Ford, Indmar, and Supra [Archive]

michael hunter

11-07-2013, 05:55 PM

Unless the Ford engine is far and above superior to the GM I see it as a lose lose for everybody except maybe Ford. The dealer will have to double up on parts inventory or wait for special orders to arrive. The mechanics will have to learn a totally new system with all its problems to discover. The buyer will have to put up with everything associated with being new and different and most likely pay more for it because of lower volume being produced. In 89 when I bought my Supra the GM 350 was an option even though I would rather push a Chevy than drive a ford I went with the Ford 351 . The main reason was {There is safety in numbers} better to have a common engine with expertise and parts available than to take a chance on the low production combo that most shops will only see once in a blue moon. I don't see problems with the GM engines the problems they do have are problems caused by Indmar Cats and fuel pump to name a couple.

92SupraComp

11-12-2013, 09:41 PM

michael hunter

11-13-2013, 08:23 AM

I would say a clean diesel like in German cars would be a good set up. I also think the cost would be prohibitive.

DAFF

11-13-2013, 10:13 AM

Sorry I was late getting home from the lake.... The engine started its regen cycle just as I hit the dock. ;)

haugy

11-13-2013, 11:17 AM

I would say a clean diesel like in German cars would be a good set up. I also think the cost would be prohibitive.

Been wanting something like this for years.

chrisk

11-13-2013, 03:52 PM

why, why??? Already went though this on CCfan haha. GM LS motors are unbelievably common. Cheap, many aftermarket parts. Much more proven than any of fords late motors. The Modular motors have so many problems... Their new motors have a lot to make up for, and no one has seen what problems they have yet. Someone on CCFan suggested using the eco boos motor. NO!!! The eco boost motor, on a stress test for normal towing conditions, is worn out at 80K miles!!! NOT COOL! Also, the 5L cyote motor. haha, doesn't make that 420hp up until 7,000 RPM!! The Chevy 480HP LS3 makes its HP at 5,500 RPM! Great for a boat! What Indmar, PCM and all of them SHOULD have done is, get the new 6.4L Dodge Hemi which makes a whopping 525HP, I bet you could easily get more with no emissions :D ;)

While I don't disagree with anything you said… you never mentioned the actual Ford motor they WILL be using - the 6.2L block from the Raptor. As far as aftermarket performance parts, not too many people go full tuner on their tow boat motors. Aftermarket replacement parts… it's a Ford, the parts will be there.

Yes, the newish Ford motor isn't as established as the GM motor… but the GM motor had to start somewhere also.

My final point, anyone who has the coin to buy a brand new tow boat these days, also has the coin to pay to HAVE them repaired, or at least they should. By the time they're 15-20 years old and on the verge of becoming classics… I'm sure the boat mechanic parts-shelf will be full of goodies for them.

michael hunter

11-13-2013, 05:47 PM

While I don't disagree with anything you said… you never mentioned the actual Ford motor they WILL be using - the 6.2L block from the Raptor. As far as aftermarket performance parts, not too many people go full tuner on their tow boat motors. Aftermarket replacement parts… it's a Ford, the parts will be there.

Yes, the newish Ford motor isn't as established as the GM motor… but the GM motor had to start somewhere also.

My final point, anyone who has the coin to buy a brand new tow boat these days, also has the coin to pay to HAVE them repaired, or at least they should. By the time they're 15-20 years old and on the verge of becoming classics… I'm sure the boat mechanic parts-shelf will be full of goodies for them.

All true unless they discontinue the new motor in 1-2 years making parts as rare as moon rocks. There have been a lot of experiments gone bad its always better to stay with the tried and true products and let somebody else be the guinea pig. Especially since the GM 6.2 has a proven track record.

Cliff

11-13-2013, 07:33 PM

All true unless they discontinue the new motor in 1-2 years making parts as rare as moon rocks. There have been a lot of experiments gone bad its always better to stay with the tried and true products and let somebody else be the guinea pig. Especially since the GM 6.2 has a proven track record.

This is true. And I don't mean to be offensive. But. If everyone thought like this we would never advance in technology.
Competition drives these company's to spend resources on r&d. This r&d is what gave us things life fuel injection. Imagine driving carb cars. I have a couple mustangs and although I don't mind carbs I would not want it in my everyday driver. I think the 6.2 is here to stay. And maybe not... But are we content to stick with the "old reliable" forever and never advance?

