Refreshing the interior

[LoganP]

Hey all, while I have the engine out of my boat (due to low compression in a couple cylinders, lots of blow by, and water in the oil) I was going to pull my floor boards because there are a couple soft spots and redo the carpet. I searched floorboard removal but only got one hit that had nothing to do with removing the floorboards. Anyone done this before? Thanks in advance!

[jet]

yea check mine out below. Im 90% done and my buddy is starting his and I have to help. lol

[LoganP]

Thanks, hard to see pics on my phone but I'll check it out on my computer at lunch break. Looks like we have similar projects going on, I have my motor our too due to low compression, blow by, and water in oil. Figured it'd be a good time to take care of a couple soft spots in the floor.

[jet]

For some reason when the thread gets old the pics go away. Hopefully you can see a few and it helps.

[LoganP]

Are they glued down or screwed down? Can't seem to find any screws but if its glue its some tough stuff lol

[jet]

Is what glued or screwed??

[LoganP]

The plywood. I'm about to the point of taking a skill saw to it haha

[jet]

Oh, yes! Its originally stapled in from the factory (thats where the damaging water trickles in and rots it) and its also glued. lol. so find you a spot and start pulling up. To make things easier for me, I pulled the florr up but left intact the driver side while I built the other so i would have something to copy and measure. You can see more pics on my FB page also https://www.facebook.com/andrewjetm Look under down loads and boat album.

[LoganP]

Awesome, thanks I'll check it out. Most all the plywood is out now. Have some moisture in the back sections, and some dry rot up front.

[LoganP]

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/IMG_20130525_101926_564_zps7a1ed7dc.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/IMG_20130525_101926_564_zps7a1ed7dc.jpg.html)

[LoganP]

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140114_163509_zps7d7c4fc9.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140114_163509_zps7d7c4fc9.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140114_163557_zpseea06973.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140114_163557_zpseea06973.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140115_091937_zps71991cae.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140115_091937_zps71991cae.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140115_091953_zpsb407e9a4.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140115_091953_zpsb407e9a4.jpg.html)
This is what oil is supposed to look like right?

[LoganP]

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140115_104408_zps7f2e12d3.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140115_104408_zps7f2e12d3.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140115_112609_zpsdd7c656d.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140115_112609_zpsdd7c656d.jpg.html)
Water on top of #4. Interesting. Probably due to cracks inside of exhaust manifolds from previous owner freezing it up. Also could explain water in oil.

[LoganP]

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140115_1406530_zpse9d95159.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140115_1406530_zpse9d95159.jpg.html)
Also not a good sign.

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140115_150307_zps929b0ad3.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140115_150307_zps929b0ad3.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140115_150558_zps3be4c4dd.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140115_150558_zps3be4c4dd.jpg.html)
From in boat to bare block in 7 hours 30 minutes

[LoganP]

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140121_111925_zpsca2975ca.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140121_111925_zpsca2975ca.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140121_111940_zps5613f1c9.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140121_111940_zps5613f1c9.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140121_114905_zps4dbd07b8.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140121_114905_zps4dbd07b8.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140121_114912_zpsf6a3f492.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140121_114912_zpsf6a3f492.jpg.html)
Yummy.

[TitanTn]

Good progress. Im going through an engine rebuild right now too.

What are you planning to do with the floor/stringers?

[LoganP]

Stringers appear to be amazingly in good shape! Surprised me as the plywood had a couple soft spots in it. Going to reseal the stringers, all new marine plywood and fiberglass and carpet.

The water in oil ruined the crank and cylinder walls. By the time I got the crank turned and bought undersize bearings, had the cylinders bored over and bought new pistons and rings, I was within a few hundred dollars of a complete stroker kit so I'm stepping up to 408ci among other upgrades.

[LoganP]

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140130_120324_zps5bc729de.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140130_120324_zps5bc729de.jpg.html)
New cross members in

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140202_141731_zps120ba763.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140202_141731_zps120ba763.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/The%20Supra/20140202_175005_zps27e9adc4.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/The%20Supra/20140202_175005_zps27e9adc4.jpg.html)
Finally! Done fitting plywood. On to waterproofing, gluing it down, and fiberglass.

