Pirata V drive conversion, attempt #2

[5akman]

I posted last fall about converting my 89 Pirata to a v drive. I got screwed by a guy on ebay selling a BW 72C with v drive (ebay did refund my 1200.00) and lost interest in the project. Now I'm back to it!

The plan is to convert to both a vdrive and open bow. I've had a few open bows before and have never liked the walk through option. I converted a mid 70's Tahiti jet into a step over open bow and loved the front "bench" seat that that offered. I'm doing the same on this hull, a step through the windshield, over the bulkhead format. I'm mounting a curved open bow windshield in place of the flat plate original and wow, it brings the look of this hull into the 21st century!

For the v drive, I purchased a Crusader unit for cheap. Its a 12* box with 15% gears, water cooled. I've pulled the engine/tranny, fuel tanks, interior, prop, prop shaft and strut. I'm now working on shimming the strut to give me the 12* angle instead of the 15* stock set up. It looks like the v drive box will be about 18" forward of the prior location where prop flange/BW mated up. With any luck, the v drive will fit completely under the floor. If not, I either fab a funky raised cover for it or build the entire floor up a bit to cover the v drive. I plan on using the original fuel tank as the rear seat base. I've purchased some Bennett trim tabs so plan on some type of trim-able wake/cavitation plate.

The hull has bottom paint on it which will be a PAIN to remove. I've read where Soy Strip works well but have yet to try it. I'm also hoping to completely re gel coat the entire hull to some custom design.

Progress will be slow as I have a full time job as a high school counselor (former wood/drafting teacher) and sell salmon at the local Saturday farmers market. I commercial fish in AK each summer and this year had a National Geographic camera crew on board and will be one of four boats featured in a 6 episode series called Alaska Fish Wars being shown on NatGeoWild in February! Didn't make a dime off of it but it was fun to be part of the program.

Question: With the 15% gear box I can go either over driven or under driven. All of the current wakeboard boats are under driven by around 25-50% (1.25 or 15.:1). I wonder with the flatter shaft angle if I can run 15% over? Any thoughts?

Lance

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[Sdc77]

Very VERY interresting project ! Will follow it carefuly.
What is the curved windshield from ?
Sorry I can't answer your % question anyway

[villain]

Extremely Interested. I actually have a call In to a tranny shop in Florida who is putting together a complete parts list to put a Walter on the back of my velvet drive that is in my Sunsport. As soon as I have a complete parts list I will share it as if i have to put new stringers in my boat soon I should just vdrive it. Time will tell!

[mabbore]

you sir, are a bold man! Im looking forward to following this.

[wotan2525]

That windshield looks awesome and doesn't even look like it's going to be too hard to finish. Glass is going to be tricky. Good luck and keep us updated!!

[5akman]

I bought the windshield off of ebay about 20 yrs ago and its just been sitting in storage. It's off a Stratos fish/ski outboard hull. The Pirata hull is wider so I'll have to get some new alum extrusion and make the center panel of the windshield about 6" wider. It will need some foam/glass work where the windshield mounts to the deck as the new unit does not make contact along the entire length of the mounting surface. I did the same thing to a Malibu Sunsetter a few years ago when I changed the flat panel to a curved unit.

villain: you might check ebay for a complete unit also. What I had originally purchased was a Velvet drive with attached v drive unit and I believe it would have mounted up fairly easily. Things to watch for/consider: you'll need a v drive oil pan since the engine is now turned around, interference between pan and rudder assembly/strut mounting bolts, leaving access room to front of engine to get to water pump etc. Most of the true, old school flat bottom type v drives had the engine mounted about 36" from the transom allowing easy access to the front of the engine. Referencing from the current shaft log position, your engine is going to be fairly tight up against the transom. I'm looking at being about 12" forward of the transom on my install with a new shaft log location and v drive box being around 7-8' forward of the transom using a drive shaft around 24" long. I'll have to fit the various items as I bolt each piece in place starting with using the existing strut in the existing location but shimmed to give 12*.

[haugy]

Contact the people at B&W, they can help you with your power setup (just don't tell them you have a crusader). With your engine you want to over drive it. If you are using an older engine, you will already have some power loss, and the newer engines hold that power rating better.

