First time out and same issues as last year.... [Archive]

jasun

07-03-2013, 11:16 PM

ran into an issue last year with the Carb. It would seem as though it was flooding the throats with gas. after I would turn off the engine, gas would pour into the secondaries. I have the Holley 4160. I bought a rebuild kit and rebuilt it and thought it was fixed.

Well tonight was the first time out on the water and it idled well and went good slow, then got out onto the sport lake and gunned it... it did good for about a min and then felt like it wanted to bog out... got it started again and the same thing... looking under the flame arrestor i could see the gas sitting in the throat. I was not giving it gas at all... Sat at the sand bar for awhile and got it started again, but had to keep the throttle at about 1900 RPM's or else it would die. Got it in gear and took off across the water again and i could hear it back firing under the dog house. I fast idled back to the launce (if i went under 9mph it would die)... when i got it back to the launch, it died and would not start again... same thing, gas sitting in the throats...

Here is what I have so far.

All new fuel line, filter and gas, new vent hose...
Rebuilt the carb last year and one of the needle seats was plugged.

I plant to take it apart agian and make sure it is all clean and adjust the floats to the lowest point.

I know nothing about timing, but I assume this would have nothing to do with it sputtering out and back fireing?

I worked on the boat for 9 months (sans the engine) and still have the same problem i had last fall...

Any ideas before I listen to my brother in law and just replace the Holley with an Edelbrock....

Jetlink

07-03-2013, 11:39 PM

Listen to your brother in law...problem solved. I had an issue with my Holley that sounds just like your problem. I threw parts at the Holley in the form of rebuild kits and everything. Finally I admitted defeat with the Holley and swapped it for an Edlebrock and I could not be happier about the swap.

z2smith

07-04-2013, 12:35 AM

I 2nd the Holley. I found a local guy that's a pro at rebuilding carbs and he swears by Holley carbs. He helped me rebuild mine and it works amazing. There's lots of shops that can take your carb and rebuild it for you and tune it up for about 200 bucks. Way better way to spend money then on a lesser carb.

Jetlink

07-04-2013, 01:53 AM

If your secondaries are flooding out and dripping fuel like mine always would do. Try capping the fuel line running into your secondaries and see if that allows the boat to run smoother. Also, it might be an issue of a faulty float that might have a puncture in it and therefore it is basically commanding full gas from the secondaries.

DAFF

07-04-2013, 09:12 AM

I would watch a few videos on how to set the float on a Holley carb. Sounds to me the engine is drowning in fuel. You might be just one step away from a great working engine. Don't give up, determination is the key.

jasun

07-04-2013, 09:20 AM

I agree that I dont want to throw $$$ at it to get the same results. There was an obvious problem the late time I rebuilt it.
The seat was plugged up...
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad38/jasunderland/Johnson-20120929-00094.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/jasunderland/media/Johnson-20120929-00094.jpg.html)

I tested both floats last time and neither sank... so i ruled out buying new floats... I dont mind putting some more time in it but I am seriously thinking about replacing it if I cant get it figured out.

Jet, when you say cap off the secondaries, what did you use?

Can i rule out Timing or anything with the engine and just keep it isolated to the Carb?

Jetlink

07-04-2013, 11:07 AM

Fuel line caps is what I believe I used. I carried a set with with me every time I went out, that's how infuriated I was with the issue.

It doesn't sound like a true timing issue to me just yet, it totally sounds like the secondaries are hosing you.

chris young

07-04-2013, 11:32 AM

I was composing this while Jetlink was posting his reply so it reads a bit funny.

The backfiring caught my attention, all my carburator experience is 30 years old, and I haven't had to work on tuning my engine since I got out this spring so by no means am I an expert, but IMHO you really should try to adjust the timing at some point during this process. Still if there's gas in the carb, you definitely have a problem there as well so I would try to solve that first. I'm with DAFF, lot's of videos on the Holley site to get you going. I pulled this one up on a quick search. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M92CGjpiMs4

Just because the float isn't sinking doesn't mean the needle and seat are closing when the float is up. It really could be that you simply need to properly adjust the floats.

