Weird heat soak problem

[TitanTn]

New: battery cables and connectors, alternator, 10 month old starter, coil, plugs, 2 year old plug wires, newly rebuilt 7.4L.

I rebuilt my 454 over the winter. Bored .30 over, new pistons, lifters, head job, oil pump, cam, etc. I did nothing to the transmission other than paint it. I went through the break-in for the cam and then the rings. Timing is set to 10 degrees. It seems to be running great.

I've never been excited about how fast (it's slow) the engine turns over. But the batteries are both 1000 CCA and both have been tested to be within expected performance. My issue is that after running for 15 - 20 minutes - on the lake - it will not restart. It won't turn over. It tries to crank, but won't. The starter is very hot to the touch, and the transmission bell housing is also very hot. On several different lake tests I have cooled the starter with cold lake water and within a few minutes it will turn over again - albeit slowly. I've bench tested the starter and it seems to work as it should. I really think the bell housing is getting hot for some reason and the starter is getting heat soak. I don't know. Could I have installed something weird with the damper plate?

Now for the strange part. When I get the engine started after one of these non-crank situations, it is a pill to keep idling. It just stumbles all over itself. Anything over 1,200 rpms runs great. I can seemingly go as long as I want until I slow down and try to idle (sucks because at this point I'm trying to load on the trailer).

I can confirm that the starter is letting go of the flywheel after starting the engine. I'm confused about why things are heating up. I can't reproduce the issue on the trailer. It seems that I have to be in gear and running on the lake. Transmission oil is fresh, smells fine, and shows no sign of water.

[Zim]

Are you SURE the timing is set correctly?

That's a big motor...

[TitanTn]

Specs call for the initial timing to between 5-9 degrees. I'm right in-between 9 and 10 right now.

[2500HD]

is there a possibility that something isn't aligned correctly between the engine and tranny? This could create a drag and heat.

[CJD]

What temp thermostat are you running?

Also, when trying to start are you getting the solenoid click, or nothing at all?

[TitanTn]

is there a possibility that something isn't aligned correctly between the engine and tranny? This could create a drag and heat.

I'm wondering that too, but I'm not really sure what would be out of alignment. I don't know that there's any adjustment.


What temp thermostat are you running?

Also, when trying to start are you getting the solenoid click, or nothing at all?

I'm running the stock 145 degree stat. When the overheat happens the engine will make an attempt to turn over, but it never actually completes a full revolution and then it's silent.

[michael hunter]

Are there any heat shields around the starter?

[TitanTn]

Are there any heat shields around the starter?

No, there's not. Never have been that I know.

[chris young]

Can you locate the hottest item? ie is the starter gettting hot and heating the rest of the bell housing area or the other way around? I'm wondering if your tranny cooler is plugged. What you might do, is borrow or buy an IR thermometer, take the boat out for a run an keep measuring temperatures in the area and pinpoint the heat source.

I've never heard of this, but I have experienced some pretty funky solenoid and relay issues in my former employ as an avionics technician, so anything is possible. I'm wondering if your starter solenoid might be hanging up just enough to pull current though the starter circuit without actually turning the starter, so over time it slowly heats up. The problem with this is it doesn't explain the shitty idle. Unless you have a ballast resistor bypass on your solenoid. Then you could be overheating the ignition coil as well and it might exhibit all the symptoms you describe. Good news is this is all easy to check. Even without the IR thermometer, you could just go for a cruise and keep checking by hand the starter, bell housing, transmission, solenoid, and ignition coil. Probably with it heating up so much the starter won't turn, you'll locate your heat source pretty fast.

Good luck, let's hope the engine build is not the issue, that would truly suck.

[michael hunter]

Rob I bounced this off my brother in law he was a truck mechanic for rider . He said they had the same problem with the trucks the fix was a heat shield on the starter. If I remember correctly GM used a heat shield on their starters so it shouldn't be hard to find. Also check the battery cables hots and especially grounds if you are having connection issues when hot low voltage can effect the ignition.Check voltage at all the components at the time of fail. Are the cables getting hot?

[TitanTn]

Chris - thank for the thoughts. I actually do have a infrared thermometer and plan on using the next time I go out. In the past, by feel, the starter and the bell housing feel equally hot. I do know that tranny fluid is flowing out of the transmission but I don't know if it's actually going through the cooler. The solenoid funkiness is a possibility, although both the starter and the remote solenoid are new. I don't have a ballast resister bypass. It is connected as it should be. It has a new coil, but I haven't been on the water with it yet.

Michael - I'd be glad to put a shield on it, but I really feel that the heat is coming from the bell housing to which it's mounted. There's no way to shield that. The cables aren't getting hot, and I have 12.8 volts at the solenoid when the issue occurs. Of course when you try to crank and it won't turn over, the voltage drops in half.

