1992 Sunsport won't start

[jeffkaasmason]

Hey Guys,

Got my new (1992) Supra tried it once and then took it to a cottage. I had it out last night and it seemed to be running fine for the most part. Found that it could idle well but you had to give it a good shot of gas when going into gear. That was not a big deal and I could handle that.

This morning I tried to start it up and it started nicely and then stalled. Since then I have been trying to get it going but no luck. I decided to check and see if it was getting spark and thought I should take a look at the spark plug so I took one out. I was thinking maybe I should just go and buy some new ones so I took a few more out. I remembered I should check for spark so stuck one back in, grounded it and turned over the engine. It stared as soon as I turned it over. I put all the plugs back in and tried to start it and it started for a seconds and stalled. I took the front plug back out and the motor started again. Put it back in and it would not start.

So as you can tell I'm not a mechanic and am going at this blindly. One thing I did do this morning was clean all of the connections from the battery to the starter as I was getting a click sound some times rather than the motor turning over. I don't think this should be causing me to have issues getting the boat running but thought I would mention that.

Anybody have any thoughts about what I should look at first.

FYI - here is what one of the plugs looks like. It seems to be clean and looks fine to me.
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Also, can someone tell me what these two buttons are for?
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I believe the motor is the Pleasure Craft Ford 351.
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We have no internet at the cottage either so I have come to town to ask this and take care of a few things.

Thanks,
Jeff

[wotan2525]

Those are master circuit breakers. Looks like the 50amp is popped out? If you push it in does it click and then pop back out? This will effectively kill your engine!

[SquamInboards]

Let's get a little more info... How many hours are on the engine? Did it run okay for you the first time you used it? Was the previous owner using it? Did you fill the tank recently? Are you giving it any throttle while trying to start it? What RPM does it idle at, in gear? Out of gear? Does your distributor cap look clean inside?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but just trying to help, the more info we have the better... If it was running okay and nothing has changed, don't go and change parts out just yet. It could be flooded or have a stuck choke plate or something really simple.

[kreckley]

Jeff When it won't start you have to verify you have spark. Electrical is finicky and will be on and off. I doubt your bat connect is an issue. From your pics you either have a ground problem (corrosion) or your computer is going. Just pulled mine. I had way less corrosion
The 12.5 breaker is for your computer under the coil paks The 50 is for the rest of the electrical on the boat including the starter. Make sure they are not tripped Press them in If it runs ...yea If it quits see if they were tripped esp the 12.5..I replaced my ignition system and after taking it off and checking it I think my intermittent problem may be corrosion could have been just on the plugs at the computer, but I am staying with the mallory which is much less complex.. You may be heading the same way call if you want 92 saltare 454
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[kreckley]

One more thing fixing it is much simpler than you think. Ive had my salt are 18 years You're protect is probably the problem and don't get sucked in to spending 600 to fix when it can be done for less than 280 or 330 with new wires included

[jeffkaasmason]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the replies. I just came into town to get some internet, check for responses and give an update on my situation.

I managed to get the boat started and went to a marina on the lake where a mechanic (somewhat) took a look at it. Oh, when I got it going the oil light/alarm came on and started beeping. The pressure was still at 40 (middle position of gauge) so I figured I could idle to the marina. The guy checked a few things and thought maybe the oil sensors were not working because the pressure was at 40. He could not confirm it and continued looking around at electrical connections. He touched the connection on the front top of the motor that goes to the sensor that would be where a distributor cap usually sits on this motor. When he touched it the motor died. When he wiggled it the motor reacted by almost stalling or kind of choking. It seems like it could be part of the problem but I am not convinced it is the entire problem.

In the end, he could not get a new sensor, before our departure date from the cottage, so he did not have much to offer other than:
1 - Pump the throttle if it won't start
2 - Wiggle the wires on the sensor if it still won't go
3 - Ignore the oil alarm if the pressure is still at 40

When he checked the sensor connection he pushed the green packing back in the connector as it was sticking out a bit. Since he did that the boat does seem to start better. The oil alarm does still come on sometimes when idling, going very slow, or after driving for a while at higher speeds. We did get out today and did some waterskiing, wakeboarding, and a bit of mild tubing. For the most part the oil alarm did not come on but occasionally it did and the pressure did drop below 40 to about 36 for a bit.

