92 Sunsport PCM 351 will die at idle, and have to give it extra throttle in "gear".

[trayson]

Okay, so my sunsport sat at the dealer for 2 weeks. When I was finally able to take it out again, I put it in gear and backed it off the trailer, and it died. I restarted and it died. I restarted and it died. It would continue to intermittently have issues where it didn't want to stay running, and many times when putting it into "gear" that one click on the throttle, it would be struggling to turn the prop and transfer power. I had to bump it and give it more throttle to make things engage and for us to move. Also worth noting that this only happens at idle or just in gear. when more throttle is given, it doesn't die. I haven't had any of the issues I've read about in other threads where it dies while going above 'gear'.

Before, it would start on the first time and run with NO issues whatsoever. NEVER died on me in the couple months I've owned it (like 10+ trips).

It's continued to do this for the last two trips. I was worried I'd gotten water in the fuel from having a low breather vent and surf weighting the boat. But I removed the water/fuel separator and there was nothing but gas in there. It was about 3/4 full FWIW. I screwed it back on (note, I didn't refill it with fuel if that matters). I poured a bottle of the HEET into the tank. And yesterday I put in about 17 gallons of new fuel from a different station. (midgrade, but the typical 10% ethanol fuel that all the gas stations have)

I've read another thread where they added a secondary pump. But I'm not sure if that's what's going on here.
https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?14888-fuel-pump-on-2000-comp

It's weird because this problem seemed to come out of nowhere. Oh, one last thing. I have noticed that sometime in the last handful of trips I'd get a HIGH idle occasionally. Like 1300 RPMs. It hasn't done this in the last couple, but it seems like it did the high idle thing before it started doing this dying thing. I figure I'll throw out all the info I can think of in case it is relevant.

What should my next steps be???

Also on a side note, does my engine have a fuel filter somewhere in addition to the water/fuel separator? I'm still a newb when it comes to this engine and still figuring stuff out.

[Jetlink]

My fuel filter is located down in the forward portion of the bilge towards the port side. Should be a spin off type.

[michael hunter]

Is it Carbureted? Does it have points?

[trayson]

Is it Carbureted? Does it have points?

Is has a Holley Carb. It has what look like coilpacks. From what I gather reading other threads, it's the protec system that they make a kit to retrofit it back to a distributor.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6YKc7ETT2Cs/Uc5j4sLL8XI/AAAAAAAAONQ/78OBzC4s9Og/s800/20130628_202015.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HoTAQayj6G4/Uc5kvQHyf_I/AAAAAAAAOOQ/2VkiAVEaots/s800/20130628_201448.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_cGEZ5H87XI/Uc5kVboqGOI/AAAAAAAAOQo/wSj8vwKzBs0/s800/20130628_201405.jpg

[trayson]

My fuel filter is located down in the forward portion of the bilge towards the port side. Should be a spin off type.

Is it the orange one that's below the oil filter and the fuel pump in this pic? I was told that was the water/fuel separator. Are they one in the same? (newb question)

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AS0RwdGnHMw/Uc5kEvFzMoI/AAAAAAAAONo/h9GRS7FMme8/s800/20130628_201501.jpg

[Jetlink]

That looks like it, though not in the location mine is. Follow the line coming into and leaving from that fitting. Bet it goes to the carb though.

[lively]

A few things .. Take more pictures of your protec ignition from the distrubutor .. Is the electric choke working correctly ? ( you adjust on the side by loosing 3 screws faster / slower) Holley 4160 easy to rebuild , three things to adjust ( on the front side of the carb near the belts you have two small fuel mixture screws , turn clock wise till they seat and count how many turns for reference , stock setting is 1-1/2 turn mine are set at 2 but you will need to set that the same on both sides . ) but my main question are you starting it by giving it fuel ? Pumping the throttle ? If you are the cab is not adjusted properly .. If you are not giving it fuel to start then give it some and see what difference you have . ..... High idle ? Always high ? Only when you come off the throttle to idle and it revs up ? Rpm range ?? Update and ill give you some info .


