Used Boats of the Future

[chrisk]

This is something I was thinking about the other day and was interested to hear everyone's opinion.

So it's pretty common to be able to pick up a fairly nice, bone stock 80's Supra Sunsport (for example) for around $5-6K. We all usually have to put towers on them and stereos and lights and ballast and accessories and on and on and on. What I'm curious about, what will Used Boat Buying be like say 28 years from now? (I used 28 because that's how old my boat is).

I don't have the answer, thus why I'm asking the question, and I'll try to post some thoughts about it below:

In 1985 a brand new Supra didn't cost as much, relatively, as a brand new Supra does today. I know there's been inflation and all, but the price of the boats has been inflating much faster than the inflation of the US dollar. So what will used boats cost in 28 years?

In 1985 brand new Supras came with pretty standard, mechanical dash instruments, usually in circles. Today, every boat manufacturer has custom made LCD touch screens with hundreds of functions and crazy complicated ECU's. Boats deteriorate faster than cars, relative to their use, and so it's necessary to buy worn out parts over time. What will parts buying be like in 28 years?

What will the dynamic of brand loyalty be like in 28 years? Right now, I feel pretty brand loyal to Supra and Moomba, however I don't know why? My boat was made probably under a different set of management, with probably different tooling, nothing is the same anymore. I suppose the brand loyalty comes from my involvement on this forum, but SC barely even pays attention to the two forums, and it seems much more so the Moomba. So, I have a boat that shares exactly nothing in common with the boats that Supra is constructing today, I receive zero support/recognition in my ownership of a 28 year old relic, and yet I feel brand loyal. What will it be like in 28 years when the pinnacle of water sports boats has risen even further, and lowest point of old used boats has dropped further in the past?

I know I'm rambling, it's early, but I think it's an interesting topic. Thanks for entertaining me.

If you think I'm wrong about anything, PLEASE, correct me or let me know why.

[Salty87]

scary to think what the lcd screens will be like in 28 yrs. doubtful they'll last that long so they will have been replaced, maybe a few times. parts prices probably won't come down too much as the numbers aren't there for after-market suppliers to get into the market.

i suspect i'll have a 50+ yr old supra by then. the classic supras have shown they have timeless looks and the mechanicals are simple enough to survive. how will a pickle fork look to us in 28 yrs?

[Jetlink]

how will a pickle fork look to us in 28 yrs?

Still look like a pickle fork and still ugly in my eyes. Maybe it will take 29 years to grow on me...

[chrisk]

It's interesting because we're all taking these old boats and constantly ADDING things.

The "used boats of the future" will have come straight from the factory with all these things. Things such as towers, speakers, ballast, etc. So 28 years is a long time for those parts to break down.

Sure the boats today are built a lot better. But will as many be in operation on the water due to maintenance costs?

[haugy]

Sure the boats today are built a lot better. But will as many be in operation on the water due to maintenance costs?

I'm going to beg to differ with you there. They are built with more advanced components, but not better.

I've seen more issues with the newer boats than I have in any of mine. And I'm not talking about electrical gremlins and high-tech failures. I'm talking about hull seperations, delaminations, strut mis-alignments, flimsy helm stations, etc.

I've seen the older ones take hits and keep coming. While they are inferior in advanced components, as stated by Salty, that inferiority is what makes them last. Simplicity.
They were built super strong because they wanted to storm the market with a new design. They didn't focus on streamlining the timeline to build, or cutting every cost for profit. They were built as barnstormers to the heavily dominated MC and Nautique market. And they did. That energetic passion and ambition built some of the best boats I've seen. I've run MC's and Nautiques and when you put them side by side they can all last if maintained, but which one has the style over the others? Which one has the better hull structure and design over the others? Supra.

I don't think we will see the resurgence of these more modern boats since most of the "add-ons" are a fad. Almost everyday I regret putting a tower on my boat. But I use it for more than just looks and wakeboarding. So it has value. But these newer ones, nah, they won't have the following. They don't last like the older ones do. I'm not bashing on the new ones, just comparing the way of building from one generation to the next. It's just like cars. Cars back in the 60's and 70's were built to be awesome, not built to cut costs to increase profit margins.

If I pick up another Supra, it will be back to stock for it.