As for your drive, once you measure it out, engine, tranny and v-drive then take a look at your setup. Your engine will obviously be open space. But then the backrest to the rear seat and rear divider wall will help cover the tranny. You want access to the v-drive so build your rear bench over it. That way you can lift the middle seat and voila, V-drive. If you can make the lower base removable for service access you will be glad you did. I would recommend hidden latches on the back that pull the seat against supports at the front. Seal the edges of the sides of the bench with color matched rubber trim. You will never notice a gap, it will look clean, and it can come out in 5 minutes. Great for tranny and v-drive service.

That's the other thing you have to think about, servicing the engine. You have to have it forward enough to access the belts, but far enough back to not lose space. Wheeee. Your boat is perfect for a v-drive conversion. Being a pirata you can relocate your fuel tank to the bow to offset the 700lbs that you just moved to the stern. You will want that balance. Also consider a hydraulic wakeplate, that way you can quickly and easily adjust your trim for varying conditions and weights in the boat.

Make sure you go through that v-drive with a fine tooth comb. Those crusaders did have their issues.

[5akman]

What specifically do I need to look for in the Crusader gear box in terms of issues? Any pics of what you're talking about in terms of edges with rubber trim? I've got some Bennett trim tabs ready to go!

[haugy]

Honestly I can't remember, I know that sounds real helpful, but I remember reading a bunch when I planned mine. Nothing catastrophic, but if you have it apart there were a few components that you could upgrade.

I'll try and find a picture of the trim I'm talking about. It's small and looks like the border you would find around a cheap poster frame. U-shaped so that it slides over the edge you are trying to clean up. But it's thick enough that it basically provides a clean shim so your paneling isn't so tight you can't get it out, but closes up any gaps.

[villain]

Just pulled a hurth tranny out of a MasterCraft that I'm thinking of having rebuilt to use. If you have never Sean one they are extremely short but tall. Whe. I get to work tomorrow I will put up some pics.

[villain]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/05/je6aju7e.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/05/egu7yjyr.jpg

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http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/05/uje4avug.jpg

The prop shaft actually goes through the tranny and bolts on to the front side. One benefit is its a 1.52:1 ratio.

[villain]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/05/y5yza5uq.jpg


Here is a quick sketch of the zf hurth vdrive tranny I did. Measurements are not exact but are within an inch.

[haugy]

Wait, is the black thing the MC tranny or the ZF vdrive? It looks like a tranny/v-drive combo????? So the shaft would come in on the same side as the input shaft for the engine? Is it supposed to do that? Would it go forward when forward gear is selected or is it reverse?

Honestly, I'm not sure what the heck I'm looking at here, but this could be genius.

[villain]

It is a zf hurth zf 63 IV. It is a combo tranny and vdrive. It did come out of a MasterCraft. It is a left hand prop rotation( standard). I'm thinking of rebuilding it if I decide to go vdrive.

[5akman]

So the ZF bolts to the bell housing where the Velvet drive would normally go? Interesting.....

I was headed that way with the short coupled Borg warner set up but have now opted for the remote vdrive unit. Should increase the top end speed with the flatter shaft angle. Keep us posted on your conversion attemps!

[DAFF]

With all the complete rebuilds on the site it is about time a conversion has been attempted. Only thing missing to me is the Cummins powerplant

[5akman]

Sorry, I'm a Duramax driver!

[haugy]

Minor Hijack, sorry 5akman.


With all the complete rebuilds on the site it is about time a conversion has been attempted. Only thing missing to me is the Cummins powerplant

Cool, but if I go with a new powerplant, it's going to be this.

454 LSX - 620HP and 590 ft/lbs of torque. HELL YES.

http://cdn.speednik.com/files/2011/04/LSX-454-Crate-Engine.jpg

[Sdc77]

Any news of this project ?

[5akman]

I didn't mention before but my wife has breast cancer. She just had a double mastectomy 3 weeks ago at UCSF medical center and we start chemo treatments next week. So, I've been a bit busy lately with family life. I have elongated the prop shaft hole in the bottom of the boat and shimmed the strut to get me to 12*. Other than that, the progress has been real slow......

[haugy]

Man, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope she kicks it's ass! Tell her some of your random internet friends are rooting for her.

[5akman]

It's hit her hard. She has an 86 yr old mom and 3 older sisters who have never had an issue. She is (was) the healthest of them all in terms of diet and fitness, makes no sense....... She's scared of chemo but her cancer is grade 3 which is the fastest, most aggressive type of cancer so chemo is the next step. Thanks for your thoughts/prayers on this!

[Sdc77]

Sorry to read that too. You have my words and faith from the other side of the ocean. Health is the priority
Regards

[5akman]

Sorry to read that too. You have my words and faith from the other side of the ocean. Health is the priority
Regards

Thank you.