And the fuel filter is that orange thing below the oil filter that is mounted to the stringers .. Just replace it it's worth it .

You have a mechanical fuel pump and that is that silver thing that has the clear tube going back to carb ..

[trayson]

A few things .. Take more pictures of your protec ignition from the distrubutor .. Is the electric choke working correctly ? ( you adjust on the side by loosing 3 screws faster / slower) Holley 4160 easy to rebuild , three things to adjust ( on the front side of the carb near the belts you have two small fuel mixture screws , turn clock wise till they seat and count how many turns for reference , stock setting is 1-1/2 turn mine are set at 2 but you will need to set that the same on both sides . ) but my main question are you starting it by giving it fuel ? Pumping the throttle ? If you are the cab is not adjusted properly .. If you are not giving it fuel to start then give it some and see what difference you have . ..... High idle ? Always high ? Only when you come off the throttle to idle and it revs up ? Rpm range ?? Update and ill give you some info .


And the fuel filter is that orange thing below the oil filter that is mounted to the stringers .. Just replace it it's worth it .

You have a mechanical fuel pump and that is that silver thing that has the clear tube going back to carb ..

I have this picture, but those are coilpacks right? I don't have a distributor as far as I knew...
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-IEFTmV60ZfY/Uc5kAv1xRcI/AAAAAAAAONg/XWNKNiLoRDk/s800/20130628_201422.jpg

If I do have a distributor, where would it be?
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-V-vCIc8V8Sk/Uc5kI-B3PgI/AAAAAAAAONw/UgOkTgoRTBc/s800/20130628_201441.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6xLP6v-VsGQ/UVzUQOVoSSI/AAAAAAAANxw/RZD5mMOe9j0/s800/%255BUNSET%255D.jpg

As far as an electric choke, I have no idea. This is the first thing I've owned that's not had EFI.

The 10 times or so I'd driven the boat since I've owned it, I've never had to pump the throttle before starting it. I would turn the key in neutral and it would start right up perfectly. And it would then run in gear with no lugging or anything. It's only now after it sat 2 weeks. But it had sat a week previously with no issues.

The high idle was around 1200 to 1300 RPM's. I can't say that there was a specific pattern that I noticed of when it would do it though. Sometimes just after cruising a little in gear. But I really didn't notice a pattern, and it did it a handful of times before this stalling thing started happening. Because it wasn't affecting driveability, I'll admit that I didn't pay as close attention to the high idle stuff. I of course will pay more attention now and report back.

YES, I will most certainly change the fuel filter. when I was at the auto parts store, the guy went out with me to look at the engine because I specifically wanted him to look and see if he could find the fuel filter so I could buy a replacement. It wasn't until I got home that I removed the filter to check for water (none present in the fuel) that I did see that there was a part # on the filter element (metal looking round thing). So I'll pull that off and buy one.

I have a friend that owned a Ford performance shop has a ton of experience rebuilding carb's. I'm sure that if I bought a rebuild kit, pulled the carb and took it over to him he'd be happy to do that for me. Just not sure what I need to do beyond

1) replace fuel filter
2) observe and record more symptoms

I don't want to arbitrarily throw money at it (like buying the secondary fuel pump I've read about, or buying the kit that retrofits the pro-tec with a distributor)...

[trayson]

That looks like it, though not in the location mine is. Follow the line coming into and leaving from that fitting. Bet it goes to the carb though.

Yeah, two lines (one hard line and one soft line) go between the carb to the fuel pump (silver just below the alternator) and then from there a hose goes into the filter with the orange lid.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AS0RwdGnHMw/Uc5kEvFzMoI/AAAAAAAAONo/h9GRS7FMme8/s800/20130628_201501.jpg

So it's sounding like a "Fuel Filter" and a "Fuel/water separator" are the same thing???

[Jetlink]

Not necessarily so. The fuel filter is responsible for removing finer particles from the gas before going to the engine while the fuel water separator is a clear glass of sorts that allows you to see the separation that occurs when fuel suspends in water...

