'86 Ts6m... I started 4 years ago, chickened out, ready to dive back in. Need Advice

[sfields]

I bought my "dream boat" several years ago, a Ts6m like the one I had skiied behind when I was a kid. I immediately had the same heartbreak as many of you when I pulled the floor and found rot and waterlog. I pulled the floor, dug out the foam, spooned out the stringers, and started replacing. I recut the stringers from dry pressure treated 2x material, then took it to a local fiberglass guy who built boats for years at Norris Craft in La Follette, TN. He glassed them in beautifully, and had planned to put a floor in it for me later. A month or so later, he got sick... and never recovered. That was when my boat went on eternal hold. Now I have a garage that is plenty big for me to restart my project. Here are the issues from the past that worry me now:
1. I didn't "shore up" the hull when I pulled and replaced the stringers. I understand that this could have adversely affected the hull shape?
2. I didn't split the upper and lower hull... everything in the bow seemed solid, and I was worried that I couldn't put everything back correctly. The stringers were rotted from the drivers seat back, but I was cutting solid wood in front, so I reattached the new stringers to the new wood up front. Mistake?
3. I have some 1/2" marine plywood that I planned to floor with, and was depending on the "new" foam (that I haven't done yet) underneath to ad rigidity to it... after a couple hours of reading what you guys have shared, I'm not sure I want to foam it. I am now considering 3/4' pressure treated plywood without foam.
4. Since I didn't shore up the hull to replace stringers, and didn't replace the wood in the front of the boat, would foam add back rigidity and safety that I may need?

I hope that this boat will give a piece of my childhood to my two boys... but I don't want them to look back in 30 years at Dad's crazy renovation project that's sitting at the bottom of Norris Lake. If items 1 and 2 have sealed the boat's fate, then I will kill it now before going any further. Please share your opinions.

[wotan2525]

I bought my "dream boat" several years ago, a Ts6m like the one I had skiied behind when I was a kid. I immediately had the same heartbreak as many of you when I pulled the floor and found rot and waterlog. I pulled the floor, dug out the foam, spooned out the stringers, and started replacing. I recut the stringers from dry pressure treated 2x material, then took it to a local fiberglass guy who built boats for years at Norris Craft in La Follette, TN. He glassed them in beautifully, and had planned to put a floor in it for me later. A month or so later, he got sick... and never recovered. That was when my boat went on eternal hold. Now I have a garage that is plenty big for me to restart my project. Here are the issues from the past that worry me now:
1. I didn't "shore up" the hull when I pulled and replaced the stringers. I understand that this could have adversely affected the hull shape?
2. I didn't split the upper and lower hull... everything in the bow seemed solid, and I was worried that I couldn't put everything back correctly. The stringers were rotted from the drivers seat back, but I was cutting solid wood in front, so I reattached the new stringers to the new wood up front. Mistake?
3. I have some 1/2" marine plywood that I planned to floor with, and was depending on the "new" foam (that I haven't done yet) underneath to ad rigidity to it... after a couple hours of reading what you guys have shared, I'm not sure I want to foam it. I am now considering 3/4' pressure treated plywood without foam.
4. Since I didn't shore up the hull to replace stringers, and didn't replace the wood in the front of the boat, would foam add back rigidity and safety that I may need?

I hope that this boat will give a piece of my childhood to my two boys... but I don't want them to look back in 30 years at Dad's crazy renovation project that's sitting at the bottom of Norris Lake. If items 1 and 2 have sealed the boat's fate, then I will kill it now before going any further. Please share your opinions.

1) If you didn't pull the top cap, I suspect that the top cap kept everything together. The sides will separate from each other if not strapped or otherwise stabilized prior to cutting out the stringers, but with the top cap still on -- I believe that you're fine.

2) When I did my stringers, I did the same thing. I had good wood in the front of the boat and the stringers were solid. It was before I had found this board and before I had any sort of resource on how I should have tackled this. Everything in mine is solid and has been for years. If I had it to do over, I would replace all of the stringers but (oh dear god) I hope I never have that opportunity.

3) I used 3/4" marine plywood with the top and bottom both coated in fiberglass and CPES. I also added the foam (even though I originally planned to leave it out) because it did add significant support for the floor and quite a bit of sound deadening. My boat felt "live" before I added the foam back to it.