I did try and open it up on the way back from the marina and found that it seems to be misfiring above 35 miles per hour. It was not doing this before. At least not as noticeably.

Answers to questions:

Hours on engine - Looks like 1230 ish

First time I used it it seemed to work fine. I have an issue with starting and that has been there since the start. Sometimes I just get a starter click even though the batteries are fully charged. This is still happening and I get around it by going into forward, then reverse and then to neutral. Takes a few tries but eventually it turns over.

The previous owner was using it. He was older and cruised around the lake slowly or pulled his grandchildren on it. Not sure how much he did this though. When I called to see if he still had it, his wife said he did and that he was just out on the weekend with the grand kids.

I just filled the tank when I got it and filled it again today.

I was giving throttle before but now if it does not start I pump the throttle and that seems to help.

RPM at idle and in gear I will have to check on that as I did not take note.

Distributor cap - I guess I don't have one as I have electronic ignition.

As for the circuit breakers, I thought that is what they might be. They do not seem to be popping and the boat is running (with some issues) so I guess I don't have to worry about those for now.

Kreckley - The mechanic guy thought it was most likely do to some kind of electronic issue. I'll have to chat more with you later about what to look for/check around the computer.

So my biggest concern right now is the oil alarm. The mechanic guy said to just keep an eye on the gauge and not to worry if it is still at forty. What is a safe range for the oil pressure? He says it is most likely faulty sensors. Can it be something other than that? Could it be the computer that is reading the sensors?

Thanks again for you help guys. We are babying the boat but enjoying every minute that we are on it.
Jeff

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[wotan2525]

I think most of us have oil/charge/fuel lights that come and go. As long as the gauge shows pressure, it's just the alarm malfunctioning. Some have disconnected the "computer" and some have just unplugged the audible alarm.

I think you've listed far too many possibilites. You need to start narrowing things down. Like... does it run better or worse with the "oil pressure sender" completely disconnected?

And you do have a distributor cap. Even with electronic ignition.

[CornRickey]

Imho you need to fix the things that you know are wrong. The connection that you need to "wiggle" to get it to run is the first on the list. Next is to verify that the breakers are indead out (i doubt they are) because if they are and everything is kind of running then you have some major issues with someone jumping them. The only reason to jump them is that they kept popping from excessive amps or worn breakers. Worn breakers happen due to higher than normal amps also. Your going to be out on the water in a boat. It needs to run and be protected from electrical fires.

[kreckley]

I just typed a book to you and the connection went down Lots of stuff on pcm if you still haveit Knock water and oil sensors that will put engine in limp mode. Clean eveery connection you can touch with dremel and wire brush attachment. You can get a gauge at hardware to put in where sending unit is to verify actual pressure. I was told by supra but have not found screws on sounder under dash can be adjusted for sensitivity Oil pressure when warm could go as low as 8= 10 should read 40+ at speed
Those sensors get bypassed if and when you go to new ignition which makes life much simpler

[92SupraComp]

looks like your optical sensor is bad. as you can see we exact same engine. the optical sensor needs to be pristine in order for it to work. take it apart and carefully clean it with brake parts cleaner and clean the connector with the cleaner as well. check your timing too. we have never touched ours since we bought it (1994) and it was still dead on. luckily a new optical sensor isnt that expensive.and dont get sucked into over paying the $500 or $600 for the conversion kit.

also. THERE ARE TWO "COMPUTERS" PEOPLE. One is under the dash. all it does is read the inputs to the gauges and sets off the light and alarm if a reading is out of a set limit. this has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE IGNITION. the other is actual ignition pack. it has its own sensors (which are actually switches) and a knock sensor. the switches some people say you can just disconnect them and they are fine. we tried it once. it didnt work. you have to have the switches in working order. (tap them lightly with a small hammer, fixed our problem over 15 years ago.)

[SquamInboards]

looks like your optical sensor is bad. as you can see we exact same engine. the optical sensor needs to be pristine in order for it to work. take it apart and carefully clean it with brake parts cleaner and clean the connector with the cleaner as well.

This sounds like a reasonable approach, and a good troubleshooting exercise anyway. It sounds like, as the mechanic said, something electrical. You said the boat operated fine the first time you used it, so that's why I asked about whether it had been used much this season, and about whether you had recently added fresh fuel. If it's working fine and then suddenly not, that sounds more electrical than anything else. Base timing doesn't just magically change, but if something electrical is messing with your advance, then you can have run issues relating to spark timing.