[chrisk]

I agree with some of that and disagree with other parts of it. I like your statement comparing them to cars of the 60's and 70's, which were "built to be awesome." I think that is true. But the big thing that eats at me as far as build quality goes is wood. The 80's were obviously the days of wooden stringers, wooden seat frames, wooden everything. There are no wood pieces on new boats unless it's teak and a platform at the back of the boat.

That said, I believe a Supra pulled off the line today would last longer, structurally, than a Supra pulled off the line of yesteryear.

[chrisk]

I think the reason I've enjoyed my Supra so much is that it was a blank canvas for me to begin with... and I know this is purely a statement for the crowd that likes to customize boats. A used boat of the future might not be as "fun" to own for a person like me. Haugy, I know people like you have completely different reasons for ownership - function, pride, and sustaining classic design among those reasons, correct?

[haugy]

Very true. No doubt about that. But they were built with what commonplace and available. Wood can be replaced. Poor structural design or misalignments can't.

I may have misunderstood your question. Will they last? Sure, there isn't much to rot or wither away like you said. But will they last in operational status and still be running? I'm leaning towards less likely. With foreign components, inferior metals, and cheapest bid pieces they just are built to last the test of time.

[Jetlink]

They are built to be reliable as long as the warranty plus a few months to a year. Then it's $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[chrisk]

Wood can be replaced. Poor structural design or misalignments can't.

I like that ^^^.

As far as my question goes, I don't really know what the question is. Just curious to hear predictions about what the used water sports boat scene will be like.

Hopefully this "phenomenon" doesn't lead to the demise of water sports. The way I see it, good used ski boats are getting fewer and "farrer" between, just because of time. So, as the number of boats with manageable cost of ownership decline - cost of ownership of the average ski/wake boat will continue to rise as time goes on. Basically, owning a 28 year old boat, 28 years from now will cost more, relatively, than it does for me to own a 28 year old boat now. So, I personally see that as a severe threat to the water sports industry, as it exists now.

That make sense to anyone else?

[wotan2525]

I think you need to break down the individual systems on boats to figure out what is going to hold value and what is going to lose value. I also think we've entered another "new generation" of boats in the last couple of years when the independent systems began to become integrated into a central control/computer. The vectoring rudders/skegs, surf gates, speed control with ballast integration, etc are all going to detract from the value of used boats in a few years. These sytems are going to be great as long as they are under warranty, but once OEM support/parts dries up -- you're going to be proper SCREWED.

It's not a problem that will be independent to the marine industry, however -- so there is hope. All industries are now fully saturated with integrated electronics. As these systems begin to break down and fail, I suspect that niche businesses will blossom that can repair/replace these systems will emerge. There will certainly be a demand for it.

Certain systems are going to be fine, though. All of the engine and engine management components have been used so extensively that they will be continued to be available and supported. Are they more complicated? Of course. But people will figure out ways to work on these systems and keep them going.

Compare the market with that of cars -- there isn't a huge pricing gap between old "simple" cars and newer cars with complex, integrated systems. People aren't junking their new cars because older cars are easier to work on. The trade off of better convenience, economy, function and comfort comes with having more stuff to break and repair bills sometimes being higher. It's just the way things are now.

[Salty87]

no doubt composite won't rot but were the floors/hulls/supports built stout enough to last 28+ yrs? will the floors under ballast tank locations survive that long? if they suffer stress failures are they easily repairable? i don't know enough about the design and construction to even guess. i'd like to think they were but as you guys have mentioned keeping costs down is a big goal when the manufacturing process gets more complicated. there's also more resin in these hulls/floors and that's only gotten more expensive over time. i have to assume that some areas have been thinned where the engineers think appropriate.

bolt-ons for longevity's sake are a good design. integrated components are more of a roll of the dice. i've never pulled a floor on a new boat. how easy is it to get to the gas tank? i've seen pics, gas tanks are plastic nowadays. same goes with any boats that have ballast under the floors. if there are tanks, are they reachable?

[Jetlink]

It makes perfect sense to me, it's kind of like watching all the elements come together to form a perfect storm as it were. The boat manufacturers might be doing an excellent job at pricing themselves out of most people's budget like you say in the future as the used boat market will be a totally different landscape than what we find today. Heck, even a new boat comparable to the comp would set me back somewhere around $40-50 grand. How much is that really going to depreciate in the eyes of a seller years from now?