4) The only "safety" aspect of the foam is to meet coast guard standards that the boat must be able to float with a serious hull breach or while capsized. It's completely up to you but I couldn't imagine a scenario where the boat would be in half or upside down and I would be concerned with making sure it didn't sink. That's just me, though.

[sfields]

Whew... that sure makes me feel better. Thank you for your reply. You stated that you used "marine plywood with the top and bottom both coated in fiberglass and CPES"... let me show my ignorance by asking, did you simply dip fiberglass mesh in resin, then apply one coat over the plywood? layers? and what is "CPES"? This step is the one that put my brakes on... to the extent that I considered splurging for the Coosa Bluewater fiberglass/composit material (runs about $326 per 4x8 board).

[wotan2525]

CPES is basically just thinned out epoxy that will soak into the wood. It penetrates and makes it waterproof. Brush on, let soak in, then repeat. Then I brushed on a thicker layer of epoxy on the bottom, waited for it to dry and then installed it. I brushed on a final layer of epoxy on the top, then laid down wetted fiberglass matte and brushed epoxy over the top of it. I only used a single layer of the matte for the floor.

http://www.star-distributing.com/smith/cpeswhy.html

[sybrmike]

Welcome back of sorts. I second Wotan's comments:
1. The top cap should have kept the hull from flexing while replacing the stringers
2. I did split the cap and replaced everything underneath, but the old stringers were much better up front. The keel in the front helps the structure in shape, so if your wood was solid up front you should be good
3. I used 3/4" exterior grade plywood, coated with CPES, with a layer of glass top and bottom before joining to the stringers. No foam for me, but seems plenty rigid (I've loaded over 2000# of ballast & never worried). At rest I can hear the waves lapping the hull more than before, but can't hear anything over the 454 when running.
4. The foam does add strength (my stringers were so rotten, I think foam was the only thing holding it together), but I calculated the buoyancy of the factory foam & at best it would slow the rate at which she settled on the bottom. If she ever gets that wet, don't know if I want her back anyway.
Good luck!

[sfields]

Thanks so much... Great info. Think I'll order the 2 gallon kit of CPES (seem like too much?) , and I will be back on track to boat in the spring. Last thing, where is the most economical place for fiberglass and resin (& particular type?) And will the CPES be sufficient on the underside of the plywood?

[wotan2525]

Here's some reading info on thinning out some epoxy to use as CPES. WEST doesn't say it adds any additional water-proofing and the only reason I used it is that I had already purchased 2 gallons of rot-doctor to use to try and repair my stringers. I figured since I spent the money on it that I would use it, but it looks like regular epoxy used correctly is just as effective.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?68861-Making-my-own-CPES&p=1638249#post1638249

[jasun]

The foam question also has to do with what USCG requirements are... From my understanding, us Salt guys dont need to add back foam as there is not foam requirements for boats over 20'
Not sure what the Comp measures, or if it is >20' or >=20'

[sybrmike]

Thanks so much... Great info. Think I'll order the 2 gallon kit of CPES (seem like too much?) , and I will be back on track to boat in the spring. Last thing, where is the most economical place for fiberglass and resin (& particular type?) And will the CPES be sufficient on the underside of the plywood?

US Composites is a reliable source and price competitive. Of course, now you get into the whole epoxy vs polyester, matt vs cloth debates. Consensus is that epoxy will stick to epoxy and poly, but poly will only bond well with poly. Epoxy is stronger but more expensive. I used mainly poly & cloth - roven woven and cloth stringer to hull, matt top and bottom of floor and between floor and stringers, cloth floor to hull. I used epoxy & cloth for high stress areas like tower backer plates, new battery divider wall, and new playpen support structure. I'd glass both sides of the floor both for strength and waterproofing. If you don't go back with foam, be sure to add some limber holes where the stringers meet the hull and between x-braces so that the subfloor can breath and dry out.

[sfields]

US Composites is a reliable source and price competitive. Of course, now you get into the whole epoxy vs polyester, matt vs cloth debates. Consensus is that epoxy will stick to epoxy and poly, but poly will only bond well with poly. Epoxy is stronger but more expensive. I used mainly poly & cloth - roven woven and cloth stringer to hull, matt top and bottom of floor and between floor and stringers, cloth floor to hull. I used epoxy & cloth for high stress areas like tower backer plates, new battery divider wall, and new playpen support structure. I'd glass both sides of the floor both for strength and waterproofing. If you don't go back with foam, be sure to add some limber holes where the stringers meet the hull and between x-braces so that the subfloor can breath and dry out.

