Carb'd vs EFI era Supras... What do you prefer??

[DAFF]

Just a quick idea of what owners of both old school and newer designs prefer. Loved my ol Sunsport :cry: and looking forward to the Launch. But right now I think I might of pulled the new boat trigger too quick. Hoping this might help me end the sellers remourse.

[wiatowski]

So I take it you got the launch?

[haugy]

While the fuel advantages of an EFI engine are definitely a plus. I love my carb'd engines. The response, the sound, the ease of repair, etc, make me really enjoy my carbs.

Other than fuel economy there is no real advantage between them. Some say throttle response, but if your carb is dialed in right, it's just as fast if not faster.

[docdrs]

Had a carb and loved it but love my mpfi more. So much smoother on starting and idle with no messin around. Oh ya and the fuel economy is way better. JMO , but I wouldn't hesitate to buy another carbed tho

[michael hunter]

I own both. I love my 89 but my 08 is far superior in every way . If there is a problem no doubt it will be more costly in the new boat. I have almost 400 hours now with no problems . Its nice to have quick starts and flawless running in all conditions. There will always be a soft spot in my heart for the old but my brain goes for the new.

[DAFF]

There will always be a soft spot in my heart for the old but my brain goes for the new.

This quote more less put me in the situation I am in !!!

With the soft winter of late I have been really watching my spending. I have committed to the new to me 03 Launch under the engine/trans condition confirmation in the spring. The seller is super nice, is fully aware of the issues the boat has and knows my knowledge and mechanicial ability in boats is a perfect fit to the 03. I just wanted confirmation from fellow Supra owners that my idea on paper is one which is factual and a solid investment.

The boat itself looks like it had a underwater collision which tore off the prop and rudder in its early life. The fix was structurally sound, but the finish of the finial product seems to be a 7 out of 10. With some work to the underside of the boat and a good clean, polish and runthrough of everything the boat is a great investment and looks killer. NTM the new 20hr crate engine from a improper winterization from a few years back.

[cadunkle]

Carb is the only way to go for me. There are no disadvantages. Carb and EFI have the same efficiency and throttle response, anyone who says otherwise doesn't have their carb sized and tuned properly... Or is using a poor design of carb for the application. Carbs are cheaper and more reliable as well.

Personally I'll never own a fuel injected vehicle. I tried it once and it was a terrible mistake. Chased all sorts of fuel and sensor issues and never resolved the problems with it. No mechanic knew what to do with it either. Aside from that vehicle I've seen so many fuel infected engines that won't start, won't stay running, or run very poorly when tehre's absolutely nothing wrong with the engine itself. Screw that, I want no part of getting stranded for some oddball sensor or electrical issue. Fuel injection can definitely be a safety issue for me because I ride where there is big ship traffic in a fairly narrow channel at many points. I'm not gonna get run over by a barge, tanker, container ship, or warship because some random sensor decided to crap out.

To each his own, but I'll stick with my old junk that just works and on the very rare event it doesn't, can be fixed in a pinch on the water with a few basic hand tools.

[pap]

Carb is the only way to go for me. There are no disadvantages. Carb and EFI have the same efficiency and throttle response, anyone who says otherwise doesn't have their carb sized and tuned properly... Or is using a poor design of carb for the application. Carbs are cheaper and more reliable as well.

LOL, are there -any- carbureted engines made any any production automobile today? There's a reason for that.

[jet]

I this a trick question??

Daff!! Get a cover on that thing. lol

[ditchsnake]

LOL, are there -any- carbureted engines made any any production automobile today? There's a reason for that. EFI. No question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[michael hunter]

If I recall GM got rid of carbs in 83. I was a ASE certified auto mechanic from 1971 to 1991 . During that time I saw the rise of electronic
Ignition and fuel injection . In the early years the FI systems were problematic and difficult to repair . Now pretty much all the manufactures have solid trouble free systems. The reason points and carbs are no longer used is because they dont work as well.
Staying with the simple basic systems because you dont understand the more complicated systems is fine . But dont try to say they are just as good or more reliable . All systems break down if your mechanic isn't capable of repairing it its not the systems fault .

[cavilry]

I guess it depends on what you want. Admittedly I am more knowledgeable with car applications, but for general use I would say EFI hands down. More reliable, more efficient, more powerful (okay, thats a bit of a tough one to say), and yeah, there is a reason manufacturers went to them. Generally speaking I would go with EFI all the way if I had the money and it was a newer boat with a polished EFI system. The early ones were definitely a bit iffy.

