Transmission fluid capacity?? PCM 351 ProBoss (& slipping tranny, would love insight)

[trayson]

So, a couple things. 1) what is the capacity of the transmission fluid? I have a 1992 sunsport with the PCM 351 pro boss.

The reason I ask is because it seemed like my tranny was slipping when I was playing around doing higher speed corners. It sounded like the engine/prop was "peeling out" and then it would catch and I would have power again. It did it again (slipped) today when I was pulling a wakeboarder out of the hole before I was up on plane...

So, the previous owner suggested I might be low on tranny fluid. Of course, I was. My fluid level was low enough that when I was floating today, it was barely enough to leave a drop on the bottom of the dipstick.

Of course, I was kicking myself that I FORGOT to bring fluid out on the water with me (because it says to measure it level and at operating temp with the engine off). So, the best I could do was to measure the fluid level with the boat on the trailer on level ground. Now, to be nitpicky, I probably need to drop the ball of my reciever another inch or two to make the trailer truly level. That said, I only ended up putting in about a quart. And it seemed like I was right where I needed to be between the fill lines. Admittedly, I had a really hard time knowing exactly where the fluid level was on that dipstick as the tranny fluild is so thin, it makes it hard to really know where the fluid is. I swear I checked it a million times. But only taking a quart was kind of surprising to me. (I'm used to my Jeep which has a ton more capacity on it's ATF)

Anyway, I'd love to hear some thoughts on this. It's my first boat and I obviously don't want to screw up the transmission.

[Jetlink]

Off the top of my head I can't rattle of the capacity however, make sure that you're checking the fluid level properly. The dipstick is not to be shoved all the way in when checking. Pull the dipstick, wipe clean and then you just set it back in so it rests just before you would have to apply any pressure to close the fill port. Remove and check your fluid level then...otherwise you might still be a tad low.

[Sirgonz]

Did you get it figured out? We got out this weekend but with the free fishing for Anyone weekend going on the river was busy!

[trayson]

Did you get it figured out? We got out this weekend but with the free fishing for Anyone weekend going on the river was busy!

Yeah, I searched a lot and found a post where a similar (albeit newer) tranny had a 2 quart capacity. So if I was a quart low, that's 1/2 empty and yeah, there's no doubt that it'd be giving me issues. I took the boat out again this evening (weather is so awesome) and it didn't give me any slipping out of the hole and I threw it around on some hard turns and had no issues. So I'm feeling better about it.

Yeah, we've been seeing a lot of fishermen, but there's a lot of space on the Columbia, so didn't really feel that cramped. We put in just east of the I-5 bridge and head downstream. I've been finding the best water over by the port of Portland on the SE side of Hayden Island. Although honestly the water hasn't been that great. In fact, the last two days I only surfed (or as much as you can call it surfing behind my direct drive with only an under the seat bag). Can't wait until my wakemakers.com order ships! Ballast on the way!

[trayson]

Off the top of my head I can't rattle of the capacity however, make sure that you're checking the fluid level properly. The dipstick is not to be shoved all the way in when checking. Pull the dipstick, wipe clean and then you just set it back in so it rests just before you would have to apply any pressure to close the fill port. Remove and check your fluid level then...otherwise you might still be a tad low.

So, when I am looking down the full/check tube, it's about 3/4 inch wide and goes down 4 or so inches. Then it's only about 1/4 inch wide where the dip stick goes in another inch or two when it's fully pushed in.

Visually, I can see the fluid is basically at the top of the 1/4 inch section (with the boat parked, noise a bit down, and cold).

Also, I popped off the black cover that is above the bilge pump. It seemed like that pocket between the bow and engine had a puddle of tranny fluid there... Should I be concerned?

[trayson]

Crap, slipped again today. Probably have a leak. Hope its not too many Labor hours to get the seals replaced. I am thinking that must be it.

[Salty87]

everyone says they are easy to work on but i've never had to.

does your bilge run while you're out?...don't really want to be dumping that overboard.

[trayson]

everyone says they are easy to work on but i've never had to.

does your bilge run while you're out?...don't really want to be dumping that overboard.

I hear ya... I don't wanna be "that guy".

[trayson]

Crap, slipped again today. Probably have a leak. Hope its not too many Labor hours to get the seals replaced. I am thinking that must be it.

Welp, it was a little too much off and on rain to go play on the water today, so I bit the bullet and trailered the boat to our local boat dealer. Pretty sure it's leaking tranny fluid (although it's hard to tell as the bilge is a slimy mess with fluid residue everywhere). Cleaned it out as best I could before taking it into the shop.

I'm out of town next week in NYC so I'm hoping that they get it figured out (without spending a zillion dollars in labor) by the time I get back...

*sigh* The uncertainty of $$$ at $100/hr makes me anxious.

[trayson]

Okay, here's the update:

Issue
- Tranny was slipping with hard cornering and under load out of the hole.
- Found I was low on Tranny Fluid, so I topped it off (probably a quart low on a 2 quart capacity).
- Slipping went away
- Started slipping again, tranny fluid in the bilge. It's undoubtedly leaking.
- No burnt smell from fluid
- Dropped boat at dealer on 6/18/13
- It took them 11 days until Saturday 6/22 for them to even look at it.
- Supposedly they can't find the source of the leak and it didn't slip when testing it out of the water unloaded.

I'm about at the point where I just have them replace all the damn seals on the transmission and get me my boat back...

Thoughts on what I should do? How many labor hours would be involved in something like replacing the seals? I found the kit for $183 on skidim.
http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RK173058

[DAFF]

Brake clean the housing on the trans and go for a ride. Bring a mirror and look all over the trans. I would put my money on the output shaft seal (prop side)on the back side of the trans. Make sure there isn't a vent tube or port on the trans too. I recall one on my Comp.... If these plug it can cause a increase in internal pressures and leaks through the seals. Very common on rear ends on trucks blowing seals for this senario.