Good luck.

I'll be tuning next time I'm at the cottage as I'm idling way too fast, and I'm guessing that the PO just turned up the curb idle to keep it running, which means something else is wrong, like idle mixture or timing or both and I need to fix that. The boat is mostly used to ski, and a high idle makes for a lot of work for the driver.

FULL-THROTTLE

07-05-2013, 07:37 AM

I recently went through the exact same problem and it turned out to be the coil, the engine ran ok for 3-4 minutes then would not idle below 2k rpms, it smelled like fuel and back fired through the carb and sometimes would not start. Can you borrow a coil from another engine?? cheap way to check.

gogger

07-05-2013, 09:39 AM

Well my boat was horrible last year as far as idling. Pretty much no one could keep it going to get a boarder up. And docking was horrible, it wouldn't idle at all. So I decided to replace my Carb. Jess is a Edelbrock guy, I personally don't care as long as it will run. Summit Racing had the Holley in stock would have had to wait a week for the edelbrock. So I ordered the Holley at 9:45 pm. When I got home from work the next day it was sitting in my garage. Less than 24 hours for delivery. And my boat has never ran better. Glad I just replaced it. But I might send the old one out for rebuild just to have a spare. And yes Summit Racing sells Marine Carbs.

jasun

07-06-2013, 08:38 PM

well i tore it apart tonightand found that the primary seat was nearly cloged with junk. Same thing I found last year when I rebuilt it. I rebuilt it and fired it up last yearbefore realizing that there was no fuel filter in it. So I am guessing that all of that is atributed to the 10 min I ran it last year as it now has a new filter.

Set the floats to Holley's specs and the secondaries were still filling up like crazy. Took the back bowl off and adjusted the secondary float to an excess gap to see what would happen and it started but idled hard and no gas was going to the secondaries at all.

My dad and I are going to put it in the water tomorow and check the timing, and tune the carb... we will see if that helps.

I have a question about one of the vacuum lines.. the one that runs from under the front of the carb... When I take the tube off of the carb and pull the valve it is attached to and blow in it, i get a small leak out of the fitting... it is suppsoed to be air tight?

I will see if I can find someone to borrow a coil from and see if that is it...

Ill post how it goes tomorrow. Wish me luck!!

Also, i noticed it seemed like there was alot of white smoke (more then normal) coming from the exhaust.... it just started it after I took the carb off... any thoughts on that??

jasun

07-07-2013, 07:06 PM

Well a disappointing day today.... I am goign to summarize it...

Positives:
compression check turned out what I thought was good... Each one was 140-145.
Timing was at 8 degrees... (checked a source and it is suppsoed to be 9... I think ) so i was happy with that

Negative

Holley

took it apart and cleaned it all up, set the floats to factory specs and put it back on. Ran like a champ on the hose. hooked up a carb tune to it and adjusted the air fuel mix screws and got it dialed in.. It kept wanting to change idles on me.
Took it to the lake and put it in and it wanted to start and run hard.... Got out in open water and shot the juice to it and nothing happened... wouldnt rev over 2K RPMs... then it wouldnt stay on at idle unless i had the throttle floored and even then, it would only rev to 1K rpms.. made it back to the ramp and pulled it out.

Got home and checked the fuel filter as it seemed there was no fuel getting delivered to it... filter was good. moved to the pump and it pumped just fine...

I think I have had it with the Holley...
Anyone which model of the Eldelbrock I need for the 454?

I am gettting very flustered....

Jetlink

07-07-2013, 08:10 PM

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/carbs_acc/marine.shtml

750CFM with electric choke... Boom!!!

jasun

07-07-2013, 09:04 PM

Thanks for the quick response!

DAFF

07-07-2013, 11:23 PM

Before you get a new carb... You almost had it. Yes it can be frustrating but sometimes you need to step back and rethink all your steps. By changing more than one thing to can change too many perameters and screw things up that were perfect to begin with. If the carb isn't getting any fuel then the floats are closed. On land it ran fine because there wasn't much demand for fuel and on the lake you sucked the bowl dry.

jasun

07-08-2013, 08:16 AM

It is very Frustrating....