That being said, am finishing up my 1972 Alfa Romeo GTV and I just went to the dual webers. Granted, that was for nostalgia and the fact that my car had the SPICA mechanical fuel injection...

[cadunkle]

Michael, when you add complexity you add points of failure. Carbs just work and have very few points of failure. EFI has MANY points of failure and MANY more things that can cause the system to not run properly or not run at all. Beyond that, those many additional components are expensive and complex, requiring additional money and time to diagnose and repair. Carbs (depending on the model) can get the same fuel economy and driveability as EFI, but with far less complexity and cost. Simplicity is beauty is reliability.

[pap]

That is a beautiful theory, but reality is starkly different. Again, the market speaks to efficiency and economy and expense: nobody uses carbs anymore.... and it isn't because the new stuff looks better: a dual carb system sitting on top of a big block is a thing of beauty, but functionally....

[docdrs]

Michael, when you add complexity you add points of failure. Carbs just work and have very few points of failure. EFI has MANY points of failure and MANY more things that can cause the system to not run properly or not run at all. Beyond that, those many additional components are expensive and complex, requiring additional money and time to diagnose and repair. Carbs (depending on the model) can get the same fuel economy and driveability as EFI, but with far less complexity and cost. Simplicity is beauty is reliability.

If this was the case then why did we ever go from 2 stroke motors to 4 stroke. Way more parts to fail and more costly to rebuild. The efi motors today are far more efficient than carbed motors. The atomization of fuel and fuel to air ratio parameters can not be matched on a carbed engine. Plus , unless you have a perfectly tuned intake manifold, the distant cylinders will always run leaner than the closer cylinders. For 95% of the population efi is most practical , but for the gear heads I can see why a carb is the only way to go.

[michael hunter]

Cadunkle I have to call you out on to your last statement. No way any carbureted system can match fuel economy,drive ability and performance of EFI.
You say the EFI systems are costly to maintain . I have a 05 GMC 75k miles 02 Lexus 157K miles 08HHR 58K miles 08 350 EFI boat 380 hours .To date the only thing that has been replaced on any of them is filters and spark plugs [in the Lexus] not much money or time spent here. I have worked on thousands of cars and rebuilt hundreds or carbs over the last 30 years and I can say without doubt the best engines and systems are the ones being used today . As a professional mechanic you make most of your money doing maintenance . With the EFI , high energy ignition , serpentine belts and silicone gaskets there is very little maintenance to do anymore . Now since there are very few carbureted engines around the parts are getting rare and expensive. We all dream of a simpler time but you cant stop progress especially when its in the right direction.

[DAFF]

I remember when I got my first Supra back in 1990... Boat was running very bad and need the points cleaned up. I asked my friend an old school mechanic why in the this modern world boats still run points??? Thinking back, adding a electronic ignition seemed the only logical thing to do. He replied due to the reliability issue and how things can go bad in the water at least points will get you back.

IN the modern world of today my Android can be used as a scanner on any OBDII based system. Reading the codes it doen't take much to diagnose the issue or at least possible causes. Very rarely will a computer based system completely fail other than a bad crank sensor. So simplicity to me says the old carb and a cleaner running more fuel efficient engine EFI.

So are the new boats also OBDII based??

[DAFF]

Getting rid of the old v belt system is a great positive too !!!

[cadunkle]

If this was the case then why did we ever go from 2 stroke motors to 4 stroke. Way more parts to fail and more costly to rebuild.

Many reasons why two strokes are not practical in every application. The main reason being they don't exactly wear nicely, so have a lot shorter life between overhauls. They also create a crapload of heat especially as you scale up into heavier applications. There are other reasons too, but you're talking totally different scenario than carb vs EFI.


The efi motors today are far more efficient than carbed motors. The atomization of fuel and fuel to air ratio parameters can not be matched on a carbed engine. Plus , unless you have a perfectly tuned intake manifold, the distant cylinders will always run leaner than the closer cylinders. For 95% of the population efi is most practical , but for the gear heads I can see why a carb is the only way to go.