DAFF

11-13-2013, 07:40 PM

R & D is a step in the right direction. Loosing a raw water pump on a all aluminum block is another >>>>> Instant $5000.00 repair.

michael hunter

11-13-2013, 10:27 PM

My biggest problem is the lack of R&D they are replacing a 6.2L with a 6.2 built by someone else. There is no big increases in toque or HP.
I suspect the main reason for the switch is better price structure for Indmar . I doubt that will be passed on the the consumer in fact I would be surprised if it dosnt cost more. I just don't see any game changing advancements here.

dschnei6

11-14-2013, 02:34 PM

Anyone know when I can order a new SC with a Ford 6.2L engine? I've been waiting for Ford to get back in the marine business since I sold my 2000 Air Nautique with a GT40. Thanks.

eyespyautomotive

11-21-2013, 07:00 PM

This is true. And I don't mean to be offensive. But. If everyone thought like this we would never advance in technology.
Competition drives these company's to spend resources on r&d. This r&d is what gave us things life fuel injection. Imagine driving carb cars. I have a couple mustangs and although I don't mind carbs I would not want it in my everyday driver. I think the 6.2 is here to stay. And maybe not... But are we content to stick with the "old reliable" forever and never advance?

Exactly my thought, how long will everyone want that ol chevy (whos architecture was designed in the 50's) when much better powertrains are available? despite what some people think, the ford modular is an excellent motor with excellent reliability. It has a superior torque curve and there are alot of aftermarket performance accessories. Look at the mustang performance market.. And as far as the ecoboost v6 is concerned, watch the 6 episodes of "ecoboost torture test" on Youtube. Worn out at 80k, i dont think so. That 355 hp v6 is bad a**, awesome low end torque. Id trade the Assault out of Legacy for one anyday. I might be biased though, I am a Ford employee and was excited to see the news.

92SupraComp

11-21-2013, 07:18 PM

Exactly my thought, how long will everyone want that ol chevy (whos architecture was designed in the 50's) when much better powertrains are available? despite what some people think, the ford modular is an excellent motor with excellent reliability. It has a superior torque curve and there are alot of aftermarket performance accessories. Look at the mustang performance market.. And as far as the ecoboost v6 is concerned, watch the 6 episodes of "ecoboost torture test" on Youtube. Worn out at 80k, i dont think so. That 355 hp v6 is bad a**, awesome low end torque. Id trade the Assault out of Legacy for one anyday. I might be biased though, I am a Ford employee and was excited to see the news.

Where can I find a 60 Year Old LS3?? I would very much like to know! Oh wait, I can't! Its only 5 years old! Based on 15 year old tech! And guess what, the Ford Modular is older! You are confused between Chevy 350 and GM LS series LS3... Completely different motors and technology...

eyespyautomotive

11-21-2013, 07:34 PM

I stand corrected. Ill still take the Raptor 6.2 motor over the LS3 though. Maybe Indmar did some testing themselves and determined its a better motor. If the LS3 was so great then I am sure they would have stayed with it. There are so many factors that may have come into play though, possibly a better deal with Ford,a GM warranty issue, supply chain, plant closings, whatever. Maybe GM decided they wanted out, you never know. All you can hope is Indmar did their homework and decided that was a better route.

92SupraComp

11-21-2013, 08:06 PM

OH yes, I'm very sure. With PCM as competition I bet they would not want to make the wrong move! I wonder what the reason was though... GM is already well under way on the entire new line of V8's. They are going back to the LT name basis :eek: :cry: They already have the LT-# motors from Chevy back in the 70's and 80's, then in the 90's they brought in the LT# such as the LT1 for the updated Gen II motors... Why, why?? Its going to get real confusing instead of coming up with a new distinct name basis...

ssa

11-21-2013, 09:03 PM

92SupraComp

11-21-2013, 09:10 PM

Mastercraft dumped Indmar for Ilmor engines because they didn't like that their competition was able to use the same motors they used. Indmar probably is just wanting to offer a wider variety of engines to satisfy their customers and retain their business.

Indmar is dumping GM. So they aren't "widening" their variety...
They switched out to the heavier Ford 6.2L instead of the lighter GM LS3...

ssa

11-21-2013, 09:19 PM

I haven't read anywhere that their going to exclusively offer Ford engines. Maybe I missed it. But if that's the case then their going to replace the GM 5.7, 6.0, and 6.2 with the Ford 6.2l? And if they're going to use other Ford engines to replace the smaller lower horse GM engines what does ford have to offer that's competitive price wise with the 5.7.

ssa

11-21-2013, 09:25 PM

Regardless even if they are going all Ford based it makes their engines unique which is what my original point was with Mastercraft using them.

toddg

11-21-2013, 11:02 PM

Indmar marketing manager told me while they are moving to Ford, they maintain the relationship with GM at the same time. Don't know exactly what that means, but it doesn't sound like DUMPING.

Supposedly, also - tomorrow big announcement from Supra. No idea what that might be.

92SupraComp

11-22-2013, 12:25 AM

hmmmmm... Well considering Correct Craft just had a *big* announcement on their new 21 ft wakeboat I bet Supra has done something about it!

