Toyota Epic X22

[vvfdfirefighter]

Alright So I know this is a Supra forum, being a Supra owner I respect that. However, I love having boats that are different from the rest on the water. Started out as being the only Supra owner on our river and now after 6+ years there are now about 8 on the water other than mine. Everyone owned master crafts before.

Now I'm looking to upgrade my Supra. Love Supra, and I'll probably keep should of mine, but I've ran across a Toyota Epic X22, this boat was the official model boat of the 99-2000 gravity games. Has a Lexus 4.0 ?? Anyone know anything about these boat's?

[Zim]

I know they don't make them anymore... probably for a reason. That motor is a good motor, not sure how it held up in a marine environment though. Overall, Toyota just never broke through the market enough to make it worthwhile. I certainly wouldn't ever sell my supra for one of them, that's for sure.

[villain]

Really,really,really hard to get parts for....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

[vvfdfirefighter]

I know they don't make them anymore... probably for a reason. That motor is a good motor, not sure how it held up in a marine environment though. Overall, Toyota just never broke through the market enough to make it worthwhile. I certainly wouldn't ever sell my supra for one of them, that's for sure.

I definitely wouldn't get rid of my Supra for it That's for sIreland. From what I read they are bullet proof, ceramic stringers ect. Yota only wanted to make something like 1000 a year, to keep them as more quality then quantity. Very good looking boats. Just curious about the wake.

[vvfdfirefighter]

Really,really,really hard to get parts for....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

That's what I'm wanting to know! I know they stopped making them in 02, but said they would provide service for 10 years...but who knows how hard things will get to find for them now that it's year 11

[Zim]

I definitely wouldn't get rid of my Supra for it That's for sIreland. From what I read they are bullet proof, ceramic stringers ect. Yota only wanted to make something like 1000 a year, to keep them as more quality then quantity. Very good looking boats. Just curious about the wake.

Here's some info on them...

http://forums.wakeboarder.com/viewtopic.php?p=567721&sid=9dd0f68dc6261641f7cab802c500b0e9

[cadunkle]

I wouldn't buy a foreign boat. Plenty of good American boats with American power that will perform better. Avoid the foreign junk. Tiny engine, expensive parts, poor availability. Try getting a marine Starter on a weekend for that boat, or any other common failure item. Not gonna happen, and maybe not even by next weekend. Chevy or Ford power and any good marina or even Napa can get you that starter either same day in stock or next day worst case. Been there done that with Volvo engine in a relatives boat.

Bottom line, I buy American whenever possible be it used or new. Only time I buy foreign is with things that there just isn't an American option.

[2500HD]

There is one on ebay. no reserve

[vvfdfirefighter]

There is one on ebay. no reserve

And it's probably in TN? This one is listed online for 13000 I tgink. The availability of dealers, none, would be my concern. Seems like a boat one just wouldn't be able to sale if they had it. With nobody being able to service them. I tell you what, if I bought a 60+ thousand dollar boat in 2002 and found out yota pulled out right after and would only provide VERY LIMITED service for them.
I'd be quite pi$$ed

[92SupraComp]

DOHC V8 definetly goes head to head with old tech ohv V8 that most of our boats run, ex: 240HP 351W, 310 HP GT40P EFI 351W. I bet that motor could give a suped up 351W a run for its money... However, eh, just not my style of boat. But, they did want them to be a quality boat, so... Your call.

[wotan2525]

I always liked these boats. The Toyota engine is supposed to use half the gas of a push-rod V8. I always wondered about the starters, alternators, etc. It's fuel injected and most of the other parts are the same as what they put in the cars. That being said, your failure rate for the starters would probably be very low compared to what we see with these Mexico rebuilt units we all put in our boats.

EpicMarine.com has the owners forum and is pretty active.

[vvfdfirefighter]

I always liked these boats. The Toyota engine is supposed to use half the gas of a push-rod V8. I always wondered about the starters, alternators, etc. It's fuel injected and most of the other parts are the same as what they put in the cars. That being said, your failure rate for the starters would probably be very low compared to what we see with these Mexico rebuilt units we all put in our boats.

