproperties]

I'm tackling rebuilding the rudder port as well...does anyone have a P/N of the oil seals needed. Would save me a ton of time
Thanks
Tim

[TitanTn]

I'm tackling rebuilding the rudder port as well...does anyone have a P/N of the oil seals needed. Would save me a ton of time
Thanks
Tim

Not sure what you mean by oil seals, but the o-rings I put back into the rudder port are listed in this thread.

You have some great pics of your rebuild; you should start a rebuild thread and let us keep up with what's going on (or maybe you have and I'm behind the times). It's looking good.

[wotan2525]

I'm tackling rebuilding the rudder port as well...does anyone have a P/N of the oil seals needed. Would save me a ton of time
Thanks
Tim

If there's a NAPA near you, take it in there during a time when they might not be busy and they'll match up orings and lock rings for you.

[csuggs]

Just read this and glad I did! I took my rudder out tonight because of leaking but have not yet looked into the port. I really hope I can make the repair without removing it.


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[csuggs]

So I just looked in my port assembly and it doesn't look like there's much left of it.
July 4th on the water? Not going to happen.


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[TitanTn]

So I just looked in my port assembly and it doesn't look like there's much left of it.
July 4th on the water? Not going to happen.


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Ouch! Sorry to hear that, but glad you've discovered it now versus when its created a larger problem on the water.

[csuggs]

Rob - Your thread is really great! I'm trying to get the parts together that I need to rebuild the rudder, and I'm trying to find the parts locally if possible. However, your link to bestpartsonline has a mistake . . . it says in one place that the id measurement is 29.58mm and another place 28.58mm so I don't know what to look for locally. Do you know which it is?

Clint

[TitanTn]

I see what you're saying. The link is going to a 29.58 URL, but the page that loads is a 28.58 page. I've never noticed that, and I know I just copy and pasted the link. I checked their site, and both the 29.58 URL and the 28.58 URL go to the same product. I'm pretty confident that it's the 28.58.

[csuggs]

OK - but regardless, two of these seals you ordered from this website worked well for you . . .

[bens250ex]

OK - but regardless, two of these seals you ordered from this website worked well for you . . .


I have bought some seal local from napa before but I cant find the part number, im currently looking.

[TitanTn]

OK - but regardless, two of these seals you ordered from this website worked well for you . . .

Yes, they were spot-on in size and worked well.

[Riddell360]

Good thread, especially since I discovered the slop in my rudder this weekend. How much slop is too much? Mine doesn't leak much but I can tell my steering is stiffer than when I first bought my sunsport.


Called-N-sick

[TitanTn]

Good thread, especially since I discovered the slop in my rudder this weekend. How much slop is too much? Mine doesn't leak much but I can tell my steering is stiffer than when I first bought my sunsport.

Called-N-sick

I'm sure it can be different for everyone, but in my experience the steering stiffness is from the cable and not the rudder.

[Riddell360]

My rudder has much more slop in it compared to when I purchased it, that's why I think it may be the rudder. I may need to check my cable as well.


Called-N-sick

[KiltedYaksman]

Appreciate all the info everyone has shared on this topic. I've got a 1988 Supra Comp TS6M that has virtually nothing left inside the shaft port...so I didn't know what I needed to replace. This thread has been a huge help. Thanks again TitanTn for your original post and work to find the parts required to get me back on the lake!

[csuggs]

I got mine back together several days ago, but just had a chance to get the boat wet today. No leaks!
However . . The 1"x1-1/4" o-ring didn't fit so I used a 1-1/4"x1-7/16" instead and it fit much better. Anyway, I'm good to go!


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[csuggs]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/21/4a9u7aze.jpg


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[korey]

The link above for the shaft seal has changed (website changed, not the actual seal).

I believe this to be the current link:
http://www.bestpartsonline.com/oil-seal/metric/28-58-x-37-95-x-6-35-vc-nbr-4621

Ordered today, rebuilding this weekend!

[csuggs]

The most time consuming part of the process for me was getting the old seals out. The metal part of the seal was rusted and started to become one with the housing! Get a couple of picks and take your time!


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[suprasaltareaud]

So about 4 years after this post was started I noticed my front bilge pump is running every couple of minutes. Thanks to dual battery setup otherwise I'd be dead on the water. (Was anchored). Traced the constant stream of water to the rudder. Bugger. But thanks to this very old post I'm going to fix that problem.

[torch]

05 21v looks to have same setup as this post. Does anyone know if it is the same and if I can just get the parts at local auto parts store? I put grease in for first time today and it came out the bottom near rudder. Makes me think I have a seal gone bad or too much grease. Any thoughts?


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[TitanTn]

05 21v looks to have same setup as this post. Does anyone know if it is the same and if I can just get the parts at local auto parts store? I put grease in for first time today and it came out the bottom near rudder. Makes me think I have a seal gone bad or too much grease. Any thoughts?
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I can guarantee that you don't have the same post, but it may be similar. Unless you have a bent rudder post I would assume you have a bad seal. The worse part is just getting to it. Once you do, dealing with the rudder and post isn't a hassle.

[torch]

I can't get the damn rudder housing assembly to free from the hull. I removed the 4 nuts as well as rudder and shaft. Any ideas how to free this thing?