It got worse the longer i was on the water. I am not exaggerating to say I had to the hammer down the whole way and was going 3 mph, but that was the only way I could get it to go. It looked like there was fuel coming from the carb, but the engine acted like it was starving for fuel...

angus2112

07-08-2013, 08:25 AM

ok still think you have a carb problem if you would like we can get together this weekend i have everything to swap to pin point whats going

chris young

07-08-2013, 09:15 AM

I'm with DAFF on this one, before it seemed like you were flooding, then you set the floats, then you were starving. another thing to consider is the gunk that you've cleaned out twice. If you've found it in the filter, then it's been elsewhere. You could end up putting a brand new carb on there and then clogging it with more gunk. You must be getting good at pulling that carb apart, I'd give it one more try.

I'd take angus2112 up on his offer, what a champ!

IMHO if you do buy a new carb, it makes more sense to buy a Holley. Not because Holley is better than Edlebrock, but because you'll have 2 identical carbs, if you get a full rebuild on your current Holley, then you'll have a solid working spare. If not, you'll have spare parts for your new one. Plus, you're already familiar with the Holley.

jasun

07-08-2013, 07:30 PM

Mark, Ill take you up on your offer! Just let me know a time!

lively

07-10-2013, 12:07 AM

jasun , i just had the same issue with fuel delivery about 2 weeks ago ... now calm down .... breathe and take notes ....

4160 holley marine witch has vacuum secondaries and electric choke , bowl vents are rounded back into ventures ... this is a marine carb .... so this is how to set it

timing : my ford likes 10 BTDC others run fine at 7-9 set it and leave it (at idle)

4160 holley : your bowls do not have adjusters for the floats thus preventing fuel spillage , but what is does have is a in-cased needle and seat , with a float , float return spring and needle tang .... on these marine units they are never level like a auto .. therefore gravity and vacuum together help overflowing alot !!!

take it apart and go to the sink (with the bowls) fill with warm water and dip and see where it floats and seals the inlet ... now holley says to make them level and you should be all set .. I set the tang just as it almost reaches level and blow through and make sure it seats, also check your bowl tube that connects from bowl to bowl for the fuel to reach the secondaries , rubber grommets need some spit or lube going in .. do not tear or push hard ..... ... now assemble and turn your mixtures all the way in ...... and 2 turns out to start with ....start it up and run it bring it to idle and see if it stays at 700-900 idle .. then adjust the mechanical throttle plate idle adjustment screw to that specified range ...

lake test : if it falls on its face out of the hole adjust the accelerator pump action .. try it again ... what rpm is top speed and what is top speed ? these holleys man are soooooooooooooo simple .. drink a beer and think it over .... edlecock suxs and we all know it :) but love there intakes ...

Moor

07-15-2013, 05:46 PM

The only reason why edelbrocks suck is because someone doesnt know how to tune them lol (j/k, kind of)..... I have 2 big blocks running edelbrocks and id NEVER think about putting a holley back on. EVER. Yes their intakes rock.

FULL-THROTTLE

07-17-2013, 02:27 PM

Any new news?? is it fixed

jasun

07-17-2013, 04:15 PM

Getting there.... lol
Replaced the Carb with an Eldelbrock...
Still having the issue...

Replaced the Distributor with one from Angus2112's Salt. I think the springs in mine are bad as there is play in the rotor.. Got the timing set this morning but it wont fire...
I am now leaving work to go to Napa and get my fuel pump as the one on there was not squirting any fuel... We will see what is next! :-(:-(:-(

jasun

07-17-2013, 10:59 PM

got the fuel pump installed! only question i have is the small port that looks like a vaccum hose, what does it connect to?

http://s.ecrater.com/stores/95731/4cdff8beaf8cf_95731n.jpg

The old one had just what seemed like a vaccum line that went to the flame arrestor, so i hooked this one to it and it just poured out gas into the top of the carb....

Sdc77

07-18-2013, 04:30 AM

It's not a vaccum port dude, it's a security to inform you that the pump is dead. When fuel start to go out of this hose, it's that the valve inside is leaking. Then you can change the pump.