[DAFF]

30 years from now the computer and technology will be 15 times more powerful than todays with the current growth pattern. With this aspect the boats of today will be very much comparable to those of the 80's to now. I cannot see much of a change in the general propulsion method in water and the hull design rather than with fuel preservation or engine type. As for the restoration of todays boats in the future, the largest issue will be the interiors and gel coat restorations.

Watersports of tomorrow will have the biggest influence to the way one might restore a boat of today 20-30 from now. Who knows perhaps technology will squash the internal combustion engine by then.....

[chrisk]

http://www.nautique.com/Press/index/nautique-increases-production-and-hiring

[Supra_Comp]

My $.02 is simple mechanics will stand the test of time and can be repaired easily and relatively cost effectively, hence why so many people are restoring classic era Supra's. The big problem is that your chance of finding a non-abused wake/ski boat in this day and age is next to impossible, and no one will want a boat that needs new LCD screens, computer tuning, etc.

"They don't make them like they used too".

[2500HD]

30 yrs from now i probably won't be able to use a boat, so i'm not to concerned:D Really though, what we do wrenching on boats is what the kids will do with computers so it will probably be about the same.

[vvfdfirefighter]

Funny I ran across this. As I was just talking about this the other day. Well price wise that is.

I bought my first Supra 11 years ago, by then it was 15 years old and spend the prior 4 years in dry storage. Roped it for 6K. It wasn't everything I wanted. Closed bow wasn't on my list but I bought it because of the look of it and the reputation supra has. I was tired of seeing MC dominate our river and I wanted something that would turn heads.

11 years later, now 26 years old, I'm just starting to have a few problems with it every year. Vinyl is cracking, couple sift spots in the floor but that 454 will still throw a wake and she still turns heads every day. I'm always getting offers to buy it.

As I sit here and look to upgrade, I'm distraught by how plain looking boats have become. No teak trim, everything seems to be fiberglass and bare. However, to buy a 12-15 year old boat today, I'm going to have to dump 3-4 times the money than I ever had. That's crazy. Especially when you hear all the electronic problems and maintained now is limited to the owner, since everything is computer operated.

I don't regret buying that Supra Maurader back 11 years ago. But I tell you, I wish it was open bow because I'd gladly dump 12K in it and keep riding a beautiful 1st Gen than a plain looking supra with all It's GPS navigation and blue tooth and YouTube abilities.

Just my opinion!

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note II through Tapatalk

[villain]

Funny I ran across this. As I was just talking about this the other day. Well price wise that is.

I bought my first Supra 11 years ago, by then it was 15 years old and spend the prior 4 years in dry storage. Roped it for 6K. It wasn't everything I wanted. Closed bow wasn't on my list but I bought it because of the look of it and the reputation supra has. I was tired of seeing MC dominate our river and I wanted something that would turn heads.

11 years later, now 26 years old, I'm just starting to have a few problems with it every year. Vinyl is cracking, couple sift spots in the floor but that 454 will still throw a wake and she still turns heads every day. I'm always getting offers to buy it.

As I sit here and look to upgrade, I'm distraught by how plain looking boats have become. No teak trim, everything seems to be fiberglass and bare. However, to buy a 12-15 year old boat today, I'm going to have to dump 3-4 times the money than I ever had. That's crazy. Especially when you hear all the electronic problems and maintained now is limited to the owner, since everything is computer operated.

I don't regret buying that Supra Maurader back 11 years ago. But I tell you, I wish it was open bow because I'd gladly dump 12K in it and keep riding a beautiful 1st Gen than a plain looking supra with all It's GPS navigation and blue tooth and YouTube abilities.

Just my opinion!

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note II through Tapatalk

You said it perfect. I work at a tige dealer and would rather take my Sunsport out than the shops z3. Cheeper on gas, more reliable ballast and options, and will still do everything that the 100k boat will do. Most if the time just as good.

[biggsie]

The wealthy folks that have the lake house and spoiled kids will continue to buy the newest tech every few years. These high tech boats will hold value for many years. At some point this "value " will drop like a rock due to expensive repairs and service. I expect to see a 10-15 yr old Moomba or Axis that needs some TLC depreciate from 60-70k down to 12-15k if they sell enough of them.

I know it is not the same but ... My 2004 Suburban cost about 50k 10 years ago. Now it's worth less than 10k and it is in great shape. FYI I purchased it for 12 about 3 years ago.