Depends on what you're building the engine for. I have yet to hear of anyone else with new lifted EFI truck getting the towing MPG I get with my old heavy carbed truck. 10.8 at 65-70 MPH towing and 12.5 at 70-75 MPH. I expect a slight increase in both figures due to some tweaks over the winter, but haven't tested yet. Everyone I hear with a modern EFI truck is getting worse MPG, and most of them aren't lifted. Unloaded, year some are better... But before the lift I was getting about 16 MPG highway.

Fuel distribution issues are real. Can be mitigated with better intake designs, dual carbs, or if you really want you can go with a Weber setup or similar for one carb per cylinder. Real world experience shows with a decent intake the fuel distribution issues are relatively insignificant.

[cadunkle]

Cadunkle I have to call you out on to your last statement. No way any carbureted system can match fuel economy,drive ability and performance of EFI.

See above about my truck's fuel economy. Most guys I talk to with EFI gassers don't get anywhere near that towing MPG. A properly tuned carb setup just plain works, same as EFI. Cold weather will require choke adjustments for extreme cold or significantly colder than where you had it adjusted for... Or just use a manual choke to simplify that aspect of it.


You say the EFI systems are costly to maintain . I have a 05 GMC 75k miles 02 Lexus 157K miles 08HHR 58K miles 08 350 EFI boat 380 hours .To date the only thing that has been replaced on any of them is filters and spark plugs [in the Lexus] not much money or time spent here.

Your three brand new vehicles run like brand new with only minor maintenance? No surprise there. Come talk to me in 10-30 more years and let me know how all those electronics are holding up, how many sensors have failed and left you without a ride. Try driving your GMC through deep water enough to dip the engine compartment, or even halfway up the engine, let me know how that works out for your EFI.


I have worked on thousands of cars and rebuilt hundreds or carbs over the last 30 years and I can say without doubt the best engines and systems are the ones being used today . As a professional mechanic you make most of your money doing maintenance . With the EFI , high energy ignition , serpentine belts and silicone gaskets there is very little maintenance to do anymore . Now since there are very few carbureted engines around the parts are getting rare and expensive. We all dream of a simpler time but you cant stop progress especially when its in the right direction.

High energy ignition, serpentine belts, and silicone gaskets are fine. These things are totally different from EFI, and can be put on any engine. For clarification, all my vehicles do have carbs, but they also all have electronic ignition pickups. Serpentine belts make sense when you're running high amp alternators or other high draw accessories. There are plenty of advances in technology that makes it easier to build better engines, using the same blocks they used 50 years ago. EFI though? No thanks. You keep your progress and I'll keep my carbs, they just plain work every time.

[michael hunter]

Fuel distribution issues are real. Can be mitigated with better intake designs, dual carbs, or if you really want you can go with a Weber setup or similar for one carb per cylinder. Real world experience shows with a decent intake the fuel distribution issues are relatively insignificant

How can a carb ever do better than continuously adjusting the exact fuel mixture hundreds of times per minute taking in all outside conditions and injecting it just as the intake valve opens? I am getting 10 towing 15mph not towing with a 05 Savana 3500 with a 6 L and
275/60/18 tires. I am currently working with a 2 cell Hydrogen generator system on my HHR so far it went from 24 city to 30 city and 29 hwy to 36 hwy . Once I get it dialed in I will put a 6 cell on the Savana and see where it goes.

[michael hunter]

High energy ignition, serpentine belts, and silicone gaskets are fine. These things are totally different from EFI, and can be put on any engine. For clarification, all my vehicles do have carbs, but they also all have electronic ignition pickups. Serpentine belts make sense when you're running high amp alternators or other high draw accessories. There are plenty of advances in technology that makes it easier to build better engines, using the same blocks they used 50 years ago. EFI though? No thanks. You keep your progress and I'll keep my carbs, they just plain work every time.

All of those advances are so reliable and maintenance free there isn't much you need to do on a newer engine maybe change the oil and filters . You dont have to rebuild , adjust or change anything for altitude or winter. Its more likely you will have an ignition problem before a EFI problem . What vehicles are you running a carb and High energy ignition?

[DAFF]

As for MPG and saving fuel direct cylinder injection is the best IMO. Just remember for true raw power is created by richer fuel mixtures causing more power higher in the power band, this might explain the benifits of carbs in the racing world.

Hydrogen generations systems will work better on the smaller engines. CFM and work load increases of the bigger engines causes an non linear result comparison. Yes there will be an increase in milage but not one of 25% like the HHR. Just my thoughts perhaps I am wrong. I still think bang for the buck diesel engines are the best.