So if I'm reading you correctly, I would move over to the 635 Thin Epoxy Resin system at US Composits which would be used not only to penetrate the wood and lengthen its life expectancy, but also would be used as the resin to bond the fiberglass matt to the plywood? I wouldn't have thought that it wasn't "thick" enough? or would I purchase a thicker epoxy resin to bond the matt to the plywood after using something like the 635?

[Okie Boarder]

I did no foam on my Sunsport and it has worked well. I used all 2x material for stringers and cross braces attached to each other and the hull. I went with epoxy resin from US Composites and also used CPES on all my wood. I agree on the limber holes...put four in my main stringers and every cross brace had the corner cut out. For the structural work I used the DBM 1708 biaxial fabric...for the deck and other areas not needing as much strength it was mat and cloth.

[sfields]

All of you and your responses rock... I know that It has all been asked before, but I fear that mine may somehow be different. My love affair with this boat goes back almost 30 years, and I want it to go on another 30. My wife always thinks that the boat is too small, too low to the water, too old, and every other excuse to push me toward a boat that wasn't designed for skiing... This is the boat of my passion and I can't wait to roll up my sleves and finally finish it. The whole industry is coming back around to this hull design, because it just works. And this one will be mine. If any of you are around Norris Lake in Tennessee, send me a PM and drop by. I'm in Deerfield Resort which is closest to La Follette.

[jeff_in_ny]

It may be too late, but a word of caution about using pressure treated wood: there is a consensus on some of the other forums that pressure treated wood is inadequate as stringers. Number one is that there isn't sufficient evidence that the epoxy and glass adheres well to the pressure treated wood. Also, you may have read that clear Douglas Fir was (and still is) the wood of choice for stringers. 2x pine will certainly not give you the strength that Doug Fir will.

With that said, others make stringers out of foam and wrap them in fiberglass. You've got to assume that wood wrapped in fiberglass is stronger than that...

My suggestion is that you take a look at the other stringer threads here and on the other boat forums as well. Read the threads, look at pics, and post your own pics here.

It is a time consuming, frustrating, but very rewarding process.

[wotan2525]

It may be too late, but a word of caution about using pressure treated wood: there is a consensus on some of the other forums that pressure treated wood is inadequate as stringers. Number one is that there isn't sufficient evidence that the epoxy and glass adheres well to the pressure treated wood. Also, you may have read that clear Douglas Fir was (and still is) the wood of choice for stringers. 2x pine will certainly not give you the strength that Doug Fir will.

With that said, others make stringers out of foam and wrap them in fiberglass. You've got to assume that wood wrapped in fiberglass is stronger than that...

My suggestion is that you take a look at the other stringer threads here and on the other boat forums as well. Read the threads, look at pics, and post your own pics here.

It is a time consuming, frustrating, but very rewarding process.

AFAIK, the treated lumber is a worry if it's wet/fresh. It sounds like OP has probably dried his out enough to not need to worry about it.

I used laminated marine plywood for my stringers but that was just dumb luck instead of some kind of divine plan.

[Okie Boarder]

For the record, I used all doug fir in my rebuild.

[sfields]

I bummed my pressure treated from my Brother In Law's lumber shed for my stringers, so it was not only dry, it was likely the "old way" of pressure treating lumber (better). I fiberglassed them in 2009, and the boat has been stored since. I feel that if I can hit everything again with CPES, I've definitely got a dry point to pick back up on. Now if I can only find all of the parts!

[Salty87]

you can thin poly resin with acetone to achieve similar results as CPES. i don't know about epoxy. epoxy is great but your hull is made of poly and the stringers have already been attached. imo, epoxy for just the floor is probably overkill but you're not talking about very many gallons at this point.

i also used US Composite and if memory serves it was the 635. you'll mix resin and hardener when fiberglassing. if you haven't messed with it before you should practice on a scrap piece of wood first. it's not terribly difficult but there's a learning curve.

[sfields]

Took the heads off of my 351 yesterday to make sure it had held up well since 2007. Looks perfect. Pulled 6 years of parts and a moves worth of miscellaneous "stuff" out to uncover the skeleton of what I hope will be my running Ts6m Comp by spring. Thinking seriously about using Coosa Bluewater 20 3/4" board instead of wood for my floor. Think I could pull it off with 2 4x8 sheets (pricy at $300 a sheet, but "do it once and do it right"?). Here it is with the stringers glassed in. 12951