EpicMarine.com has the owners forum and is pretty active.

I guess motor/ecu parts would be my main concern in a boat like this. The trans is a hurth and if I recall correct, they are still used today many by mercruiser.

[comp92]

my old boss at Toyota Motors had one. it sat in the shop all the time, thing never ran. too hard to get parts as stated above.
Toyota has always been about quality but not in the boating world. there is a reason you never see them on the water. they are rare or in shop.
stick with what you see. if there are 8+ supras on the lake, there are probably 8 people that will offer you a tow to the dock when the Toyota brakes down!

[ramzak]

I wouldn't buy a foreign boat. Plenty of good American boats with American power that will perform better. Avoid the foreign junk. Tiny engine, expensive parts, poor availability. Try getting a marine Starter on a weekend for that boat, or any other common failure item. Not gonna happen, and maybe not even by next weekend. Chevy or Ford power and any good marina or even Napa can get you that starter either same day in stock or next day worst case. Been there done that with Volvo engine in a relatives boat.

Bottom line, I buy American whenever possible be it used or new. Only time I buy foreign is with things that there just isn't an American option.

Totally disagree. Boats with Marinized car engines are so behind the technology. They use old outdated V-8's that get horrible fuel economy for the performance they give. I just bought an F-150 Eco Boost, V-6 Twin Turbo, more power than any truck I have driven and great fuel economy to boot.

Reliability??? American cars have a history of poor reliability. I was so excited when this boat came out with a Lexus engine, I thought "finally, a reliable boat!"

The parts problem is correct though.... Wish they never stopped making them.

I cant wait for boats to catch up to cars with technology, reliability, fuel economy, etc...

I felt that the Toyota Epic was the first boat to attempt that.

[92SupraComp]

Now, that eco boost of yours. Its only warranted to 60K miles for a good reason. Twin turbos from factory are not reliable! Since when is ford ever know for reliable twin turbo motors? Also, a simple V8 has more displacement and can handle more stress. People who disagree with "no replacement for displacement" are still wrong. A V8 with 350hp vs a V6 with 350 hp for ex. Which is easier to get 350hp out of and which will produce more torque needed for towing?Which can better handle long periods of stress from towing? Theres a good reason why semi's have HUGE diesels that could produce much more power than what they actually produce.

My friend has a relative who does stress testing on american car engines. We are taking the motors that will be released 4 years from now. When the final revision of the ford eco boost came in, when they stress tested it at normal driving, it wasn't very happy after 80k miles. Now towing, he said around 60k mile the motor was spent. Funny, we were just talking about this tuesday...

[cadunkle]

Totally disagree. Boats with Marinized car engines are so behind the technology. They use old outdated V-8's that get horrible fuel economy for the performance they give. I just bought an F-150 Eco Boost, V-6 Twin Turbo, more power than any truck I have driven and great fuel economy to boot.

Reliability??? American cars have a history of poor reliability. I was so excited when this boat came out with a Lexus engine, I thought "finally, a reliable boat!"

The parts problem is correct though.... Wish they never stopped making them.

I cant wait for boats to catch up to cars with technology, reliability, fuel economy, etc...

I felt that the Toyota Epic was the first boat to attempt that.

Nearly all boats have marinized car engines, even that Toyota boat you like. It takes a certain amount of power to move a given hull with a given weight through the water. To greatly simplify, do it with a bigger engine at a lower RPM or do it with a smaller engine at a much greater RPM. Fuel consumption will not be tremendously different at the same MPH. What is unreliable about a small block Ford or even a small block Chevy? These are engines that will go several hundred thousand miles in a car and lest plenty long in a boat. They are both simple and reliable designs that are very similar. BBF and BBC differ greatly, with BBF being superior, but still they're simple and reliable engines.

