Biggest mistake OR just an expensive oppertunity???

[z2smith]

Please help!! So I just purchased a 1987 Saltare. Owner made a bunch of claims that have proven to be untrue such as working blowers, bilge, and a strong running motor. As well as strong stringers, no repairs made to mounts or stringers. So far, I know these few things:

-Motor only sputters when I try and put the throttle down. Idles good, starts decent, will rev up in neutral, but as soon as put it under load it sputters. Could be just bad fuel, but could also be carb, filter...?
-Bilge appears to turn on, but the engine bay still holds water over the top of drain hole plug with the big handle (6-7") of water.
-One blower makes noise, the other does not.
-Didn't find this forum until AFTER I purchased the boat so I knew not to check the engine mounts/stringers, but after finding this forum, I went out and checked the bolts. The passenger side is strong and lags are tight (save the horizontal ones which do not tighten down). But on the drivers side, there is only one lag that will really tighten down, the others spin but have a mild amount of resistance. The stringers sound and feel strong and solid yet, so I am confused by the lags not wanting to tighten down. There is one bolt that appears to have epoxy or some sort of substance oozing out the top which makes me nervous.

Did I get screwed into a major problem? What should I do? I have only had the boat one day and I have tried to return the boat to the seller but in so many words he says tough luck. I paid a little more then 6k. I am sick to my stomach feeling like I got screwed on this one, so any help here (although I'm not hopeful) would be greatly appreciated.

[Jetlink]

Ok... First step is to try and relax and take a deep breath. All these issues can be addressed and fixed. It is a matter of time and money and skill available. The easy issues to resolve are the blower and bilge. The engine is next and lastly is the floor and stringer issue. If you want to proceed from this point going forward, there are plenty of us here who have dealt with or will be dealing with some or all the issues you brought up so do not despair, you have found a great place for knowledge and help.

You asked if this is a mistake or an expensive opportunity, that will depend on you and what you get out of this in the end. Me personally, I wouldn't view this is a total mistake, maybe a slightly expensive mistake just from the standpoint of your starting point money wise. That is just my opinion though. Welcome, post up some pictures of the boat too, and not just the problem areas. We love pics here!

[z2smith]

Thanks for the support! I will get some pics up tomorrow. I'm still trying to negotiate with the seller, seeing as he totally misrepresented a bunch of stuff, so my first choice would be to get a major reduction in price or return it and keep looking for a better cond. boat. Is 6500 to much to pay for this boat in the condition it's in? I feel like it is after looking through some of the posts here. Thanks again for replying so soon.

[Jetlink]

Yeah, $6,500 is too much. I'd say more around $4,000 is what that might be worth. I'd shoot for something closer to that for starters if the seller isn't a total d-bag.

[z2smith]

Overall package is boat as described, and it also included a tandem axle bunk trailer that works okay. Did all 87 saltare's with the 454 come with the Holley 4160? I know I have a holley carb, and am planning on rebuilding it, just not sure how to find out which carb it is. I really like the boat, and would like to keep it. Just pissed I spent as much as I did on the purchase price. It may be my naivety, but the stringers sound and feel good, I feel like it's just where the motor mounts bolt in. Should I try increasing the size of the lags for the engine mounts and use some epoxy to help hold them in the stripped out holes?

[Jetlink]

Carb, yes...it should be a Holley 4160.

As for the engine mounts, I wouldn't go that route but that's just me.

[wotan2525]

The first thing to try with the motor mounts is to take out a few bolts and probe the holes with a screw driver or ice pick. See if they feel squishy inside, see if the tool gets wet/muddy.

If the stringers are dry -- you have a chance.

If they are wet/muddy you can try and delay a rebuild and at least get to a point where you can safely enjoy your summer. Report back and I (and others) can give you some tips.

Where are you located?

[bens250ex]

This same thing happened to me, I ended up putting stringers in.

[Supra_Comp]

This same thing happened to me, I ended up putting stringers in.

This is the way I look at it. These boats have a classic design and with a few extra $$ to re-build them they will be better than new and will still cost less than going and buying a $40k used Supra, Nautique, or 'Bu.