[CJD]

GM starter solenoids are known to have issues with heat. It's usually when the contacts get old and corroded, so they have high resistence. In a boat, I don't think you need a heat shield, as the exhaust is not near the starter like on a car. Plus, with a 145 degree thermostat you just don't get the amount of heat that a car does with a 190 degree. It is likely just an old solenoid. Now the bad news, when a starter gets the power but does not turn, it absorbs the current like a short...so it builds up a lot of heat. In other words, you can fry the starter from a bad solenoid.

The first thing I would check is all the high amp cables from the battery to the starter for corrosion and good connection. Bad connections are the usual problem. If that does not fix it...then look at replacing the starter solenoid.

[Jetlink]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the starter is only 10 months old and he ran all new wiring.

[TitanTn]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the starter is only 10 months old and he ran all new wiring.

Yes. The starter and wiring is less than 10 months old. The remote solenoid is brand new. I just don't see this as an old/corrosive type of issue. Another way to say it (to be confirmed with infrared measurements) is that the heat which is stopping the starter from working is not "normal" heat. If it were normal, then wires, connections, etc might be the issue. But this is not normal, this is abnormally high heat that is incapacitating the starter. And since I've checked all the wires and connections, that's not the cause.

This is why I've come to the conclusion that it's heat soak. I just don't know why the tranny bell housing is getting so hot. My best guesses at this point are that something is not assembled correctly in the damper plate area, or the cooler is not doing its job.

[haugy]

When you ran it, and the starter was super hot, was the bellhousing? How about the transmission body?

Even if the tranny was running hot, it would have to be ridiculously hot to transfer all the heat up the bellhousing enough to then heat the starter. I think you would know as you would probably smell burnt tranny fluid at that point.

Is the starter somehow allowing current to pass through it without engaging it somehow? The current is then superheating the starter? I don't know I'm grasping at straws here.

[wotan2525]

How has this thread gone this far? The only possible thing that can make a starter hot is electricity. You've said that it's not the wires and it's not corrosion and you've got good voltage. That means it's the starter or the solenoid.

Plenty of DB starters have gone bad in less than 10 months. You've got a dud. Replace it or take it to a local shop and have them troubleshoot it. Something is shorting inside of there and you're just going to drive yourself crazy when a <$100 part can fix it. Plus, it's still under warranty and you just have to pay return shipping to replace it.

[SquamInboards]

I'm with wotan on this one. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's not a problem, in fact because it's new it's automatically a variable in your problem. Sometimes it's nice to replace a bunch of stuff together, but then if you have a problem afterward, it can be hard to pinpoint. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating waiting for a failure to replace parts. Nor am I advocating throwing parts at a problem! BUT I think you'd be wise to have the starter checked out and/or replaced under warranty in this case.

[CJD]

That's what I was trying to say. If its not wires...it's the solenoid. And...the starter likely got fried by the bad solenoid. it's usually caused by corrosion...but doesn't have to be. Some of the Chinese junk is bad right out of the box.

I once replaced 3 starters from Autozone in 3 weeks. I finally got my money back and went straight to an AC Delco dealer. It cost twice as much, but was SO worth it!

[TitanTn]

I hear you guys, but clarify this for me. I can understand the starter being bad, even though it's fairly new. But the remote solenoid is bad too? It's brand new. And the only way the starter can be getting power is if the remote solenoid isn't working correctly. Seems odd.

[CJD]

I apologize...I thought you had the big block Chevy with the integrated solenoid. Remote solenoid is different situation. What happens if you jump the cables across the remote solenoid?

[chris young]

Titan Tin, you are absolutely correct. The starter can be bad, but in order for that to be causing the overheat problem the solenoid must be bad too. Really easy to check though, disconnect the +ve terminal from the starter and check for voltage at the starter side of the solenoid with the key on. If you don't see anything, I'd say your problem is elsewhere. If you want to be double sure, set your meter to DC A and put it in between the starter and the solenoid. (don't try to start it or you'll blow the fuse in your meter) Another easy test is to start the boat, disconnect the starter and take her out. Then there will be no question whatsoever if the starter still gets hot. I also agree with Squaminboards, new doesn't mean good. I'll always take "known working" over new any day when troubleshooting. But at least in this case you don't have to throw any parts at it to get a long way down the road to finding out what the problem is.

P.S. I just re read your post and you say the solenoid is brand new? As in never been in the boat without this problem brand new? If that's the case, I'd say very high probability of the solenoid being the culprit.