If I could justify a high boat payment I would have a new one every few years, but I can't so I have a 28 year old Supra that will do almost anything a new one can. And it's paid for!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[trayson]

You said it perfect. I work at a tige dealer and would rather take my Sunsport out than the shops z3. Cheeper on gas, more reliable ballast and options, and will still do everything that the 100k boat will do. Most if the time just as good.

Well, I for one am looking forward to having more and more V-drives drop into that $10k to $20k range. While my sunsport will kinda do everything the $100k boats will, there are most certainly things that I want out of a newer boat that mine doesn't have:

Fuel Injection
V-drive
Rear storage lockers which will allow the installation of HIDDEN hard plumbed auto ballast.


That's more or less it. But being able to sack it up for surfing without having to manually fill bags and without having bags laying around everywhere taking up people space. Being able to fill/drain on the fly so you're not wasting ride time or daylight waiting for your ballast.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Sunsport and it's been a pretty versitle and amazing boat that I don't regret. But my future is in a v-drive.

[michael hunter]

When George Fowler started Supra in 1982 it was a passion driven company . George didn't build for high profit he built to the highest quality and unique design . Unfortunately he is a better boat builder than a business man. Supra today is just like most other company's bottom line is a big factor in the build . That dosnt mean they build a bad boat but as haugy pointed out with the cars there are very few Classics being built these days . Most company produce cookie cutter look alike models to sell for profit. Much like a 95 Taurus it was just an OK car it did the job but very forgettable and who would want to restore one in 28 years. I agree there isn't much buzz with the newer Supra owners.The Moomba guys are much more passionate. I cant say the company is to blame but they don't do much to fire up the stoke. Look at Harley Davidson they don't build the best bike but they do more to promote the lifestyle than any other builder. I think my wife said it best some company's just want to sell their boat the best ones just sell fun.

[trayson]

When George Fowler started Supra in 1982 it was a passion driven company . George didn't build for high profit he built to the highest quality and unique design . Unfortunately he is a better boat builder than a business man. Supra today is just like most other company's bottom line is a big factor in the build . That dosnt mean they build a bad boat but as haugy pointed out with the cars there are very few Classics being built these days . Most company produce cookie cutter look alike models to sell for profit. Much like a 95 Taurus it was just an OK car it did the job but very forgettable and who would want to restore one in 28 years. I agree there isn't much buzz with the newer Supra owners.The Moomba guys are much more passionate. I cant say the company is to blame but they don't do much to fire up the stoke. Look at Harley Davidson they don't build the best bike but they do more to promote the lifestyle than any other builder. I think my wife said it best some company's just want to sell their boat the best ones just sell fun.

Very, very well said. I agree, I have seen that passion from the Moomba owners. I think it's because SC gave them a unique identity that they could embrace... They have a line of boats that are in that "bang for the buck" category. A way to get performance into the hands of people that don't have quite as deeper pockets. Moomba owners seem to be quite proud of that value proposition.

New Supra's are fantastic boats, but it's hard to say where they fit in the grand scheme of the newer boat landscape... I mean, we all know who the "big three" are. And then there's other brands that have taken various niches (like Centurian going after the surf market). I'm sure they do have a unique identity now-a-days, but it's harder for me to nail it down I guess...

Very cool observations. Thanks for the insight/comments.

[crystal waters]

the Supras of the late 80's early 90's sold for around 20,000 give or take a bit! Today they are running 70's to over 100 g's.
Its going to be a long while until the newer boats depreciate down to the price level many of us can honestly afford.
I believe that is one of the reasons many of us buy the older Supra's ---they fall into our budget! Yes, some need repairs or 2 to 6 g's but much of that can be done over time and again can therefore fall into our budgets! You still get an awesome boat that is stylish and IMHO performs better than many of the new boats.
All that said, there are again many of us who simply love the classic style and performance along with simplicity of operation and repair.
Personally , I get both in low cost and a boat I truly love! Do not want the newer styles even if I could afford same!

[trayson]

the Supras of the late 80's early 90's sold for around 20,000 give or take a bit! Today they are running 70's to over 100 g's.
Its going to be a long while until the newer boats depreciate down to the price level many of us can honestly afford.
I believe that is one of the reasons many of us buy the older Supra's ---they fall into our budget! Yes, some need repairs or 2 to 6 g's but much of that can be done over time and again can therefore fall into our budgets! You still get an awesome boat that is stylish and IMHO performs better than many of the new boats.
All that said, there are again many of us who simply love the classic style and performance along with simplicity of operation and repair.
Personally , I get both in low cost and a boat I truly love! Do not want the newer styles even if I could afford same!