All of the guys on this website have a tons of knowledge and experience, nothing to worry about!

[Salty87]

The first thing to try with the motor mounts is to take out a few bolts and probe the holes with a screw driver or ice pick. See if they feel squishy inside, see if the tool gets wet/muddy.

If the stringers are dry -- you have a chance.

If they are wet/muddy you can try and delay a rebuild and at least get to a point where you can safely enjoy your summer. Report back and I (and others) can give you some tips.

Where are you located?

in addition to what wotan said, inspect the bolts when you take them out. if they are mostly shiny and dry that's good. if they look corroded with dark brown almost mud looking wood that's bad. take pics.

also stick your camera with flash on into the bilge pointed toward the transom. take a few pics. where the stringers attach to the transom is generally one of the first places to show rot if it's there.

take some deep breaths. even with rotten stringers you've probably got time to use the boat. most old supra's will need their stringers replaced. you're by no means alone. and what you paid isn't ridiculous. i paid more for mine and didn't even get a trailer with it. if you don't mind some hard work and have the space to do it you can easily have a sweet boat that will last alot longer than you'll use it for less than $10k. that's not bad at all.

[haugy]

Welcome to the Supra world.

As others have stated, first take a deep breath. I know it seems real crappy right now, you feel taken advantage of, and are probably having serious buyers remorse. But all of the issues you have noted can be fixed. Some easy, some not so much. But there are ways to work with it.

Lets start with the easy ones first. The blower and the bilge. Mine only had one blower running as well when I got it. It turned out to be a bad wiring problem. Are you any good with electrical wiring on say a car? If so, it's the same concept, check your power and ground at the blower, and then trace it back. Your blowers are under the rear hatch. You then remove the screws that are holding the storage bin in place. Once you remove that, you will see your two blowers back there.

Bilge pump. First off, I'm a safety nut. My family rides in my boat, so there are no second chances if something happens. Any boat I buy, gets a new bilge pump. I don't know what the old one has been through. Bad wiring, did they ever leave it on for long periods of time, was it full of gunk, etc. Get a new large bilge pump, that you wire in personally. That way you know it's good, and a new pump. My guess is the check valve on yours is worn out keeping it from fulling pumping all the water out.

Carb. Have you ever done any carb work? It's not too bad once you do it once. But lets start with some simple diagnostics first. Get yourself a 5 gallon can of fuel, and about 4 ft of fuel line from an auto parts store. It's always handy to have around anyways. Then run the fuel line straight into the fuel pump on the front of the engine. Trace the hard fuel line from the carb down, it will go into the pump. On the pump will be a rubber hose from your gas tank. Put your new line to the 5 gallon can there. Start your engine. Does it still sputter? If so, it could be the carb or the fuel pump. If not, and it's better, it's probably just the fuel filter. Next, disconnect the fuel line from the carb and turn the motor over. You should get a lot of fuel out of the fuel pump. It can still be bad even if it's pumping a lot, so that doesn't rule it out.

Next, there is a tiny metal screen right where you disconnected the fuel line from the carb. Check it and make sure it's clean and free of debris. That can affect the fuel flow. If these all check out, then your carb probably just needs a good rebuild. We can walk you through that as well.

As for the stringers. Well the reality is, most all of these boats that are pre-1992 are going to get stringer rot at some point. It's only a matter of when. The bad thing is, it sounds like the seller knew the stringers were bad by putting epoxy in there. That is a band aid that I have seen work, but normally only for a season. I know guys that have run their Supra for a year or two with stringer rot, but they are gambling big time. If it turns loose you are screwed big time. Pull your lag bolts out, and check them out like others have said. You can try to add some diameter to them and about 1/2 an inch in length to see if they bite and hold. I've also seen guys over-tighten them and strip them out, and then you think the wood is bad. But in reality the wood was fine, and a larger bolt held for years.

Take pictures, that helps us help you a ton. Take a lot of pictures of what you are working on, problems, etc. And then we can visualize and assist. Plus we just love to see the new Supra's in the neighborhood.