It's connected to the flame arrestor to leak in the engine instead of in the boat ...

If you can, choose a translucent hose to see fuel going through it

Sdc77

07-18-2013, 04:42 AM

I had exactly the same problem as you in the past on my first boat with a VOLVO PENTA AQ145B. Gas was going out from this hose and made the engine impossible to start when hot.
So i connect this hose back to the fuel tank, and no more hot issues. But I read later on the owner's guide that when it through gas from there, the pump is dead, I immediatly changed it. Because first symptom is leaking for the hose, and then you can have fuel leaking in oïl, and explosion can happen !!!

jasun

07-18-2013, 07:16 AM

Really? I just plugged it because I just bought the thing yesterday... I will call napa and see if they will take it back and get me a new one.

Thanks man!

jasun

07-18-2013, 08:17 AM

Well after putting the new fuel pump on I got it fired up... Had my timing light out ready to go to check the timing and when I went to walk around behind the motor, the cord of the light was grabbed by the alternator and long story short, i now have no timing light.... So I did it by ear the best as I could.
Put it in the water and it would run fine (although high idle) in neutral but if i just put it in gear, it would want to die unless i had it at about 1200 RPMs...

Got out to the speed lake and it would backfire through the carb at anything above 2500 rpm.. Swam a little bit at the sand bar and it fired right up, but would idle at close to 1800 rpm. it stopped backfiring though and had it up to 3600 rpm at one point without any issues... when I would bring it back to neutral, it would idle close to 2000 rpm... when it was just in gear it was running at close to 1100 rpm.

I adjusted the idle while it was gear and got it to where it would idle in gear at about 700 rpm and in neutral, at about 600 or so. Made it a lot easier to get on the trailer that way...

I was very please with how it ran (other then the fuel pump spewing gas through the vent hose). I dont want to get my hopes up too much so my nephew and I are taking it out again tonight to test it one more time...

I will let you know the final conclusion tonight or tomorrow.

jasun

07-18-2013, 01:19 PM

Sdc77

07-18-2013, 05:36 PM

If it's new and fuel goes out of it, don't hesitate, run a line back to the tank. Don't let this fuel goes to the engine, for sure it will cause running troubles.

Anyway, my old Volvo pump had this hose through fuel, brand new, no more fuel from here.

Same on the Saltare, nothing goes out of this hose.

jasun

07-22-2013, 07:51 AM

Just a quick update, here is what I saw.

After i changed the Carb, still had the issues of it back firing. Replaced the Distributor and the resistor and it would not start. Replaced the fuel pump and got it started. Lost my timing gun to the fly wheel (Doh!!!) so timed it by ear.

Got it out on the lake Wed and fine tuned the timing under load.
Was out on the lake Thursday with no issues except a high idle after getting on it. Found out I hooked my return spring to the wrong part of the throttle on the Edelbrock so changed that.
Went out Friday night and ran great. Waked boareded Sat morning for about 3-4 hours with 7 ppl she ran like a champ. Went out yesterday morning and still no issues.

It finally feels good to have a nice boat that runs...

Sdc77

07-22-2013, 09:26 AM

Yeah jasun ! Hope you will enjoy your boat now and stop loosing time on the engine !
Do you have the Wake plate on your boat ? How is the Wake size with people in it ?

jasun

07-22-2013, 10:46 AM

I still have the wakeplate and have not adjusted it yet. I think it is about flat with the bottom of the boat right now.

Last summer I was going behind a 16' Glastron with an 80hp outboard so the wake looked like a Wall compared to that! lol

Here are a couple pics.

http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad38/jasunderland/Summer%202013/IMG_1896_zps2df9cfd5.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/jasunderland/media/Summer%202013/IMG_1896_zps2df9cfd5.jpg.html)

I was on the wake skate....
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad38/jasunderland/Summer%202013/IMG_2008_zpsa18b559b.jpg (http://s919.photobucket.com/user/jasunderland/media/Summer%202013/IMG_2008_zpsa18b559b.jpg.html)