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[torch]

181371813818139

Ok, turns out mine is much different. Can't figure out how sleeve comes off. I did get top plate off. Any advice what to do next? Also, can't take rudder out fully because if trailer. Any ideas on getting jacked up high enough? Please help!


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[torch]

Ok, trailer was jacked high enough to get rudder out. Now is there any chance the housing sleeve is connected to the bottom (hull side) plate?


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[korey]

yes, on every one I've ever touched (but nothing as new as your boat) the bottom plate was a flange attached to the housing. Looking at your pictures, it is the same - one piece. It's probably bedded in with a pretty aggressive adhesive. I little heat may be required to get it loose.

[torch]

Got it out finally. Lots of adhesive to get off. Any great ideas how to remove and clean? Also seals look good and it looks like the grease coming out was through a small pinhole in bottom of flange. Anybody know the purpose of this hole? When I reinstall, what should I use to seal everything?


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[Cooose]

The seals are cheap...replace them while you have it out. I would also replace the snap rings, or at least remove and check their condition. Mine were rust welded in place...you can search for my thread were I rebuilt mine and see pics of what I'm talking about. There's also a picture in that thread of the tool used to clean it up.

The hole is where a grease zerk screws in.

[torch]

Any chance my model does not use snap rings? I don't have it in front me of me but the only thing in the housing was two o rings to the best of my knowledge.

Also, still trying to figure the purpose of this small pinhole that the grease came out of. It is on hull side near where rudder shaft gets inserted. It is not the grease zirc. That goes on engine side. I'm thinking it is just a grease relief if it is too full. Concerned however this setup would allow water into the housing


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[Cooose]

Any chance my model does not use snap rings?

LOL, you totally threw me off with your post title of "repairing old style" rudder. My boat is ~13 yrs older than yours. Worst case you can drop $500 at any number of online shops and have a full turnkey replacement, otherwise you may have to reverse engineer it yourself and post up the DIY.

Others on here may definitely be able to help but you may want to post some pics to help illustrate the questions you have.

[cadunkle]

My '89 Saltare had a packing gland for the rudder and just brass on brass of the rudder port to post, no provisions for grease. It wore out as there was a fair amount of slop in the assembly. Not sure which style you have, but I ended up replacing mine with the large Mastercraft rudder which has about teh same surface area. Performs great! If mine was rebuildable and not excessively worn I would have just rebuilt it but that wasn't an option unfortunately. My thread on rudder replacement: https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?18402-Rudder-replacement

[Rafamonc]

Thanks for the information, does anybody know if the snap ring has to be removed in order to remove the oil seals?

[TitanTn]

Thanks for the information, does anybody know if the snap ring has to be removed in order to remove the oil seals?

Yes, it does.

[csuggs]

Some of the original Supras used a packing gland, others had a mechanical seal with o-rings, grease seals and snap rings holding it together. Mine is the latter, and somewhere there's an old thread I posted showing diagrams and parts needed when I rebuilt mine probably 7 or 8 years ago.

Just realized that old diagram is part of this thread ... it was 2014. Wow!! I hope it has helped someone out there over the years.

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[Nickgb55]

So I got my rudder tore apart with the help of this thread. I have an 85 Sunsport that had a lot of play in the rudder and some leakage.

All I had in mine was two grease seals and the c clip. Grease seals are similar to an o ring but the o ring is seated in a metal sleeves that slide into the the rudder post, I just learned that today. My rudder did not have any sock in it.

I took the grease seals to Napa and they where able to get an exact match. My question is without the sock what is to keep the rudder from continuing to wobble? Is it the pressure of the grease shot in it? Or are you guys adding an additional o ring between the two grease seals to help the rudder stay in place?

[TitanTn]

So I got my rudder tore apart with the help of this thread. I have an 85 Sunsport that had a lot of play in the rudder and some leakage.

All I had in mine was two grease seals and the c clip. Grease seals are similar to an o ring but the o ring is seated in a metal sleeves that slide into the the rudder post, I just learned that today. My rudder did not have any sock in it.

I took the grease seals to Napa and they where able to get an exact match. My question is without the sock what is to keep the rudder from continuing to wobble? Is it the pressure of the grease shot in it? Or are you guys adding an additional o ring between the two grease seals to help the rudder stay in place?

There wasn't much left of my sock when I rebuilt it, so it's hard to know for sure, but it didn't have much to do with keeping the rudder in place or from wobbling. The sock basically separated the water from the grease. I assume the wobble is just from wear. If you want to experiment with it, you can get just slightly larger o-rings that might help the wobble. Otherwise, if it's worn too much, it might be time for a new rudder port.

[Nickgb55]

Thanks Titan...I wasn't sure if the sock had a smaller diameter to the rudder port that helped keep the rudder from wobbling. Just learning as I go. One of my grease seals was all bent up so that certainly did not help. But I will pad things with an extra o-ring if it needs it.

Thanks!

[Nickgb55]

Got everything back together and the rudder is much more secure and pumped full of grease. It has such a smoother feeling at the wheel, so smooth I though it wasn't working.

My rudder was really hard to get back through the port. One suggestion I saw was to out your grease rings in the freezer before putting them in to make them easier to insert. I ended up using a cat jack to get the rudder through.

[TitanTn]

I just fixed the photo links at the beginning of this thread. I didn't realize they had broken - sorry about that. Should be working now.