[TitanTn]

I really appreciate all of the input and suggestions. You guys are great. Let me try to be more specific in regards to the last two posts:

The remote solenoid is new, but the exact problem existed before adding the remote solenoid. The wiring setup has been the same since I received the boat several years ago. The remote solenoid wasn't used - only the one on the starter itself was used. After rebuilding (which included a new alternator) and having this heat soak issue, I didn't like how the alternator was charging back through the solenoid on the starter. So I put in the remote solenoid. There was already one on the boat, but it wasn't being used. I think the setup is now how it's supposed to be. It hasn't changed the heat soak issue, but now (if the remote solenoid is working correctly) the starter only gets power when the key is turned to "start".

So Wotan and others might be exactly right. The starter could be causing a problem. But since it's basically isolated now and not engaged while the engine is running, and the same problem existed before I started using the remote solenoid, I still think it's something else. I like the idea of getting the boat started and completely disconnecting the starter to see if it happens.

[CJD]

So, do I understand that you have both the remote solenoid and the starter solenoid?

[chris young]

No need for 2 solenoids for sure. I'm not sure what you mean about your alternator charging back through the starter solenoid, if everything is working as it should, that's impossible. I found this basic diagram that somebody kindly posted up on the net that may be of help14061

There are other configurations, but in this case I think this is how your boat should wired, basically. Since you have a starter with an integrated solenoid, you can just consider the solenoid shown in the diagram as being part of the starter. As you can see there should be no path to charge through the solenoid. Now in your case, if you have it wired such that the remote solenoid is as it's shown in the diagram and you have a starter with integrated solenoid, and you had the heat soak before wiring in the remote solenoid, then, theoretically it can't be the starter, as the remote solenoid would have isolated the problem. Either there are wires going where they shouldn't, or it's not an electrical problem.

I think you need to get it disconnected after you get it running, that's the simplest way to learn a lot in a short period of time, and, you might as well take your surface temp readings at the same time since you've already got the ir thermometer (lucky bastard, I wish I had one)

[CJD]

I think what he means is that the large alternator charging wire was connected to the large battery cable on the integrated starter solenoid. This is very typical...and is actually how it is shown on Chris' diagram. The battery cable on the starter is just a convenient place to feed the battery without having to run a length of 8 gage wire all the way forward to where the batteries are.

Here's where I get confused. If there is a second remote solenoid, that makes the large cable on the starter integrated solenoid "cold". So where did you route the alternator charging wire?

And, if you do have a double solenoid for starting...that is really not a good idea. Every solenoid has a small amount of resistance. When you are putting several hundred amps through 2 solenoids, the result is a drop in available voltage to the starter AND a lot of heat in the solenoids.

Also, the smaller "start" wire to the solenoid coil draws several amps for each solenoid. This is double what the start switch on the dash is designed to take. You may be cooking the contacts in the key switch...thereby reducing the voltage available to hold 2 solenoids engaged...which will induce arcing in the solenoid contacts. Arcing can fry the contacts in short order. Causing sticking, loss of voltage, and/or a ton of heat.

Remote solenoids, as in physically separate from the starter, are used in many Ford engines. Ford uses an inertial pinion to engage the flywheel. GM has always used an integral starter/solenoid, whereby the solenoid engages the pinion...not dependent on inertia. In neither system should you have 2 solenoids.

[ssa]

My 95 454 has both the integral starter solenoid and the remote one. As far as I can tell it's factory.

[TitanTn]

CJD - you're exactly right in describing and understanding the setup. However, I agree with SSA that the remote solenoid looks like a factory setup. I don't know how it was actually wired originally, but the remote solenoid looks like it's mounted in a factory location.

I do like the new way I wired things because it does only route power to the integral starter solenoid when you're in a crank scenario. However, I wasn't aware that it would take that much power to run the additional, remote solenoid. I certainly wouldn't mind replacing the switch just so I can eliminate it being an issue. I can also wire it so as to not use the remote solenoid.

I did a run this evening on the lake and because I didn't do constant driving, the testing was a little inconclusive. For the most part, everything ran better, but it's still not exactly right. I did have one instance of a time when it wouldn't crank. The bell housing was 127 degrees and the starter was 117. Not really that hot from my thinking. I cooled it down with some water and got it to turn over and start. I'm wondering if these temps are actually normal, but the starter and/or solenoid just can't take it. My new plans are to replace the key switch and to send the starter back to DB Electrical. I'll let them test it and see what it needs.