I dont care for the new boats. They dont impress me that much, yeah some are cool but eh, too new for me. Boats should be simple. Im old school. So really, why do I bother with this Indmar thing?...

cadunkle

11-27-2013, 11:21 AM

Just like the handful of guys who put mod motors in classic cars or other oddball applications... Why? Those small displacement engines are physically huge and of course very complex and expensive. Why in the world would anyone put a mod motor where a 460 based engine will fit? 460 is not as wide, important in a boat if you want to be able to walk around the engine in a DD or have maximum storage or ballast room in a vdrive. 460 is only slightly taller than a mod motor depending on oil pan and intake choice, and height is a less critical measurement. Also cheaper, more displacement (torque), less maintenance cost, fewer parts to fail.

I'm not impressed with any overhead cam engine in this application. Tow boat engines should be big displacement pushrod engines. I'm a Ford guy and it drives me nuts that my boat has a 454. If it ever dies though, it'll likely be getting a stroked 460. If I was given a new boat and the choice was a SBC or a Ford mod motor, I'd have to take the SBC even in its new age fuel infected form these days.

dschnei6

11-27-2013, 12:25 PM

I'm a Ford guy too and love the 460. I have a 73 Ford LTD with a 460 that I will never part with. But my next boat will have Ford 6.2L in it... :)

cadunkle

11-27-2013, 07:35 PM

Now don't get me wrong the mod motors, at least 4.6, is a proven design. They'll go 300K+ in taxis and perform well enough for a point A to B passenger car. Overhead cam and all the associated complexity wouldn't be my personal choice, but in that application they do fine. In a truck or a towboat, no way. I recall Chevy did a blind test of a SBC based pushrod engine and a new overhead cam engine in Corvettes some years ago. Identical cars otherwise and had many people drive them and compare which felt faster and which they liked better. Despite being similar displacement and HP, the pushrod engine felt like it had a lot more low end grunt and thus more powerful to the test drivers, hence why Chevy's bread and butter is still a SBC based pushrod V8.

Overhead cams add lots of complexity and are best suited to higher RPM. Go back to the Ford 427 SOHC. It was a screamer, capable of running 7500+ RPM all day. Very expensive complex compared to a regular FE. The high RPM advantage comes from eliminating pushrods and lifters. That's a lot of weight that accelerates, decellerates and changes direction quickly. With an overhead cam you don't have as much weight on the other side of the spring so less valve spring pressure is required and hence the valves don't get abused as hard as with pushrods and lifters. Sustained high RPM is the only reason to go OHC, and in an application that requires high torque across a broad RPM range an OHC engine just seems like a square peg/round hole scenario to me.

92SupraComp

11-28-2013, 01:54 AM

don't forget the OHC 427 had a 6 FT TIMING CHAIN! People avoided the motor because under long and hard runs the chain would stretch and cause the cams to come out of sync...

Also, remember, big difference between Chevy Small Block 350 and GM LS series V8's which are used in all GM trucks, SUV's, some cars, and the sports cars, as well as new boats...

The aftermarket world still uses the GEN III LS base motors because thats GM provides and also its currently most reliable. What do most classic fords receive? A Chevy 350. What do most performance fords and other brands cars receive? GEN III GM LS motors... They are cheap, plentiful, and very reliable... Also, the LS motors are lighter than the Chevy 350 and Ford 351W... (tons light than the 351M lol)

OHC has no hydraulic spring/damper vs push rod which does. Thats why my friend 2007 F-150 with 5,4L only has pull around 2K rpm (where torque is) and over 4K rpm, and then the GEN IV 5.3L (LC9) in our 2007 Suburban feels like it has more pull than his 5.4L...

cadunkle

12-03-2013, 11:42 AM

don't forget the OHC 427 had a 6 FT TIMING CHAIN! People avoided the motor because under long and hard runs the chain would stretch and cause the cams to come out of sync...

People didn't avoid the 427 SOHC, it simply was never offered in any production vehicle. It was a parts counter item though and was generally available to the public for around $3400, about what it cost in '64-'68 to get a 427 or 428 Galaxie. Your average weekend warrior wasn't going to spend as much as he spent on his car, or more than he spent on his car if you're talking a Fairlane. It was made for Nascar to compete with the 426 hemi and run 8000+ RPM all day. Cam timing at high RPM was an issue with a nearly 6' long timing chain and was addressed by advancing the timing on the passenger side cam 4* so at high RPM the cams were timed the same.

Not sure what you mean by most classic Fords get a SBC. Most Fords I see 50s through 70s have Ford engines. Most are SBF though you see FEs and 385 series as well. Less common are flatheads, and it's quite rare that I see a Y block. The only Fords I see with Chevy engines in any quantity are 30s and 40s Fords. Flatheads are expensive to build and don't make nearly the power of a modern engine like the SBF or SBC. SBF and SBC are essentially the same. It's cheaper and easier to swap a SBC into those early Fords as when those cars were more popular SBC was cheaper to build and had more aftermarket parts available hence most conversion parts were made for that engine, and a trend was set. Maybe it's a regional thing, but it's pretty rare to see a SBC in a 50s-70s Ford around here and there are far more of those at shows and cruise nights than 30s-40s hot rods.