As for efficiency, your typical boat engine is so de-tuned that it's not going to be tremendously efficient. Up the compression, improve intake and exhaust and swap for a cam best for your usage and you'll see tremendous performance improvements and fuel consumption improvements as well

That eco boost will not go several hundred thousand miles like a 351w or 460 will, especially if you're towing heavy loads frequently. Too much HP per cubic inch and still low on torque compared to a normal sized engine. Look at SBF, 302 blocks split in half around 450 HP and as you approach that power level it's not nice to drive, doesn't idle smoothly and won't last long. If you want that kind of power a 460 is just getting started and will idle low and smoothly, giving potentially hundreds of thousands of miles before needing a major rebuild. 700 HP before a factory crank will fail, blocks can take a lot mroe before they become the weak point.

My point is, for reliability in an application that requires a lot of power and particularly torque, such as trucks and tow boats, you're far better off with a greater displacement engine with stronger components.

[Zim]

If you think boats are behind on technology, you're still running a carbed 351. The new motors are tried and true, but are definitely NOT lacking on technological advances.

[beat taco]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/02/6y5ahu8e.jpg

I didn't see how it could be more efficient. In fact the most efficient GPH boat I owned was my '91 Centurion Falcon. I called it my old tractor due to its reliability, the old 351 just ran and ran, year after year. The new owner has still never rebuilt the carb. It used 10-15 gallons a day, now I use 20-35 gallons a day.
I know it's a weight issue but I'm just saying, that old boat was great and I'm still fond of her. Especially the color :)

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/02/a3esusez.jpg

[dirtydawg]

my carbed 351 is behind on technology, just the way I like it. It's tuned right so its not bad on gas, makes plenty of power and I can tinker with it. Ah but who cares,
of course I would rather have a brand new 450 hp fuel injected boat.

[vvfdfirefighter]

This is one of the funniest things I've ever read on this forum. You knock American cars and their reliability but then talk about owning a Ford V-6 with twin turbos.
Give me a break! I cannot take anything else from this post seriously.

I do give yota a thumbs up for trying a different approach on powerplants. Honestly these engines are quite available and installed in many boats overseas as from what I can read. Sure I tthink we could use an upgrade in our engines. Honestly, I still see many boats running 4Bbl carburetors, in my case a 750 cfm Holley! Yes she sucks the fuel but I've also got a 454 with a 1:1 velvet drive. Marine engines are "behind" their times however I don't exactly have 5G sitting around to but diagnostic equipment.... So maybe is lose lose Ha.

[Jetlink]

Like others have already said, there is something to be said for not running something mechanical like a boat engine at capacity. De-rated motors whether intentionally that way by manufacturer limitation or by operator choices has shown to reflect longer life span on engines and healthier ones at that. Personally, I will gladly take a bigger engine that does not need to run at maximum capacity routinely to accomplish the amount of work I am demanding from it. 6.0 V-8 in my tow rig, I get 12-15 miles per gallon towing my boat but I am never over revving the engine to get the ensemble moving or keep it moving, even going up hill. I can buy a ton of gas for the cost of a drivetrain repair or even worse replacement which was the driving force behind getting a dedicated tow rig to haul our boat around instead of using my wife's daily driver.

[DAFF]

ECO Boost will fit into the 6.0 Power Stroke category of reliability in time. Myself if something is running in the 70-90% capacity of power production something is going to give. The engineers of Ford are building for fuel mileage in mind rather than longevity IMO. I'll have stuck to the older diesels of the 90's for most of my trucks. My Ford L7000 tanker truck which can haul 2400gal averages 15mpg. Its powered by a 5.9L Cummins which is one of the best drive lines ever.

Buy the Toyota, pull the driveline replacing it with a 350EFI from a newer boat. Parts can be hard to find but anything is repairable, you just have to work harder to fix it.

[haugy]

I just like my old 454 because it sounds just rat effing nasty idling there at the dock, and the looks from people is just priceless.

MORE POWER!!! AUGH AUGH AUGH AUGH *tim taylor*

[cadunkle]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/02/6y5ahu8e.jpg

I didn't see how it could be more efficient.

For comparison here's someone with a similar boat nad traditional SBF power, granted newfangled fuel injection but EFI and carb GPH should be nearly identical.