Again, don't worry. You've got a Saltare, and many of us have them here, so you're in good company for help.

[z2smith]

Thanks everyone for your help! You guys are awesome! I will take a ton of pics tonight, and take a closer look at the stringers to see if I feel safe enough to use the boat this season. I'm fairly mechanically inclined. I work quite a bit on my two four wheelers and have rebuilt a few carbs in my time. From what I read the Holley 4160 doesn't sound much more complicated than my Sportsman 500's carb. Easier to get off and access too! If any of you incredibly helpful members have good links to parts kits or suggested upgrades/mods that would be great! I'm spending about two hours or more a night right now trying to catch up on what I just bought! haha. So if you have suggestions to help cut my research time down I would be very very grateful. Thanks again for your support and help, and I'll do my best to get some pics up tonight.

[haugy]

Go here if you need things: www.skidim.com They have tons of parts for these kinds of boats and engines. If you're not sure, call them up, they are extremely helpful.

Many here are putting phenolenic spacers on their carbs so that when they are running for a while, the heat from the block doesn't cause the fuel to boil out. That will make you have to crank on the engine for about 5-10 seconds next time you go to start it. Other than that, it shouldn't really need any mods. And I'd just focus on getting it running safely and reliably first.

[gogger]

I know the exact feeling you had last night. Last winter I purchased an 1989 Pirata brought it home. I knew it needed upholstery, so I took it straight to a shop. After he looked at it he let me know that it also needed stringers. Wanted $10,000 for stringers and upholstery. I paniced tried to get the seller to take it back, and then I found this forum. After a lot of calming from the members here, I was able to get through last summer without too much problem and then I had Donny replace the stringers over the winter. Now I have a solid boat that I really love and it is paid for. I paid $4400 for the Pirata with the rusty old trailer. If your upholstery is good you are better off than me as I spent $3000 to reupholster her.

One side of my motor mount bolt felt solid. The other side just spun. After talking to Donny I used lag bolts that were a little longer, and filled the holes with get rot first. Didn't have any problems with using it all last year. After seeing how bad the stringers really were, it is rather surprising the boat stayed together at all.

I am pretty sure that after you get it running properly and enjoy it on the water, you will be happy with it and willing to to the repairs she needs.

We will all be watching your progress.

[z2smith]

Didn't get as much time to take pics as I would like, I'll try for some better ones tomorrow with my other camera. I pulled a couple of the bolts from the engine mounts, and while they are not in good condition, they could be worse. I'm looking into putting oversized lags in with epoxy to get me through this summer. Any arguments why I should NOT take this next step would be apreciated. Any reccomedations on what epoxy to use...or not to use would be awesome. I believe I would have to drill out the motor mounts to accomodate the larger lags so that's pretty much my only hesitancy. However if I keep it long enough to replace the stringers, I wouldn't be opposed to using a bigger size lag to hold down the motor. Yea, .02 appreciated.

https://plus.google.com/photos/106172131654122694519/albums/5885827978386962497

https://plus.google.com/photos/106172131654122694519/albums/5885827978386962497

[wotan2525]

Here's the thing -- epoxy will not adhere to wet wood no matter what you do. I'd get stainless or galvanized lag bolts that are 1" longer and 1 size larger in diameter. I'd inject a 2-part epoxy in the hole and then I would immediately snug up the new lag bolts (don't drill the holes out any bigger!)

The next day I would check them and see if they are "snug" or if they spin freely. (Again DO NOT overtighten/strip these -- you're only going to have one chance and I'd leave them 10-15ft lbs tight.)

If the majority of these snug up, I wouldn't hesitate to run it as-is. I'd check them regularly and I'd do everything I could to keep the boat covered/dry.

You can easily get another few seasons out if the boat if this works. You'll only be out $20 if it doesn't. It at least gives you the time to plan for the time/expense of replacing them.

[2500HD]

There is a method for replacing wood for screws or lags, basically you oversize the hole and replace with new wood, glued inplace. this would assume the surrounding wood was in good shape, it would also mean removal of the engine.