Trying the simple things first is always a good approach.

[kreckley]

switches unnecessary after mallory conversion Just manage the gauges 454 runs strong

[92SupraComp]

switches unnecessary after mallory conversion Just manage the gauges 454 runs strong

no need to convert if it still works or can easily be fixed. ours still runs like a top with the coil pack. if it starts to give us trouble we are gonna rebuild it rather than fuss with conversion.

[jeffkaasmason]

Hey Guys,

I decided I should try and do some reading so I could understand what was being suggested to me. I found the manual for the engine and started reading it. One thing I have come across is the fuel requirement. I did not know that it required a mid-grade gas with octane rating of 89. I had filled the tank with regular gas in the US when I brought it back to Canada and then filled it again in Canada with 87.

What would you expect to happen given that I am using the wrong gas. The note bellow says I should adjust the timing if using 87 so that makes me wonder if I should expect poor performance.

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[SquamInboards]

That alone shouldn't be causing the problems you're experiencing. With the pro-tec ignition you have, I'd be looking at that first; while it does work and people do still run originial pro-tec systems, many have replaced the system entirely in favor of a conventional distributor with electronic ignition. I'm not suggesting that you do this yet, merely that the ignition system you have is prone to trouble and that's where I'd start looking if it were mine. That being said, if you're comfortable checking and adjusting timing, then that's an easy thing to do, it's free (assuming you have a timing light), and it certainly can't hurt just to check.

[kreckley]

jeff I have always worked on every motor I'VE owed If your spark is intermitent Timing will not do squat for you and will just waste another weekend of fun. You need to find if it is electrical or not and probably is...... My conversion was cheaper, faster and my boat has never I repeat never started easier and run better than it does right now Do not be frightened of turning your boat into a nascar conversion with no restrictor. It truly is A no brainer period I f you have compression and gas This boat will run like a scalded cat. Don't over think it

[SquamInboards]

jeff I have always worked on every motor I'VE owed If your spark is intermitent Timing will not do squat for you and will just waste another weekend of fun. You need to find if it is electrical or not and probably is...... My conversion was cheaper, faster and my boat has never I repeat never started easier and run better than it does right now Do not be frightened of turning your boat into a nascar conversion with no restrictor. It truly is A no brainer period I f you have compression and gas This boat will run like a scalded cat. Don't over think it

Your posts would be easier to understand if you took a little time to separate out sentences.

I think you're agreeing that it sounds like an electrical (ignition) problem. But fragments like "I f you have compression and gas this boat will run..." are not really helpful or true. Compression, fuel, and spark at the right place and time, in the right ratio, is what's required.

But again I agree with your last comment "don't over think it" because it's often the simple things, especially when it's been running well recently.

edit - just saw this other post relating to PROTEC ignition, maybe it's worth a call to this guy at Discount Inboard Marine (skidim.com) - https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?11555-PCM-Protec-Ignition-issues

[jeffkaasmason]

I'm not comfortable changing the timing and will put the proper gas from now on but thought I'd check and see the extent of the effects it would have.

This is the sensor I was talking about earlier:
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It does have a crack in it. I thought this is what was referred to as an optical sensor but it does not seems to have optics. I found it on skidim.com for $37 and think maybe I should buy it. One thing I am wondering is; Would wiggling this sensor cause the motor to run erratic even if it is in good shape? The mechanic I had that took a quick look at the motor was convinced this was causing issues.

I think I'll try and order this part and see if that helps. Seems like a cheap start compared to the conversion kit @ $500-$600 (not sure which one I would need).

Thanks for the help everyone,
Jeff

[SquamInboards]

Sounds like you're on the right track. If you order it from skidim, they are generally very helpful and apparently their guy Vince knows a lot about the pro-tec systems as mentioned in the other recent thread I linked to above.

I never suggested changing the timing, but I was thinking if you had a timing light it is simple to check whether it's correct, or if it's changing, or advancing properly... etc. that's all. It can also serve to check for consistent spark at each plug wire.