My boat is just slightly out of your date range (1995 Ski), but has the GT-40 engine. I have kept pretty detailed logs on fuel usage since 2010. The boat runs 90% slalom between 32 to 36 mph, 5% barefoot runs, and very infrequently a joyride. Very rarely is the boat just idling for any period of time.

With that in mind, here are my numbers (approx. 50 hours per year). I'd be curious to see what others are getting.
2010: 3.89 gph
2011: 4.37 gph
2012: 5.16 gph (one faulty spark plug most of the year)
2013: 4.47 gph
http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30853&title=fuel-efficiency-question

Going by that chart the CC with SBF power may actually be more fuel efficient since those are his averages predominantly running 32-36 while pulling a skier. Small torqueless engines will burn about the same fuel and perform much worse in a high load application such as a tow boat, especially a wake boat. Running with a light load or nobody riding behind the boat, the smaller engine will typically be more economical. That disappears while under load. I've seen it plenty of times in trucks which while towing can see similar loads as a boat.

My boat, a Saltare with 454, gets about 6-7 GPH depending on usage, people, weight, how many falls, etc. That's strictly riding the only idling is picking up riders. 22 MPH +-2 MPH and 400-800 lbs ballast. I could probably drop a few jet sizes but I haven't found the time to dial in my jetting yet. That would obviously decrease fuel consumption. I'd be amazed if that little toy car engine got any better fuel consumption in my boat for my uses and I guarantee it would be turning a lot more than the 2300 RPM mine turns at riding speed. I know we have a few guys here with 454 Saltares and at least one with a 351w Saltare. I'd be curious to compare fuel consumption under similar conditions. The same with small block and big block SunSports or any other model.

[dirtydawg]

I just like my old 454 because it sounds just rat effing nasty idling there at the dock, and the looks from people is just priceless.

MORE POWER!!! AUGH AUGH AUGH AUGH *tim taylor*

x2 on the looks from people at the dock. Or better yet the fear in the eyes of a first time skier when you start the boat and their connected to it by a rope.

[92SupraComp]

haha. How many of you guys go behind a cigarette with twin 454's? Nothing like it, chest pounding power. Our friends 28ft Scarab has Twin Mercruiser 454's, 4 3.5" stainless exhaust that sits high above the water. love the start up on that thing. Does 75 mph down the lake.

People we just met, have a Scarab with Twin Mercruiser 502's. each equipped with a Whipple Super Charger, 700 hp each! Does 96mph down the lake. Both boats sound amazing... I want ;)

[rdlangston13]

They still make epic boats in Louisiana I believe but they use small and big block v8s now. The president of our wake board club has one

As far as engines, this is the first place I have ever seen anyone talking about how they question the reliability of the ecoboost. Everyone I know that has one loves it and tows many miles with them on a regular basis. They should be fairly reliable motors considering advancements in materials and manufacturing processes. Many old sbf and sbc motors are running cast cranks and rods while the Eco is all forged I think. The engine is built to handle the load and it doesn't turn alot of rpm. The Hemi in my truck turns more rpm towing than an ecoboost.

Also boats are running new technology engine, maybe not the base line engine but the optional engines include corevette LS motors and even the ctsV motor. They are all fuel injected nowadays and run emission control systems.
Sent from my iPhone

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m523/rdlangston13/epic2_zpsfd35dff9.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/rdlangston13/media/epic2_zpsfd35dff9.jpg.html)

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m523/rdlangston13/epic3_zps121eb090.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/rdlangston13/media/epic3_zps121eb090.jpg.html)

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m523/rdlangston13/epic1_zpsc3d740ab.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/rdlangston13/media/epic1_zpsc3d740ab.jpg.html)

[jasun]

I just like my old 454 because it sounds just rat effing nasty idling there at the dock, and the looks from people is just priceless.

I go to a small sand bar (15-30 boats) and they are mainly pontoons. Yesterday when we were leaving i was in the water pulling the auger and my nephew started the boat and I think the 30 people behind the boat all snapped their heads at once. Good Feeling.