Interesting to factor in inflation. a $20k boat in 1986 is $42.6k in today's dollars. Obviously, they've put a LOT more cost into today's boats, but it's interesting to note that a new direct drive without all the new techy bells and whistles would likely cost about the same...

NADA Guides has the BASE list price of a 2013 Moomba Outback as $40k. So, take a boat like that and ONLY add the options that you might have seen on a 1986 Sunsport (heater, shower, ski pylon, 4 speaker basic stereo, depth gauge) and you're probably coming in at the same $42.6k that is inflation adjusted... (that means you skip the options technology has given us that are becoming more standard in wake boats--like perfect pass, tower, ballast, board racks, etc.)

[The boy]

i will say sat in a Nautique, Mastercraft, and Malibu and my new Supra is the only one that felt right, it is also the only new boat the the comfort of the drivers seat even compared to my 1989 sunsport.

[trayson]

i will say sat in a Nautique, Mastercraft, and Malibu and my new Supra is the only one that felt right, it is also the only new boat the the comfort of the drivers seat even compared to my 1989 sunsport.

I have a feeling that when the day comes that I am able to get into a V-drive and sell my sunsport that it will be bitter-sweet. That's for sure. However, it looks like that day won't come for another 3 to 4 years, and I have a buddy that's actively saving in hopes of being able to purchase my Sunsport when I'm ready to go V-drive.

[92SupraComp]

how do you guys deal with sentimental value? For me this is a big thing. Not so good in some cases... Such as our 1992 Comp. My parents bought it in 95 I believe (not long before I came along) and they enjoyed with their friends and I grew up in it. Many pictures of me standing or sitting in the seat with one hand on the wheel and the other on throttle in gear while it was running... I love that boat, I really don't think I'd be able to get rid of it. Its so fun and has so many memories attached...

The new boats, honestly, dont impress me that much. Yeah they're cool and new but, where is the boating spirit? Loud awful music blaring annoying everyone who lives on the lake, huge waves ruining a great calm day for other water sports, and will any of these young owners go out and tow someone in need? I have offered to tow several people with boat issues to find out I was a second too late, but they greatly appreciated the fact that I offered. And how many of these new boaters know a thing that goes into making the boat run?...

[James]

sentimental value is pretty important. I remember when I sold my first boat, 1988 i/o sunbird corsair. I had to have had hundreds of hours in that thing. I fixed the motor, installed new carpet, rebuilt the seats, stereo, and installed a wakeboard tower, ect on my 16 year old budget. I nearly cried seeing it being towed away out of my driveway. But it paid off in the end and i learned a lot.

Its hard not to want a "newer" boat, but I agree most of our older boats have the same stuff the newer ones have (perfect pass, tower, auto ballast, ect). most of us did these upgrades ourselves because were on a budget (thats the reason were in out boats to begin with). When something messes up on my boat, I usually know how to fix it, and if i don't i will figure it out eventually. Many(not all.... just many) people with newer boats don't know s#!t about how they work, and end up paying tons of money for simple stuff. But if you have the money to afford it, more power to you. However, the knowledge I have accumulated over the last couple years of boat owning is priceless to me.

[The boy]

sentimental is part of the reason i bought a 2013 sunsport and not a launch had 13 great years in that 1989 but after getting towed in on the same lake the same weekend buy the same people two years in a row it was time for a new one changed transmissions and painted it and tower and new trailer on the 1989 sunsport and the new one is just 24 years newer and red

[Kma4444]

We loved our 86 Sunsport, We are INSANELY in love with our 242. Yeah the computer integration of things is worrisome for the future but repairing these kinds of things is only going to get easier and less expensive and more commonplace as time goes on. Nearly every device built anymore has as complicated electronics as our boat. Spend some time learning some code and write an app that lets your phone handle the controller requirements and then it's just a matter of finding simple hardware to handle the power loads of actuating things. It will for sure be different, but I will not have to remove to top deck to replace wood anything.

I think it's right it will be a long time before the affordability factor is the same as the old boats now but that's just how things are.