[TitanTn]

Looking good!

Be sure to seal the bottom side of the plywood somehow. Most fiberglass both sides, but something needs to be done to prevent the new floor from acting like a sponge.

[Salty87]

scrub and paint the bilge? you'll prob regret dropping a fresh engine in and not doing that.

[LoganP]

I'm going to do that Kwik Poly on the bottom side, it soaks into the wood and really stiffens it up in addition to water proofing. I'm quite impressed by the stuff. Will be using fiberglass on top to keep from wearing on the wood. And I've been thinking a nice new floor and engine should get a nice new coat of bilge paint to go with it.

[Salty87]

what's the cylindrical black object connected to the white pvc pipe in the bilge?...blower?

[LoganP]

Yeah. There's one there that draws from under the engine and there's one that draws air from under the center rear seat above the prop shaft. They both have motors in line with the fans inside the tubes.

[LoganP]

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/20140214_162654_zpszgnn4wso.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/20140214_162654_zpszgnn4wso.jpg.html)
Fiberglass work. Heck with that stuff. So glad it's done now. Gonna try to lay carpet this weekend and hopefully the engine is back from the machine shop this week for reassembly.

[TitanTn]

Yeah, it's messy, smelly, and back-breaking. But it's a good skill to have. I've used my fiberglassing skills on several other projects since that I only attempted since rebuilding my boat.

[cadunkle]

Why leave the foam? Was it dry all the way to the bottom? Hope you treated of glassed the crossmembers supporting the joints too.

[LoganP]

I was surprised it was all dry under there after reading how many people had moisture issues when they pulled up the floor. Granted I live in a desert and this boat has been kept under cover its whole life (knew the guy I bought it from since I was born, farming community you know?) so it always had a good chance to dry out. Any exposed wood under the plywood and including the underside of the plywood got a coat of Kwik-Poly, and I poured some in the pilot holes I drilled before I screwed everything down with stainless screws.

[LoganP]

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/20140218_164845_zpspnargtr8.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/20140218_164845_zpspnargtr8.jpg.html)
Got busy this weekend, but going to lay carpet today. Everything is cut out now and ready to glue down.

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/1392753881641_zpslxadsan6.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/1392753881641_zpslxadsan6.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/1392753940297_zpseuenmaah.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/1392753940297_zpseuenmaah.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/1392753968250_zpsk8dk1yka.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/1392753968250_zpsk8dk1yka.jpg.html)
Got the block back from the machine shop and got the bottom end put together. I ended up throwing a 408 stroker kit in it, fully balanced of course, with 9:1 pistons and a custom cam from Comp Cams. Also getting an Edelbrock Performer intake manifold and putting a set of Comp Cam valve springs in it. Already has a Edelbrock 650 carb and Mallory ignition system on it.

[TitanTn]

That's a great update, and thanks for the pics. Looks like you're rolling along nicely. My only issue with all of this is that the thread title is no longer accurate. This is WAY beyond an interior refresh!

[LoganP]

Well it started out as asking about some interior stuff because I don't know that much about it, there's not much left as far as that goes. Just gotta throw some carpet on the taller frame for the engine cowl I built to accommodate the taller intake manifold and carburetor wedge plate, then rebuild the frame under the rear bench seat and the interior is done. I've built engines before and just thought I'd throw in those updates along the way haha I tend to not leave anything stock.

[cadunkle]

Cool! What heads are you planning to run? What cam? Any particular power or speed goals or just want well rounded more power while it's out?

[LoganP]

Stock heads, refreshed and resurfaced with Comp Cams dual valve springs. The cam is a custom Comp Cams unit, not something you can just order out of a book. It is designed for a very broad power curve with emphasis on low end torque but without choking on the top end like most low end torque cams do. I'm 6'7" 270 lbs and my dad is 6'9" 300lbs, we are quite hard to pull out of the water so power out of the hole is quite nice, and maybe just some to play with haha. Shooting for about 300hp with 350 or so torque. Nothing crazy but should be fun.