[jeff_in_ny]

They still make epic boats in Louisiana I believe but they use small and big block v8s now. The president of our wake board club has one


Today's Epic boats have nothing to do with Toyota's Epic boat of the late 90's, early 2000s. They are not the same company or related in any way. I'd post a few links but the forums don't let me...

I rode behind Darin Shapiro's Epic in 1999 or 2000 during that year's waterski convention (or whatever it was called) in Orlando. The thing I remember is not the engine or interior, but Darin peeing in his shorts on the swim platform, instead of jumping in the water to do it...

[wotan2525]

haha. How many of you guys go behind a cigarette with twin 454's? Nothing like it, chest pounding power. Our friends 28ft Scarab has Twin Mercruiser 454's, 4 3.5" stainless exhaust that sits high above the water. love the start up on that thing. Does 75 mph down the lake.

People we just met, have a Scarab with Twin Mercruiser 502's. each equipped with a Whipple Super Charger, 700 hp each! Does 96mph down the lake. Both boats sound amazing... I want ;)

This thing buzzes us while we surf most nights. 20 year old kid. Twin 1350s. He also owns an X-Star.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEeAmwtziSM

[Toyotafreak]

Gents, old thread...but had to give two cents on my 11 years with a v-drive Toyota Epic. Failures = 0. Actually did have to straighten a manifold that had been banged presumably during install in 2000. Admit it's not got the torque of 5.7s, and tops out at 43. However, I'm a bit overpropped and leavin 700 rpm on the table. Have pulled riders with over 2k lbs of ballast. Normally ride with a 750, sometimes two. Doesn't hold low speeds as well as others. Again, the guys who put on ACMEs say its night and day, but I can live with all that. 4 gph towing, good cruise mpg, so one tank (47g) lasts a long three days. Fit and finish, and the smoothest, quietest engine out there. Sounds like the Lexus it is when you put your foot in it. All aluminum, 8 bolt mains, hemi, 32 valves, VVT, distibutorless, throttle by wire, etc. Manifolds, ECU and display computer are a bit freaky, but aftermarket stuff is available. Biggest concern is what it will take to reupholster down the road without giving up the quality. No bling, but classic. Still love it!

[Tims]

Nearly all boats have marinized car engines, even that Toyota boat you like. It takes a certain amount of power to move a given hull with a given weight through the water. To greatly simplify, do it with a bigger engine at a lower RPM or do it with a smaller engine at a much greater RPM. Fuel consumption will not be tremendously different at the same MPH. What is unreliable about a small block Ford or even a small block Chevy? These are engines that will go several hundred thousand miles in a car and lest plenty long in a boat. They are both simple and reliable designs that are very similar. BBF and BBC differ greatly, with BBF being superior, but still they're simple and reliable engines.

As for efficiency, your typical boat engine is so de-tuned that it's not going to be tremendously efficient. Up the compression, improve intake and exhaust and swap for a cam best for your usage and you'll see tremendous performance improvements and fuel consumption improvements as well

That eco boost will not go several hundred thousand miles like a 351w or 460 will, especially if you're towing heavy loads frequently. Too much HP per cubic inch and still low on torque compared to a normal sized engine. Look at SBF, 302 blocks split in half around 450 HP and as you approach that power level it's not nice to drive, doesn't idle smoothly and won't last long. If you want that kind of power a 460 is just getting started and will idle low and smoothly, giving potentially hundreds of thousands of miles before needing a major rebuild. 700 HP before a factory crank will fail, blocks can take a lot mroe before they become the weak point.

My point is, for reliability in an application that requires a lot of power and particularly torque, such as trucks and tow boats, you're far better off with a greater displacement engine with stronger components.

I am not an ecoboost owner, but have to say that this engine has way better torque curve than any NA V8, and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm.

These engines are built like diesels. Bedplated crank, heavy duty pistons with oil injectors, etc. Turbocharging and direct injection have been in long haul trucking where durability is pretty important. And for the record, there are already plenty of ecoboost engines out there with well over 100K miles and running like new.