[haugy]

Oooh looks pretty in red. No full boat shot? Come'on you can't just tease us with a stern shot. Get her broadside. :D

Okay, the good and the bad.

Bad first: Looking at picture number 4 I think, looking from the ski pylon forward you can see a very high waterline. Could be a minor thing that just happened once, or could have sat like that for a while. That bilge pump is shot to hell. Replace it.
As for the motor mounts, it won't hurt to open them up a bit. The reality is, you need to remove those bolts and dig a screwdriver down in there a bit. If it feels like sponge, you're due for stringers. If it's solid, go for the bigger lags and get a good hold. But keep in mind, this is just a band-aid.

The good. I've seen worse man. Really. Look through some of Salty's, SybrMikes, and Titan's threads and you can see some rough dogs that now look great. Their boats looked pretty rough, and they are now some of the best looking boats on the site. The biggest thing is to not get into too much of a rush, and don't let it overwhelm ya.

Start with the lag bolts first. If they are toast and you are due for stringers, a new bilge pump won't matter.

[DAFF]

Engine mounts seem to be in OK shape. When they get really soft the mounts will wear marks in the fibreglass and will often oose with wetness. I would go through the basics and repair the bilge pump and re attach it to the bottom of the boat like the float is attached. The boat has spent some time soaking in the lake by the water lines in the hull of the boat. My biggest concern is the structural integrity of the transom. There seems to be some large cracks in the gel coat which would co inside with soft wood.

All in all it looks to be a nice boat which needs some love but will get you in the lake for now. Do some research on the cap off stringer replacement, this might be a good winter project for you. Most of all welcome to the family and enjoy your new ride.

[awesomesteven]

+1 on the platform mounts. This can happen to you.

[dirtydawg]

nice big boat with nice big engine. definitely worth a full rebuild if you so choose to. And dont be scared to work on any part of your boat yourself theres plenty of help here and plenty of good upgrades that your boat will accept. its a fine hull even by todays standards.

[DAFF]

For inspiration look at Googers boat.... Yours is in the same "Then" category. Supra boats are all worth all the sweat and work of a rebuild. When complete they are stunning.

[Jetlink]

I would check the rear platform mounts. That platform may pull off of there by the looks of the fiberglass cracks. Bet the wood behind gas tank is gone as well.

And I would also pull those supertrapps off and at least seal them up good or even better, eliminate them. Those are/were a major source of water being introduced into these hulls and leading to the dreaded stringer rot. I ditched mine last year and have been pleased ever since because now my boat stays dry when in the water, and that is a difficult feat to pull off especially in a Comp. Also, just flat out replace that bilge pump, don't repair it as it is worth the peace of mind to have a new fully functioning bilge pump.

[z2smith]

As for the motor mounts, it won't hurt to open them up a bit. The reality is, you need to remove those bolts and dig a screwdriver down in there a bit. If it feels like sponge, you're due for stringers. If it's solid, go for the bigger lags and get a good hold. But keep in mind, this is just a band-aid.


I'll start with the lags, as soon as I finalize the post purchase deal with the seller, trying to get him to adjust the sale price which is NOT fun, but at least he's talking so thats a good thing. I know it's a band-aid...I did stick a screw driver into the stringer and it wasn't super spongy I'll just have to see how the lags go in. Got some PIA drilling to do with the engine mounts.

[z2smith]

And I would also pull those supertrapps off and at least seal them up good or even better, eliminate them.

You reccomend just putting flappers on? Those just basically clamp on in-place of the supertrapps right? Like these - http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BBB137159

[z2smith]

And I would also pull those supertrapps off and at least seal them up good or even better, eliminate them.

So I just take off the Supertrapps and put these on? http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BBB137159 Looks simple enough...

[jasun]

Welcome to the salt club! I bought mine last fall an had a lot of the same issues. I went back to the seller and he ended up giving me 1000 back. I picked mine up for 3500 and have put alot into it during the rebuild, but I can guarentee that it will be better then factory when I am done.