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/1392952440017_zpsbpmwpxfn.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/1392952440017_zpsbpmwpxfn.jpg.html)

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/Mobile%20Uploads/2013-12/Snapchat-20131225052730_zpsmgc2aztr.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2013-12/Snapchat-20131225052730_zpsmgc2aztr.jpg.html)

[cadunkle]

Running those heads will leave a lot of power on the table and that cam will not be any better on top end than whatever PCM put in these. I would port those heads, at least the exhaust side. Probably worth about 30 HP and should let it continue to make decent power at higher RPM. That is a straight up torque cam trying to compensate for the very restrictive exhaust ports on those heads and with fairly low lift.

This should give you a good idea of that combination. Head flow numbers are off D0OE heads which will flow a bit better than your later heads but be somewhat similar. What specific head castings are you using and what valve sizes? I may be able to figure on more accurate flow numbers for those heads, and also I'm wondering what the chamber size and dish size is. It's been a while since I've built any small blocks but I believe 351w chambers were fairly small around 60-64 cc which would put your compression with a 22cc dish (guessing, based on common 408w kits I see) around 9.8:1, not 9:1. With that cam if you're actually at 9.8:1 your dynamic compression will be quite high and you may have detonation issues on pump gas. Anywho... the chart...

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Misc/408wLoganP_1.jpg

[LoganP]

Interesting. This is my first small block build (I'm a diesel guy, I've built some 5.9 Cummins engines before) and I'm going off of what the guys at Comp Cams told me about the cam when I told them what I wanted to do with this engine, and what the guys at the machine shop told me when we were discussing working over the bottom end and block. My original idea was polish up the crank, balance the bottom end, and throw in some 9:1 pistons. They got back to me a few days later, said by the time they did that and bore out the block due to some cylinder wall scarring, they could have this 408 stroker kit in there with pistons that would be "just a little over 9:1" for only a couple hundred dollars more. I have the heads on, but I can get you the casting numbers later today.

[cadunkle]

Comp guys got you a cam fairly well suited for a moderate power marine engine with poor flowing factory heads, that's why the split duration is so heavily biased towards the exhaust side. It's not a bad cam at all for a marine application, but it is not a low end broad torque and high RPM cam. You can't have your cake and eat it too, certainly not with those restrictive exhaust ports.

As is it'll make a lot of torque on a flat curve, but with the exhaust ports as cast on those heads and the additional displacement it just runs out of breathe quick. Torque should come on quick and it'll jump out of the hole when you give it a handful. This engine won't want to pull as well under load to as high a RPM as a 351, but it will have a lot more torque under max RPM which would allow it to turn a bigger prop so more MPH at a given RPM and easier to hold a steady speed.

Big upgrade among the CC guys is GT40 or GT40P heads, either with or without port work. They are relatively cheap and flow a lot better even as cast than the smog era heads on these engines from PCM. It's a tossup between GT40 heads or aftermarket aluminum as if they need much work it's easy to have over half the cost of better flowing aftermarket aluminum heads into a pair. Either way that route is a decent upgrade, as is porting what you've got.

For comparison, here are numbers for your engine with only input changes being the flow data changed to reflect a moderate port job on both intake and exhaust. The gains are significant at higher RPM. Please do check the head casting so we can determine chamber volume and also check what pistons you have so we can verify your compression ratio. I'm assuming a 22c dish on the pistons as that seems most common in that type of piston among 408w kits.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Misc/408wLoganP_2.jpg

[LoganP]

Only casting number I found that was the same on both heads was "7D4"

[cadunkle]

That's the date code, likely April 4 1987 the heads were cast. The actual casting number that tells us what type of head they are is on the bottom of the head in the area the lifters go through. With heads on but no intake you can probably see it with a small mirror, though I've never tried that way it should be visible.

[LoganP]

Oh I see, I thought it was in with the castings up by the valves. Well I'm beyond that point now, so we will just assume it has stock heads that every other one in that era came with. If I don't like how it runs, I'll look into some GT40 heads. I really appreciate the input. I'm new to the small block world, all the people that know me are asking why I haven't dropped a twin turbo 6BT Cummins in it yet haha.
http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g471/Loganp333/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/29d30eef-7afc-48c8-8929-1e55ffa71e9e_zps0a47c08d.jpg (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/Loganp333/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/29d30eef-7afc-48c8-8929-1e55ffa71e9e_zps0a47c08d.jpg.html)

[cadunkle]

Best case I think if you've got heads flowing a bit worse than what I used for numbers but larger chambers. I'm more concerned about compression and octane requirement given the conditions a boat engine sees, and that you may have trouble running on pump gas.