I remember when everyone was claiming the end of the world when electronic fuel injection was introduced into boats. Now, every boat has it and the systems are much more maintenance free than a carb.

One thing is constant.......Change.

[Zim]

I am not an ecoboost owner, but have to say that this engine has way better torque curve than any NA V8, and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm.



I love my ecoboost. I can pull out into traffic and not worry about the guy behind me slamming into my boat, because I can out accelerate many of the cars on the road while hauling 2 tons behind me. The torque is incredible on that motor. Not to mention, climbing a hill I'm not downshifting and bouncing off the rev limiter like a small block v8 sometimes will. I sit right at 2200 RPMS or so so with the turbos hissing and climbing the hill no problem because all of my torque is available right there.

[92SupraComp]

I am not an ecoboost owner, but have to say that this engine has way better torque curve than any NA V8, and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm.

These engines are built like diesels. Bedplated crank, heavy duty pistons with oil injectors, etc. Turbocharging and direct injection have been in long haul trucking where durability is pretty important. And for the record, there are already plenty of ecoboost engines out there with well over 100K miles and running like new.

I remember when everyone was claiming the end of the world when electronic fuel injection was introduced into boats. Now, every boat has it and the systems are much more maintenance free than a carb.

One thing is constant.......Change.

1,600+ rpm IS NOT where I want torque to start, how do you get a skier or boarder off the line quick when you don't have power until 1,600 rpm??? Getting out of the hole is where I need power. The 351W provides heaps of torque right off idle. A 351W with performer setup is the most ideal for a boat. Smooth idle and jumps off the line... No waiting on turbos to spool up and eventually fail because the motor is constantly running @ 3,000 rpm vs 1,500 rpm in a vehicle and always under load....

[Zim]

1,600+ rpm IS NOT where I want torque to start, how do you get a skier or boarder off the line quick when you don't have power until 1,600 rpm??? Getting out of the hole is where I need power. The 351W provides heaps of torque right off idle. A 351W with performer setup is the most ideal for a boat. Smooth idle and jumps off the line... No waiting on turbos to spool up and eventually fail because the motor is constantly running @ 3,000 rpm vs 1,500 rpm in a vehicle and always under load....

Uhh... he was talking about tow vehicles, not a boat. But nevertheless, a 351's torque curve still provides less at 1600 rpms than it does at 3000...

[Tims]

1,600+ rpm IS NOT where I want torque to start, how do you get a skier or boarder off the line quick when you don't have power until 1,600 rpm??? Getting out of the hole is where I need power. The 351W provides heaps of torque right off idle. A 351W with performer setup is the most ideal for a boat. Smooth idle and jumps off the line... No waiting on turbos to spool up and eventually fail because the motor is constantly running @ 3,000 rpm vs 1,500 rpm in a vehicle and always under load....


1600 was just a point of reference. The Eco makes more torque from bottom to top over a N/A V8. Hate to break it to you, but that engine straight out performs and will run circles around a 351. With 2 small turbos and high compression provided from the cooling effect of direct injection, there is virtually no turbo lag.

RPM's is not what kills an engine, it's heat. As long as the heat is managed, no problemo.

I understand where you are coming from, I have the 6.2 raptor engine in my F150, but I am telling you, that eco does everything my old fashion V8 does and it actually tows better because of the torque curve. I have driven both.

[Tims]

1,600+ rpm IS NOT where I want torque to start, how do you get a skier or boarder off the line quick when you don't have power until 1,600 rpm??? Getting out of the hole is where I need power. The 351W provides heaps of torque right off idle. A 351W with performer setup is the most ideal for a boat. Smooth idle and jumps off the line... No waiting on turbos to spool up and eventually fail because the motor is constantly running @ 3,000 rpm vs 1,500 rpm in a vehicle and always under load....

1600 was just a point of reference. An ECO will outperform any N/A V8 at almost any point in the curve, especially in a boat. With small turbos and direct injection allowing relatively high compression there is virtually no turbo lag. It would run circles around a 351W. With the torque of the ECO you could probably run a higher pitch prop and even drop your RPM.