A good test to do if you can is to weigh the boat. She is a big lady to start with (3400 lbs), but when I weighed it, it was tipping the scales at close to 4600 lbs. when I got to tearing into her, I could see why!! I removed more wet foam then I ever care to again. I am still not done with my rebuild, but it isn't that difficult. Just take your expected finish date and add about 4 months to it!
I'm in the car right now but will shoot you a link to some pictures of the rebuild. Like others have said, there are several that have done this and they are a wealth of knowledge.
Good luck!!

Here is a link to my restore
http://s919.photobucket.com/user/jasunderland/library/boat%20rebuild

[villain]

hey, did you return the boat? i got an email from a seller saying that their was some problems with the boat he sold and it is now up for sale again.

[villain]

are those cracks by the swim platform mounts?

[z2smith]

I would like to return it, I even offered to compensate the seller with a couple hunred bucks cash, AND deliver it down to him, but I haven't heard back. I would be interested in restoring it, but I just had a baby a week ago and do not have the time OR the money to do a complete rebuild...this was supposed to be our summer get away and it has turned into a summer nightmare. The cracks by the swim mount appear to be from the installer of the aftermarket swim mount getting a little too overzealous tightening. You can't feel the cracks so I'm hoping they are just in the final gel coat...they probably aren't though...

[villain]

are you only interested in a direct drive boat? there might be a way that this could work for us all. im trying to sell a great running boat and looking to buy a saltare that is in need of saving.

[Supra_Comp]

Just so you can see the alternate method of not taking the deck/hull apart for a complete re-build...(don't get me wrong, the other guys on the site did it properly with all new)

What we did here was leave the main stringers as they were not horrible but had some areas of concern. Around the engine cradle we put all new wood/fiberglass so it had good support. The side lags for the engine mounts were new and longer and had fresh wood to bite into. A couple of the lags on the top mounts were soft and we used a 2 part marine epoxy in the hole then bolted them in. I tested the bolts with my torque wrench a couple days later and with it set @ 20 ft.lbs, were holding ok, so I am running with it for now.

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv142/GT40_Sally/IMG-20130430-00035_zps73fff1c2.jpg

[villain]

any word on what is happening? the seller was supposed to call me last night but never did.

[z2smith]

He must be unavailable. I tried calling him yesterday and again today and no answer or return call. What did he say to you when you were in communication with him?

[z2smith]

Okay, so I have to at the very least get this thing working in the water. Problem with the sputtering under load could be several things so I'm just going to take care of them all...or most of them. I haven't talked to Skidim yet, (I work till 5 CST) but can they help me get what I need for everything or do I need to do some searching elswhere as well? If anyone has advice of more things I should adress please let me know, but here's my plan:

-Drain tank - if there are any tips on this I have been unable to find a good way to do it
-Replace fuel filter. Any suggestions as far as brand would be helpful, also, the canister that houses the filter has some rust in the bottom and I am assuming that should be replaced as well?
-Rebuild Carb. I have talked to Skidim about this but was unable to order without knowing the List number. I got that now and will order rebuild kit tomorrow. Is skidim the best place for that? I was also looking on Holley's website and can get what I believe I need there, most imortant thing right now is to get the boat in the water ASAP-Safely of course.
-Replace Blower/Blowers. I have two switches on the dash for blowers but only see one in the Engine Bay. Is the other one somewhere else or does my boat only have one blower?
-Replace Bilge. There are tons of options. What's the favorite for my boat?
-Install lags with epoxy. This one intimidates me the most. Is there a way to drill out the engine mount bracket holes to accomodate larger lags? I can't imagine any drill I have will be able to get weasled down in there. Which makes me think it may require pulling the engine to drill the holes. Upon further inspection the stringers are actually in decent condition around the engine. The wood is not as solid as I would like, but I think will last a couple of seasons, but I would still feel more comfortable with new/bigger lags. O! Another peice of "good" news. The engine mounts are missing two lags. The rear mounts only have one horizontal lag per mount....

Anyways. That's my plan. And help/advice is invaluable. Thanks for the help!