[villain]

Sorry to hear that. Your family is in our thoughts and prayers. She will kick its ass!

[trayson]

Both my mom and sister had stage 3 with Chemo, radiation and the full deal. They're both happy and healthy and that is a phase of their life that's now well in their rearview mirror. It was hard, no getting around that, but they pulled through. Yours will too.

[5akman]

Both my mom and sister had stage 3 with Chemo, radiation and the full deal. They're both happy and healthy and that is a phase of their life that's now well in their rearview mirror. It was hard, no getting around that, but they pulled through. Yours will too.

Thats encouraging news, thanks for passing it along!

Lance

[Ptownkid]

All the best to you and yours Lance, we're all thinking of her.

[5akman]

Who'd a thought a bunch of strangers would actually care/comment without even knowing the person. A heartfelt thank you to everyone in the Supra extended family!

[Jetlink]

Who'd a thought a bunch of strangers would actually care/comment without even knowing the person. A heartfelt thank you to everyone in the Supra extended family!

My apologies for being late to this thread. Tell your wife to go kick ass and take names!

[5akman]

Very old thread started by myself a few years ago. Wife is in remission, kids moved of to college, project is up for sale. I'll post details in the for sale section

[Safety Bob]

Hello Lance, How is your wife doing? God Bless you and your family for the courage that you have! Did you end up selling the Pirata? I am looking at converting my 1988 Saltare to a V Drive as well. I have a 496 BBC that I am using for the power plant and I was wondering how you determine what kind of a V Drive unit to go with. My local Supra dealer in Crystal Lake, IL just provided me with an email address to Skier's Choice to see if they can help. I understand that I am going to have to beef up the stringers to hold this beast in place and add some bushings to help keep her from vibrating the motor mounts out of the wood. My Saltare only has 310 hours on her so she should look real nice when I am finished. Who did you see for design experience? I just looked at the SE450 at the boat show and I took a ton of pictures. I am going to design a playpen and surround seating similar to these new boats, but I am going to make sure that I have easy access to the motor and the v drive unit for maintenance purposes. Any help would be appreciated! Thank you, -Bob

[5akman]

Hello Lance, How is your wife doing? God Bless you and your family for the courage that you have! Did you end up selling the Pirata? I am looking at converting my 1988 Saltare to a V Drive as well. I have a 496 BBC that I am using for the power plant and I was wondering how you determine what kind of a V Drive unit to go with. My local Supra dealer in Crystal Lake, IL just provided me with an email address to Skier's Choice to see if they can help. I understand that I am going to have to beef up the stringers to hold this beast in place and add some bushings to help keep her from vibrating the motor mounts out of the wood. My Saltare only has 310 hours on her so she should look real nice when I am finished. Who did you see for design experience? I just looked at the SE450 at the boat show and I took a ton of pictures. I am going to design a playpen and surround seating similar to these new boats, but I am going to make sure that I have easy access to the motor and the v drive unit for maintenance purposes. Any help would be appreciated! Thank you, -Bob

My wife is great, one more year until the "all clear 5 yr" status on her cancer so we're hopeful all continues as planned.
The Pirarta project stills sits in the back yard needing a new home......

You have two options on the V drive unit. Either option will require you (most likely) to move the shaft log forward a bit to get the position of the engine correct. You can use the direct mount V drive/Borg Warner type unit like all current wakeboard boats have or go with the "remote" v drive like an old school flat bottom. I had opted for the old school build and was going to use a big block mounted to a BW 72 velvet drive, then a drive shaft to a Champion V drive mounted forward under the floor. With this method you get a flatter shaft angle hence a higher top speed. I believe the angle on this was around 11 or 12 degrees vs 14 or 16 on the direct mounted unit.

I'd check ebay for either types of v drive unit (remote mount preference would be a Casale/Champion) and BW transmission.

Get some pics posted of your project!

[SUPRA_ALLEGRO_LANE]

Is this boat in California? There is a one for sale that was a V Drive conversion attempt.

[5akman]

Yep, Chico

[SUPRA_ALLEGRO_LANE]

This it?

https://chico.craigslist.org/boa/d/price-drop-supra-pirata/6438484612.html

[5akman]

Yep, make you a killer deal on it!