[trayson]

Brake clean the housing on the trans and go for a ride. Bring a mirror and look all over the trans. I would put my money on the output shaft seal (prop side)on the back side of the trans. Make sure there isn't a vent tube or port on the trans too. I recall one on my Comp.... If these plug it can cause a increase in internal pressures and leaks through the seals. Very common on rear ends on trucks blowing seals for this senario.

What would your guess on labor hours to replace the output shaft seal? If I was going to have that done, would it make sense to just have all the seals and gaskets done?

[trayson]

Okay, here's the update.

I had cleaned out the bilge. I warmed up the tranny on the water and checked the fluid per what I found on a Natique website regarding the PCM 40i 1:1


How to check the fluid level on the PCM transmission

WARNING!
In order to prevent personal injury to you or others on board, whenever the engine is running, the machinery space must be closed. Never operate the engine with the engine machinery space open or while someone is in the machinery space, either open or closed. Never open the machinery space unless the engine is shut off and engine's rotating parts are stationary and remain in a stationary position. Rotating machinery can cause injury and even death if an accident should occur. Whenever a problem exists that requires the operation of the engine with the machinery space open, extreem care must be exercised. IT IS RECCOMENDED THAT UNCOVERED ENGINE OPERATION BE ATTEMPTED ONLY BY TRAINED AND QUALIFIED SERVICE PERSONNEL.

The boat must be at rest in the water with the engine running at idle speed and the proppeller shaft not turning. SEE PRECEDING WARNING.
Pull the dipstick straight up and out of the transmission case to remove dipstick.
Wipe the fluid off the dipstick with a clean cloth.
Push dipstick fully into the installed position in the transmission fill hole.
Remove dipstick and note level indicated. Add fluid, if required, to bring level up to the top mark.

NOTE: Add oil in small amounts to prevent overfilling. If the transmission is over filled the excess will have to be removed to prevent leakage or damage to the transmission.

If it is necessary to add oil repeat steps 1 through 5. Reinstall dipstick.

So I topped off the fluid. Then I took it out and did a bunch of s-turns and Zipped around. No apparent slipping.

So, then I did a few out of the hole pulls. Again, no slipping that I was able to notice.

So, I filled up my ballast sacks. I was probably around 1200 to 1400 pounds of ballast, and didn't feel any slipping pulling my 280 pound friend up on the surf board or when surfing with him. Likewise when he was back corner in the boat with me surfing (the other people were probably 215 more pounds) I didn't notice the tranny slipping.

So, we each had a pretty decent length surf session. He took 3 or 4 pulls. I took just the one long one...

After we were done, the water in the bilge did have a little milky-ness to it. And I probably had to add under 1/4 of a quart to get it back to where it was.

So, the fluid is getting out somehow. Yet I can't seem to find anything obvious. I looked around the pressure relief valve (at the top of the tranny on a spring about the size of a pencil eraser) and it still seemed clean.

I did notice this verbiage in the Factory Service manual that looked interesting:


Problem: Loss of oil with no trace of missing oil.
Cause: Oil leakage from cooler into the cooling fluid
Remedy: Replace cooler.

I'm wondering if this could be it???


On another side note, it seems I have water getting in from somewhere. The bilge pump was running a decent amount when the boat was weighted for surfing. It's always something, right?

[trayson]

Another update. I called up and talked to one of the techs at SkiDIM. (man, they know their sh**.)

The next steps to check are to pull the starter and check for tranny fluid in that area. I guess there's a seal by the flywheel and if that's going bad I'll see it there. Also, he told me to check my engine/transmission/prop alignment. I guess if there's an alignment issue, that transmission has the tendency to walk out seals.

He said that since I'm finding fluid in the bilge, that it's unlikely that it's the transmission cooler. Makes sense.

[wotan2525]

Unless your bilge is REALLY clean, I'm not sure you can be certain that the fluid was there before or after. If you're losing 1/4 quart in one session, my money is on the tranny cooler leaking. It's designed to leak out without letting water leak in (although it doesn't always work that way.)

Certainly check if there is fluid in the bell housing, but I think the first/cheap fix is the tranny cooler.

[trayson]

Unless your bilge is REALLY clean, I'm not sure you can be certain that the fluid was there before or after. If you're losing 1/4 quart in one session, my money is on the tranny cooler leaking. It's designed to leak out without letting water leak in (although it doesn't always work that way.)

Certainly check if there is fluid in the bell housing, but I think the first/cheap fix is the tranny cooler.

How would I know which one to buy?

http://www.skidim.com/products.asp?dept=1099

EDIT: I guess I meansure the length of mine and look at what dimeter barbs are on it, huh? :o Dumb question I guess!

[trayson]

Update:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FjhhtDREN88/Udd6QthzcPI/AAAAAAAAOR0/xH8xlKcShwQ/s800/20130705_185133.jpg

[trayson]

So, I boxed up the transmission and it's shipping today to Fantastic Finish Marine for a full rebuild.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0Fv89ElShb8/Udxs9vYXxUI/AAAAAAAAOUI/t2-msjkPlcE/s800/20130709_094319.jpg

It only weighed 56 pounds in the box. Not bad. Got a crazy deal on shipping through work. WA to OH for $25 + $10 insurance.

I also found out that there were chipped teeth on my flywheel's ring gear. SKIDIM.com wanted $120 for a ring gear. I got one from my local auto parts store for $22. A local machine shop is going to R&R the ring gear for $15. Nice!!!

I'm also going to change out the rear main seal while I have everything apart... We will put the transmission back in and then attempt the alignment ourselves. But if we aren't successful, I have an appointment at Active Water Sports a few days after I will get the tranny back.