Best case looks like about 9.37:1. Worst case nearly 10.3:1, and there are several possibilities in between. I haven't run dynamic compression numbers on either of those but if 9.37:1 you should be alright on pump gas. High 9s to 10 or more and you'll be fighting detonation on pump gas and end up with a very inefficient timing curve which will leave power on the table in order to avoid the engine grenading itself. In a higher compression higher load application we generally do things like minimize quench distance and polish chambers to increase detonation resistance. Unless you've got a much larger dish in those pistons or have them well below the deck (which would make it more detonation prone, despite lowering compression), I don't see how you've got 9:1 compression.

I don't know all the specific components of your build and I haven't blueprinted your engine, so I'm just going off typical values along with some suppositions and thus could be wrong. It is critical during an engine build to blueprint things when deviating far from stock (such as stroker engines) to be sure what you've got will work for the intended application and conditions. I can relate though as I've built plenty of gas engines mild to wild but am new to the diesel world and turbos. I'll be doing some performance improvements and other work to my first diesel project soon so I've been trying to learn as much as I can before diving in. Sizing turbos is still a mystery to me.

[LoganP]

Define pump gas. Do you mean regular unleaded or does that include premium as well? All I run is premium non-ethanol. If I have to run a little octane booster I suppose that's what I'll have to do. I'm also going to be giving Eagle a call and asking if what their guy told me was totally accurate. And feel free to shoot me a PM if you have any diesel questions, I'm not the be-all end-all source of information but I know more than a thing or two about diesels.

[cadunkle]

Pump gas being highest octane you can get at the pump, not race gas and not aviation fuel. Around here that's 93 octane, in many areas it's 91. On the water I've seen anywhere from 89 to 93, though commonly 89. Around 10:1 and you may have issues on 93 octane. Those are ballpark numbers, specifics depend on dynamic compression which depends on the cam, among other factors. The more mild a cam (wider LSA, less overlap, smoother and lower idle) the higher the dynamic compression.

Detonation is no joke, the 460 in my truck is 9.7:1 and to run 93 octane my timing curve is less than ideal for max power and economy particularly given the weight of a truck. I got bad gas one time and the damage included cracked rings in nearly every cylinder, damaged crank, rod bearings, etc... The damage was mostly done during a 20 minute run down the highway at 70 MPH windows down and radio up right after filling it so I didn't hear the detonation. Got off the highway and it was running a little rough at idle and I thought it had a slight tap. Compression test showed I had internal problems, pulled it out, tore it down, overnighted parts from Summit, more or less rebuilt it over the weekend and back on the road Monday morning to get to work. Very inconvenient for a daily driver, I believe it ended up costing me around $1500 and a very unpleasant surprise weekend with little sleep.

I'd verify specifically what pistons you have and what the dish volume is along with what heads you have and what the chamber volume is. Otheruseful information is what head gaskets are on it, piston height in relationship to deck. That way you can do the math yourself to be sure. Always verify.

[92SupraComp]

How accurate is that 400+ ft/lbs of torque?? If it is accurate, that is impressive...

[cadunkle]

Desktop Dyno is only as good as the numbers you put into it. The numbers are probably slightly high as we don't know what heads he's using and I may or may not have flow data on them. Torque is probably fairly close, it will make a LOT of torque and in a Comp should jump out of the hole real fast. Without knowing all the specs and components these numbers are just an educated guess from what we do know.

[LoganP]

Guess I never made time to get back on and finish this thread haha. Boat is all together, and I've had it down to the river a couple times. Getting the jetting and timing dialed in little by little. I run nothing but premium non-ethanol through it and it hasn't missed a beat yet! This thing practically jumps out of the water on hole shots! And it's very nice to be able to walk around on a floor that doesn't feel like it's about to give way with carpet that isn't mashed down from almost 30 years of use lol.

[TitanTn]

Need pics! Pics or it didn't happen - as they say!