RPM and load does not hurt an engine. Heat does, and as long as it is managed, no problemo!

I know where you are coming from, I have a Raptor 6.2 engine in my F150, but after towing and driving both, my engine has nothing over an ECO and actually the towing performance on the ECO is better as the engine does not have to shift and rev as much as my 6.2.

It would make a great performing ski/wake boat engine!! Also looks like we are going to have a supercharged 6.2 in a Supra pretty darn soon.

[92SupraComp]

Uhh... he was talking about tow vehicles, not a boat. But nevertheless, a 351's torque curve still provides less at 1600 rpms than it does at 3000...

And I quote:

"and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm." - Tims

The 351W has 400+ ft lbs off idle! No long slow wait to get to 1,600 rpm... The hardest part of moving a boat is getting up and out of the hole...

[Zim]

And I quote:

"and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm." - Tims

The 351W has 400+ ft lbs off idle! No long slow wait to get to 1,600 rpm... The hardest part of moving a boat is getting up and out of the hole...


Maybe I'm not understanding him right, I thought he meant right where a boat needs it... as in towing a boat. Since the ecoboost doesnt exist in a marine application, I figured that was safe to assume, maybe not? Even still, the PCM 240hp motor doesn't make 400tq. It makes about 350, and it makes that at 2200-3000 RPM, not right off idle. If it was a twin screw blown 351, then sure, but it's not. Not that it matters since we're comparing apples to oranges here, but the ecoboost motor has 90% of its 420lb/ft of tq at 1700 RPMS. That's not exactly "waiting" for it to spool. If it was at 3-4000 RPMs where it saw that number, sure, but the EB motors have a seriously impressive tq curve.

I want a big v8 in my boat too, but don't discredit the EB and where it makes its power. It's not the same thing as a Supra (car) with a huge single turbo on it that takes years to spool. These are small twins that spool very quickly.

[Tims]

And I quote:

"and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm." - Tims

The 351W has 400+ ft lbs off idle! No long slow wait to get to 1,600 rpm... The hardest part of moving a boat is getting up and out of the hole...

1600rpm was just a point of reference. A marine version of the Eco would outperform a 351W at every point in the torque curve. 2 small turbos with high compression due to the cooling effect of direct injection means virtually no turbo lag.

And we should all get ready for boosted engines. Supra will probably have a supercharged 6.2 Ford in around a year.

[cadunkle]

I am not an ecoboost owner, but have to say that this engine has way better torque curve than any NA V8, and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm.

These engines are built like diesels. Bedplated crank, heavy duty pistons with oil injectors, etc. Turbocharging and direct injection have been in long haul trucking where durability is pretty important. And for the record, there are already plenty of ecoboost engines out there with well over 100K miles and running like new.

I remember when everyone was claiming the end of the world when electronic fuel injection was introduced into boats. Now, every boat has it and the systems are much more maintenance free than a carb.

One thing is constant.......Change.

That's a bold statement. The 460 in my truck makes well north of 500 ft/lbs of torque off idle, right where a tow pig and toy hauler needs it. Torque falls before it's wrung out at 5500 RPM, probably around 4000. Used to have a different cam in it that was like an on/off switch at 3000 RPM and pulled hard to around 6500 RPM. Changed the cam because while having very aggressive ramps the duration was more moderate and I expected power to come on earlier and more steadily. Don't get me wrong that cam was fun driving around unloaded and made great power chirping 38" tires on the 2-3 and 3-4 shift, but no good for towing as I'd have to wind it out in granny gear to get rolling and wind out every other gear or RPM would drop below 3000 and it's be a long slow pull up to where the power came on. So it got a significant drop in HP to trade for a tall and flat torque curve.