Here is a good read short read, kind of like the "Idiot's guide to fuel/water separation."

http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/shoptalk/070451.pdf

[lively]

I have this picture, but those are coilpacks right? I don't have a distributor as far as I knew...
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-IEFTmV60ZfY/Uc5kAv1xRcI/AAAAAAAAONg/XWNKNiLoRDk/s800/20130628_201422.jpg

If I do have a distributor, where would it be?
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-V-vCIc8V8Sk/Uc5kB3PgI/AAAAAAAAONw/UgOkTgoRTBc/s800/20130628_201441.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6xLP6v-VsGQ/UVzUQOVoSSI/AAAAAAAANxw/RZD5mMOe9j0/s800/%255BUNSET%255D.jpg

As far as an electric choke, I have no idea. This is the first thing I've owned that's not had EFI.

The 10 times or so I'd driven the boat since I've owned it, I've never had to pump the throttle before starting it. I would turn the key in neutral and it would start right up perfectly. And it would then run in gear with no lugging or anything. It's only now after it sat 2 weeks. But it had sat a week previously with no issues.

The high idle was around 1200 to 1300 RPM's. I can't say that there was a specific pattern that I noticed of when it would do it though. Sometimes just after cruising a little in gear. But I really didn't notice a pattern, and it did it a handful of times before this stalling thing started happening. Because it wasn't affecting driveability, I'll admit that I didn't pay as close attention to the high idle stuff. I of course will pay more attention now and report back.

YES, I will most certainly change the fuel filter. when I was at the auto parts store, the guy went out with me to look at the engine because I specifically wanted him to look and see if he could find the fuel filter so I could buy a replacement. It wasn't until I got home that I removed the filter to check for water (none present in the fuel) that I did see that there was a part # on the filter element (metal looking round thing). So I'll pull that off and buy one.

I have a friend that owned a Ford performance shop has a ton of experience rebuilding carb's. I'm sure that if I bought a rebuild kit, pulled the carb and took it over to him he'd be happy to do that for me. Just not sure what I need to do beyond

1) replace fuel filter
2) observe and record more symptoms

I don't want to arbitrarily throw money at it (like buying the secondary fuel pump I've read about, or buying the kit that retrofits the pro-tec with a distributor)... don't fix it , if it ain't broke! Hook it up to the house in the driveway . Run it and get it warm , shut it off , start it up .. What happens ? Lol .... Change the filter and adjust the carb how I told ya . Trust me these Holley carbs are a piece of cake . And once adjusted right you won't have to touch it again . YouTube has a lot of instructional videos if you would like some 101 .. But I want a picture of that electronic pick up !!! Where the distributor goes ? What's it called ? Timing looks to still be controlled by it . Take pics and report back after the driveway run

[jasun]

Trust me these Holley carbs are a piece of cake
+1

I had never even touched a carb before I had my salt and I rebuilt my Holley without any problems at all. If you are mechincal at all, you will be just fine.

On the fuel filter, I had a hell of a time trying to find a replacement (when i bought the boat, I opened up the canister and it was empty!!).

For reference, here is the one I bought: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AMW0LK/ref=oh_details_o03_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[trayson]

+1

I had never even touched a carb before I had my salt and I rebuilt my Holley without any problems at all. If you are mechincal at all, you will be just fine.

On the fuel filter, I had a hell of a time trying to find a replacement (when i bought the boat, I opened up the canister and it was empty!!).

For reference, here is the one I bought: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AMW0LK/ref=oh_details_o03_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I would imagine that mine won't be too hard. I remember seeing a part # from one of the big chain auto parts stores on the filter that's in there, so I'll just have to pop it out and take it with me.

[whammond]

This is likely your fuel filter....http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=R080008.