[Jetlink]

Believe there was only one blower motor on these boats, as for the bilge, you want at the very least 800-850 GPH pump. Skidim is my go to place for parts and knowledge and that's the key right there, these guys know ski boats.

[wotan2525]

Any holley rebuild kit for your model is fine. The marine kits are the same as the non-marine kits.

Get a syphon or shake house to drain the tank. Drain out the fill port.

Fuel filter and bracket are both available at NAPA. I'd also put in a clear in-line filter near the carb as it will make it much easier to diagnose any issues. It will let you see if it's getting clogged or if the carb isn't getting enough gas under load. Cheap/easy diagnostic tool.

Are you sure you have to drill out the engine mounts larger? Mine worked without problem when I upsized the lag bolts.

[z2smith]

What size lags did you go to? I went from the 3/8 to 1/2 (they didn't have 7/16) and they definately won't go

[gogger]

On the lags i went longer not bigger in diameter.

[villain]

im glad to see your going to make it work! it should be a great boat when everything is worked out. also for the soft motor mounts, check out gitrot. i have not used it myself, but hear it is great. its an epoxy that your poor into the rotten wood that is supposed to solidify everything.

[z2smith]

also for the soft motor mounts, check out gitrot. i have not used it myself, but hear it is great. its an epoxy that your poor into the rotten wood that is supposed to solidify everything.

Thanks! I will look into that.

[jzelt]

10% discount at Skidim. Enter MALIBU, USA, or CENTRALKY in promotion code field on checkout. (More details on their website).

[z2smith]

I am scouring threads trying to understand/figure out what to do with the distributor. I do not have a good understanding of how all that works, so I need some help knowing IF i need to replace and WHAT to replace and what to replace it with.

[Salty87]

what's happening to make you think something is wrong?

this is a pretty good explanation of what's happening in a dsitributor: http://www.howstuffworks.com/ignition-system4.htm

[rideevol]

Marine distributor Advance degrees @ 0-550 = 0; 750=4-6.5; 1000=9.5 degrees; 1500=11.5; 2000 RPM=13.5 degrees.

[z2smith]

It turns out one of the previous owners of my boat had installed a Mallory Electric Ignition distributor. Now I'm just trying to track down a replacement cap and rotor. It's not hard to find parts as much as it is with a deadline I have put on myself. I'm planning on being out on the water on Sat so everything I'm trying to find needs to be available in a day or two. Makes things just that much more challenging. But it's looking like I've got a shot at being out on the water Sat so I'm feeling happy about that.

[villain]

sounds good and promising then! you need to post pics up of the maiden voyage.

[z2smith]

Rebuilt the carb, drained and replaced the gas, new fuel filter, spark plugs, spark plug wires, cap, rotor, new battery and starter lead...and it works beautifully! Took if out on the water and it hauls! Feels good to have a boat that actually works.

[villain]

so killer! kinda bumbed that that boat was only about a week out of my grasp. damn you!! LOL!!

[jasun]

Any update on this????

[z2smith]

Actually yes! After replacing:
-Distributor Cap
-Rotor
-Plugs
-Wires
-Impeller
-Control Cable
-Bilge Pump
-Battery
-Re-Building the carb
-Re-sealing the supertrapps, I now have a boat that keeps up with anything else out on the water! So much of what the PO had on the boat was wrong it's a wonder it even ran at all. It's been a much, much bigger project then I had anticipated when buying, but I decided no matter what I end up doing with the boat I had to fix it. There was no way I was going to pull the same thing on the next guy that the PO pulled on me. I love the boat, and my wife and kids have never had so much fun on the water. It catches lots of attention at the landings, and have gotten several compliments from people with MUCH nicer/newer boats. You really can't beat the classic look of these boats! For now I'm keeping it, but who knows what the future holds...

[jasun]

I hope you keep it long term as you will be hard pressed to find a boat better than the Saltare.

This is what has kept me going on my project Salt!

Glad to hear it is working good for you!! Throw us up some pictures of the Family having fun!!!