[kreckley]

Excuse me if you can't understand God help you with texting

[kreckley]

Jeff DO NOT SPEND 500 TO 600 unless you love to burn cash Give me a call and I will tell you how to fix and where to order your parts I have no vested interest in any company but my own Doctor office. 317 432 2883 What you will end up with is a simpler set up and everything works. You won't get stranded on the lake when the computer sticks it up your ...... as it seems fit My 454 starts so well and I have owned it 18 yrs Runs perf and smooth You don't need skidim for this though they were helpful to talk to. This is the free education you need. Kevin

[Ptownkid]

You're obviously a good dude...but please use some punctuation my man! Hahaha

[SquamInboards]

You're obviously a good dude...but please use some punctuation my man! Hahaha

^^this. I know you're trying to help and all I'm saying is there's a difference between a text message and the "paragraphs" you're typing out here. You throw in the occasional period so why not just go all the way? If I were the OP I would give you a call and get this figured out.

[jeffkaasmason]

Jeff DO NOT SPEND 500 TO 600 unless you love to burn cash Give me a call and I will tell you how to fix and where to order your parts I have no vested interest in any company but my own Doctor office. 317 432 2883 What you will end up with is a simpler set up and everything works. You won't get stranded on the lake when the computer sticks it up your ...... as it seems fit My 454 starts so well and I have owned it 18 yrs Runs perf and smooth You don't need skidim for this though they were helpful to talk to. This is the free education you need. Kevin

Hey Kevin,

I may convert later if my problem is not solved by the crank position sensor or one of the other cheap sensors. I'll ping you for advice if I go that way. Sounds like you are mechanically inclined and do the work yourself where as I would need a mechanic to do it which would add a bit of cost to the conversion.

Thanks,
Jeff

[jeffkaasmason]

I talked to Vince and Roger at skidim.com and got some advice. They mentioned that I should consider converting the motor and get rid of the ProTec system but did give me some advice on how to check and see if the sensors are causing some of the issues. I did order a Crank Position Sensor (the one in the picture in my previous post) as it is cracked and wiggling it affects the motor.

To check if the other sensors are causing me grief, Vince told me I should disconnect them, and then tape the ends so they do not send signal to the computer. My problem is I don't know which sensor is which. I think I know a couple but I'm not sure. There are four that I see on the engine in the pictures below. I think that they are:

1. Water temp sensor
2. Not sure
3. Not sure (maybe knock sensor)
4. Oil pressure sensor

Can someone help me identify them?

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Thanks,
Jeff

[kreckley]

1 3 and 4 are sensors to the computer 2 is water temp sender to the dash Your oil pressure sender is on the same T with the sensor. You dont have to be a mech to change this to electronic. It looks daunting and you will be amazed how easy it is I can walk you through this and your parts will be 1/2 skidim and you will save the mech fee and have the satisfaction of doing it yourself. I just hate looking at the problem just fix and enjoy the power

[kreckley]

FYI you dont need to disconnect any of the sensors or sending units with conversion. The sensors only get disabled when you convert Your gauges will work as before

[kvand347]

Wanted to bring this back...whatever happened?? Sensors fix it? Did you end up converting?

Mine was acting up all summer. Usually a couple restarts and I can cruise the rest of the day without problems. Thinking about converting in the spring. How much kreckly for the parts? PM me what and where to find them.

[jeffkaasmason]

I finally got to try out the boat this year and it seemed to work great. I bought the "R020012 - SENSOR CRANK POSITION" piece that I took a picture of earlier in this thread. I also bought the carburettor rebuild kit. Both from skidim.com. I brought the boat into a local marina herr in Toronto (City Marine) and got them to rebuild the carb, do a tune up, and winterize it. I just got back from a 4.5 month job in Dubai so I did not get a chance to try it out earlier.

We dropped it into Lake Ontario to try it out and it started up right away with no issues. No more stalling. No more hesitation. Cruises at 41 miles per hour and sounds great to me. I am not a mechanic but to my ears it sounded good.

On the weekend I installed an FAE that I bought last year. Have not tried it out yet but looking forward to that this weekend.

So I have not had enough time out on the water to say for certain that it is going to continue to run well, but so far it is looking promising. Fingers are crossed.

Next thing I need is a trailer. The one I have is not very good for loading and one of the beds just broke when we were launching it. Also the wheels look like they are tilted in from the weight of the boat.

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My buddy Konrad driving at full speed.

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