Adjust your mixture screws equally (small little guys near the front of the carb on either side), screw them both all the way in then back them out one and a half turns to start. Your idle speed screw will be larger and is located on the port side of the carb near the throttle cable. Adjust it to your desire idle speed, I sit around 800 if I remember correctly. Note that your rpm's will drop right when you put it in gear.

The electronic choke opens up the choke plates at the top of the carb (take off the flame arrestor and you will see it). When the engine is cold, the plate should be essentially closed. Once your engine warms up, the plate should be vertical and wide open to allow for air.

Diagnose and check the cheap things first. Hopefully it isn't your protech ignition going out. My '92 with the same engine experienced some weird things (hard to start, would die the second I put it in gear, etc.) and that ended up being the cause.

[kreed57]

I have a 1991 Sunsport with the exact same setup. I had a high idle issue and it turned out to be that the secondary throttle
blades were opening just a little bit. It drove me crazy because the primaries would be closed against the idle screw and it
does not have a distributor with a mechanical advance so that was not it. Doah, the linkage was kind of dirty and had never
been touched. A little WD40 down where the throtlle blade shafts come out of the base and presto no more high idle. YOur
linkage looks just like mine did, shoot some wd40 in there.:cool:

[trayson]

So, I changed the fuel filter and also sprayed some carb clean on the linkages then shot them with some tri-flow. I also cleaned the air filter thing (metal) and shot a bunch of carb cleaner down the carb when it was running.

The low idle wanting to die symptoms are still causing me grief.

I talked to Vince at SkiDIM (he's a rockstar) and we eliminated the Pro-Tec coilpacks as the issue. The symptoms I'm getting are not the same as what he's seen with those.

He's going to have me look for dripping fuel in the carb to see if it's not vaporizing. He's also going to have me disconnect the line between the fuel pump and the fuel filter and run that line into a can of good, clean gas. If the problems go away, that means that the issues are upstream from the fuel pump. Then the culprits would be stuff like the anti-siphon valve and other things like that...

So, it's still a PITA and it's definitely not running great. BUT, it's not enough to keep me off the water and we're having a blast with the boat.

[jeffkaasmason]

Hey Trayson,

I have the same boat as you but not quite as nice looking as yours. I did have issues with it last year when I took it out. It would not start sometimes and when it did it would die at high speed. I also had to pump the throttle to get it to stay running when I put it in gear. Sounds like slightly different symptoms than yours. I found that the "position crank sensor (https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?11476-1992-Sunsport-won-t-start&p=79814#post79814)" had a crack in it so I bought a new one for $37 and a carb kit for $54. I had the carb rebuilt and replaced the "position crank sensor" and it seems to be running fine this year. I also cleaned all the electrical terminals.

The reason I thought the position crank sensor was causing issues was because if I touched the wire leading to it the engine would die or run quite ruff.

Jeff

[trayson]

A few things .. Take more pictures of your protec ignition from the distrubutor .. Is the electric choke working correctly ? ( you adjust on the side by loosing 3 screws faster / slower) Holley 4160 easy to rebuild , three things to adjust ( on the front side of the carb near the belts you have two small fuel mixture screws , turn clock wise till they seat and count how many turns for reference , stock setting is 1-1/2 turn mine are set at 2 but you will need to set that the same on both sides . ) but my main question are you starting it by giving it fuel ? Pumping the throttle ? If you are the cab is not adjusted properly .. If you are not giving it fuel to start then give it some and see what difference you have . ..... High idle ? Always high ? Only when you come off the throttle to idle and it revs up ? Rpm range ?? Update and ill give you some info .


And the fuel filter is that orange thing below the oil filter that is mounted to the stringers .. Just replace it it's worth it .

You have a mechanical fuel pump and that is that silver thing that has the clear tube going back to carb ..

So, I only had one morning in the boat to try some stuff. I had replaced the fuel filter and that didn't help. So the next trip I put the carbs at 1.5 turns as you suggested. I also gave it a FULL tank of non-ethanol 92 gas. It seemed to run pretty well. But later that morning I sucked water into my leaking tranny, so the boat's been out of comission since.