Maybe the bottom end of that little ecoboost is built tough, maybe not, I don't know the details. Oil jets for the bottom of the pistons is a good sign given it runs a fair amount of boost. I'd be curious what size main and rod journals it has and long term bottom end durability at both stock power levels and at big boy power levels. I got a turbo diesel this past year and am thoroughly unimpressed. The thing is a dog, no torque down low and no power up top. I rarely drive the 460 truck anymore but every time I do, it makes me hate the diesel. It's so darn slow, no torque and you gotta get way into the pump to accelerate as quick as just cracking the throttle on the 460 truck. The 460 truck is turning 35" tires while the diesel is turning stock tires (probably 31" or 32"), so I can only imagine the difference if it was a totally even playing field. I'm sure if I put a larger turbo and more boost to it it would be alright but that requires fabrication work and pulling the engine to install head studs and whatever else goes along with it. Only saving grace of the diesel is it'll burn anything flammable of similar viscosity to diesel (which means free fuel). The 460 needs 91 octane minimum with a less than optimal timing curve and prefers 94 octane. If burning pump fuel the slight increase in MPG of the diesel is negated by the higher price, they cost the same per mile to drive.

EFI? No thanks. I owned a vehicle with EFI once and it was the only vehicle I had to pour gas down the intake when it was below freezing to get it to start. Never again. All my carbed vehicle start just fine regardless of temperature and even the diesel was fine down to negative single digits this winter. I can't be inconvenienced with an engine that is mechanically healthy but won't start and hence won't get me to work because of a sensor or electronics issue. As my time on the water is valuable and I primarily boat on a busy river with lots of big ship traffic I won't take the risk of breaking down for no good reason in the middle of a shipping channel, so no EFI on my boat either. Holleys are simple and reliable, they just plain work and aside from a few a few rare issues of plugged air bleeds from inadequate or failed air filtration (i.e. not a carb problem) I've never had any issues with them. You can keep the change, I'll stick with what works for greater reliability and lower TCO.

[mtndreamer]

I find it hard to believe your 460 will out tow your turbo deisel, I'll never go back to gas in a pickup. I put 40 k on my lly Duramax a year it averages 20.2 - 20.7 between mostly highway and some city, turning 37 " mud tires with a bully dog PMT and a 4" turbo back exhaust. The truck has 300k on it and it runs like the day i got if with 30k. The motor hasn't even been touched . The 460 on 35" tires cant get better than 10mpg. Your diesel must be older, these new trucks make serious power and even more serious torque. Im not sure I understand the EFI comment either, I would much rather have to not monkey around with the carb on super hot days in the summer, or have my boat run differnent in the spring than in the heat of the summer, or monkey around with the closed float design of the marine 4160 carb. my next boat will for sure have efi. Just my opinion

[cadunkle]

I haven't towed with the diesel yet but I'm not expecting hooking 5000 lbs out back to miraculously give in an extra 100 ft/lbs. Maybe this summer I'll do a 0-60 time for each truck towing. Both trucks are '86, the diesel has a banks turbo and they claim something like 260 HP and 500 ft/lbs which is close to what stock powerstrokes made over the years. I haven't driven the 460 truck in a couple months so once again the diesel is feeling alright, not fast, not quick, but alright. Kind of like you get used to the little six banger in a Falcon, doesn't feel fast but after driving it every day long enough it feels normal.

The 460 gets about 10-10.5 MPG towing and 12.5 MPG unloaded. Nothing to write home about but not bad for a 6000 lbs lifted truck. I built the engine for torque and efficiency. It's night and day driving the 460 vs the 6.9. It'll take a good amount of time and money to make this pig perform anywhere near what I'm used to. It is a simple reliable workhorse that's cheap and easy to maintain if you don't mind the lack of power.

Not sure what's wrong with your boat, but I've never had any issues with my vehicles requiring monkeying around or running differently early or late in the season. I don't have issues with closed bowl 4160 carbs because I only run 4150s with externally adjustable floats. The car has a 750 CFM 4150 VS, the truck a 750 CFM 4150 DP, and the boat an 800 CFM 4150 DP. They all just work with no issues. I don't touch EFI, too unreliable and expensive. I need my stuff to just plain work.

If the State didn't back me into a corner I'd be perfectly happy to keep on with my gas truck as I didn't want or need the extra expense and waste of time dealing with another truck that performs nowhere near what I already had and will take a lot to be equivalent.