[michael hunter]

Daff
I agree about the diesels pre 2008 after that they have mucked them up with emissions . I am still in the testing stage with the Hydrogen . I just got a O2 sensor control unit I will install this weekend it should bring up the mpg even higher? At this point even a 10-15% increase will be welcome on the old tow pig.

[DAFF]

I agree about the diesels pre 2008 after that they have mucked them up with emissions .....

Mid 07 around here was the change over for emissioned to death diesels. Not wanting to stray to far off topic but it is relevant to the simplicity idea. I still can't figure out the reasoning of the diesel trucks of today using 1.5xS the amount of fuel to reduce the soot out of the tail pipe. Sure the DEF fluids and regen units work but they use more fuel period. Not to mention all the emission centred reflashes and breakdowns. The diesels are built to last but the dependability has been robed by the enviromental impact.:eek:

This somewhat brings us back full circle to the carb vs efi delema. As long as technology offers benifit of use and creates a increase in dependability then I am in 110%. As diesel trucks go..... My heart belongs to my 95 12valve CTD Dodge. 700 000 km on the truck and its having a face lift as we speak. Here is a quick pic. Oh ya the 1200km to the tank of fuel is worth the soot out of the tailpipe.:-P

[Jetlink]

Daff, making yourself a custom "mega cab" there?

[cadunkle]

How can a carb ever do better than continuously adjusting the exact fuel mixture hundreds of times per minute taking in all outside conditions and injecting it just as the intake valve opens? I am getting 10 towing 15mph not towing with a 05 Savana 3500 with a 6 L and
275/60/18 tires. I am currently working with a 2 cell Hydrogen generator system on my HHR so far it went from 24 city to 30 city and 29 hwy to 36 hwy . Once I get it dialed in I will put a 6 cell on the Savana and see where it goes.

By it's very nature an EFI system is not continuously adjusting. A carb is. A carb is analog and adjust constantly to present conditions. EFI can only cycle and adjust so many times per second. This is similar to CD/digital vs records or transistor vs tube. It all comes down to carb design and tune. You can slap an out of the box Holley on an engine and get worse MPG than a factory EFI setup. Or you can tune it properly and perhaps get better MPG.

For example, you get 10 MPG towing your lighter Sunsport with a new EFI truck. I get 10.8, likely more with some tuning changes in the off season, with my '86 F-350 lifted 4" on 35" tires with a 460. Drop it to stock height and I'd expect over 1 MPG increase in fuel economy. My setup is not dialed in perfectly and is not exactly using top dollar parts for max power and economy, so there is power and MPG on the table that I could regain if I spend the money a new EFI engines costs when building it. My carb also has cheap dogleg boosters. There would be gains in fuel economy as well as throttle response in going to annular boosters. My cheapy $50 carb works fine though and gets better MPG than many EFI setups though, so it's good enough for now.

The hydrogen setup is interesting for sure. I don't know much about it but that stuff interests me. Not sure I want the complexity on my vehicles, but it's cool.

[cadunkle]

All of those advances are so reliable and maintenance free there isn't much you need to do on a newer engine maybe change the oil and filters . You dont have to rebuild , adjust or change anything for altitude or winter. Its more likely you will have an ignition problem before a EFI problem . What vehicles are you running a carb and High energy ignition?

I've run high energy ignition setups on 60s Fords in the past. It's easy to make a system yourself with GM parts, or swap to off the shelf ignition components. Same goes for a marine application. Regardless, added complexity in EFI systems, as well as some modern ignition systems, results in more failures that will leave you stranded as compared to a simple carb setup.

[michael hunter]

Cadunkle
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject . I dont hate carbs I still have one on the supra and it works well .

[cadunkle]

Agreed, to each his own. :)

[mapleleaf]

I'd like to weigh in on Daff's pic.....
MegaDaff

[redraider08]

When did supra start going with EFI and electronic ignition?

[haugy]

Y'all are all crazy.










Flux-capacitors are where it's at!!!! :D

[Jetlink]

Flux-capacitors are where it's at!!!! :DI thought the future was in ball bearings... Although, if anybody can figure out a way to get a Saltare or any other Supra to hit 88 MPH...I put money on Haugy pulling it off.

"If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88 MPH...we're going to see some cool stuff."