[Cooose]

you could stand to make a few hundred bucks off the curved windshield alone.

i was always pulling for the unicorn of an older supra v-drive....just like I'd love to do a rear wheel drive conversion on an Acura Legend. An LS motor in that body (assuming the frame was strengthened accordingly) would be epic. I've settled (for the moment) for an 88 Saltare (non-v-drive) and 00 740i

[Cooose]

Hello Lance, How is your wife doing? God Bless you and your family for the courage that you have! Did you end up selling the Pirata? I am looking at converting my 1988 Saltare to a V Drive as well. I have a 496 BBC that I am using for the power plant and I was wondering how you determine what kind of a V Drive unit to go with. My local Supra dealer in Crystal Lake, IL just provided me with an email address to Skier's Choice to see if they can help. I understand that I am going to have to beef up the stringers to hold this beast in place and add some bushings to help keep her from vibrating the motor mounts out of the wood. My Saltare only has 310 hours on her so she should look real nice when I am finished. Who did you see for design experience? I just looked at the SE450 at the boat show and I took a ton of pictures. I am going to design a playpen and surround seating similar to these new boats, but I am going to make sure that I have easy access to the motor and the v drive unit for maintenance purposes. Any help would be appreciated! Thank you, -Bob



Hey Bob - the stringers aren't a crazy big deal. The mount isn't rocket science in its current location and won't necessarily be if you move it around. For me I would always struggle to conceptualize the angles to the v-drive and whether the thru hull shaft log would have to be changed or not. Assuming you have the budget to tackle this and re-working the other systems that will be competing for space with your ending aft, you should be good to go.

All that said, if you want to have fun on the lake..keep your current working setup and then buy a "project" and get busy on the weekends dialing it in. If your "project" is also you summer fun toy its a drag if it's not ready when you are.

[5akman]

you could stand to make a few hundred bucks off the curved windshield alone.

i was always pulling for the unicorn of an older supra v-drive....just like I'd love to do a rear wheel drive conversion on an Acura Legend. An LS motor in that body (assuming the frame was strengthened accordingly) would be epic. I've settled (for the moment) for an 88 Saltare (non-v-drive) and 00 740i

I have two of those curved, walk thru wind shields. I'll probably just part it out and move on!

[SUPRA_ALLEGRO_LANE]

How good of a deal 5akman?

[5akman]

How good of a deal 5akman?

$1200.00

1988 Supra Pirata tournament style ski boat project. I bought this as a rebuilder and planned on converting it to a rear engine V drive wakeboard style boat. Life came along, wife got cancer, the boys grew up and my interest in the project has waned. I have a non OEM 460 ford engine that needs an overhaul, Borg warner velvet drive 72C trans The bow has been cut out to make it a walk through open bow. I have two windshields for it, the original flat panel unit and a curved walk through wind shield. Trailer has lots of rust damage and one wheel bearing needs replaced. I have the pink on the boat but nothing on the trailer other than a bill of sale. Did I mention that this is a project? :)
Looking for a Jeep CJ project, 4x4 quad, 4wd burb/Tahoe/Etc with 3rd row seat, fishing type jet boat. I don't want to put any money into this transaction, just a straight across trade or sell outright for 1500.00, email or phone/text 530 - 8 six 4 - 4846

[Safety Bob]

Well, I have a 496 build in my garage right now, but my neighbor just found a killer deal on a 2006 LQ9 which is an iron block LS2 motor with aluminum heads out of a wrecked escalade. The truck only had 50,000 miles. The motor is complete top to bottom. I think that I am going to go through this, put a marine cam and oil pan in it and mate it to a v drive. What kind of a v drive transmission do I need to find? Obviously one that will handle 500 hp and 500 ft./lbs. of torque. Any ideas would help! Thank you! -Bob

[5akman]

Well, I have a 496 build in my garage right now, but my neighbor just found a killer deal on a 2006 LQ9 which is an iron block LS2 motor with aluminum heads out of a wrecked escalade. The truck only had 50,000 miles. The motor is complete top to bottom. I think that I am going to go through this, put a marine cam and oil pan in it and mate it to a v drive. What kind of a v drive transmission do I need to find? Obviously one that will handle 500 hp and 500 ft./lbs. of torque. Any ideas would help! Thank you! -Bob

A borg warner 72C series velvet drive is what you need. It can be a a unit that bolts to the engine then has a drive shaft going to the remove V drive or, it can be the direct mount unit like those in today's wakeboard boats that are an all in one unit.

[scottschmitt]

Also, good idea to switch out the starter for a marine starter.