[ssa]

Titan I'm taking mine out tomorrow to test everything out since I removed my running gear over the winter and want to make sure that everything is good to go. I'll check mine out and see how hot the bellhousing and starter get. I was wondering if its normally rather hot and you wouldn't know because most of us probably don't touch any of that while its at operating temp unless we were to have a problem like your having. The remote solenoid on our GM starters is to insure that 12 volts reaches the start terminal on the integral solenoid. All race cars I have ever worked on always use a remote solenoid before the GM starter. With headers or hot exhaust period on a car/truck the heat will cause GM starters to not work. So you can do one of two things wire through the remote solenoid and insure 12 volts reaches the start terminal or install heat shields like Michael said. But since on our boats exhaust heat isnt a issue you need the remote solenoid. I'm thinking the bellhousing heat may be normal and that possibly your original wiring configuration with the high amp alternator did something to the starter/solenoid. One question I was wondering about from looking at the diagram that you posted on your restoration thread was is your positive cable from the battery connected to the starter directly or through the remote solenoid? Mines connected to the starter and then a feed runs from there to the remote. The remote then returns a 12 volt leg back to the start terminal on the starter when the ignition switch energizes it. Basically its a heavy duty relay.

[michael hunter]

One more thing make sure you are using a high quality relay some of the big box auto stores sell cheap outsourced electrical parts . They look the same but wont last or function correctly.

[ssa]

Ok Titan had mine out for a run today and checked to see how warm the bellhousing and starter were. I don't have a ir gun but they felt to be in the 120 range by comparing them to the feel of the thermostat housing when the engine was around the 130 range.

[TitanTn]

Ok Titan had mine out for a run today and checked to see how warm the bellhousing and starter were. I don't have a ir gun but they felt to be in the 120 range by comparing them to the feel of the thermostat housing when the engine was around the 130 range.

Thanks so much for that. You've confirmed the direction of my new line of thinking. I ran some today also and the bell housing reached a max of 125. The starter reached a max of 117. My new line of thinking is along with what Wotan said - "Hey dummy. It's the starter." Even though the starter tested fine on the bench, I think it's not handling the heat well. I got through the events of the weekend that I needed it for, so I'm going to pull the starter out and send it back to DB Electrical for testing/repair/replacement.

[ssa]

Sounds like the best direction to go in.

[chris young]

We had a saying that got pulled out when people started to over analyse a problem "if the generator doesn't work, change the generator"

I deleted a paragraph, it made false statements:confused:

[CJD]

The only reason I can think for a second relay is for the failure mode where the starter solenoid contacts weld together...so the starter continues to turn after the engine starts. I had this happen and it totally cooked the starter. I had to disconnect the battery cables to get the starter to stop grinding the flywheel. It's a fairly rare failure...but I guess in a selaed boat it could be catastrophic if it did!?!

One check I might do before replacing the starter is to check the voltage drop across the large cables going into and out of the remote starter. If it is less than 1 volt...then it has to be your relay. If it's more than 1 volt drop, then the contacts in the remote relay are bad.

I don't think 117 degrees is enough heat to affect a good starter.

A final thought...what size battery cables did you run?

[TitanTn]

Again, thanks guys. Your collective experience is very helpful. I have 2 gauge cabling from the batteries.

[CJD]

2 gage is good! If the remote relay has little voltage drop, I think you are down to the starter itself...

[chris young]

Ok this is weird,

I just did a quick search, because the only reason I could see for using 2 solenoids was to bypass the contacts on the integral solenoid.
I found this; http://www.dbrstarters.com/FAQ_-_Starters___Alt.html and if you scroll down to the bottom of the page you'll see that they connect the control wire to the remote relay, and then the output goes to the battery terminal on the starter which is jumped to the control terminal.

As it turns out, it doesn't bypass anything, so the only conclusion is as CJD says, for safety in the case of a runaway starter. Go figure.

SSA does this configuration reflect what you've seen on race cars? If so, I don't see how it enhances reliablility.

Edit, see my next post, it's so the key switch and wiring doesn't have to take a 35 amp inrush.

[chris young]

I couldn't let it go so I did some more reading. This explains the whole thing quite well, the point of the remote solenoid is to take the stress off of the key switch. In figure 6, the short green wire with the arrow pointing to it, represents the jumper between the battery contact and the control contact on the starter.

www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf

This guy wires it a bit differently, but it does accomplish the same goal, and all the start current doesn't have to go through the remote relay, it does however loose the protection CJD supposed about though.

http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/solenoid.htm

Titan Tin, it may just be a case of making sure that your boat is wired as per these diagrams.

[CJD]

Interesting reading, Chris! So it appears, as you said, the purpose of the remote relay is to take the electrical load from the starter solenoid off the ignition switch.

Titan, I guess what that means is you can check to make sure this is the way your wiring goes. The solenoid on the starter should be wired so the small wire is jumped to the large 2 gage input wire. The switch should only go to the remote relay coil post.

So, if you have been running with the switch wire going straight to the starter solenoid...the switch may be acting up from being overloaded. That would be good news...in a way...since a switch is cheaper than a starter.

I learned something new!

[DAFF]

Check the ground on the block of the engine. Unbolt it and check the inside of the terminal, I have seen many which look perfect but are corroded on the inside. The added heat will cause a loss of amperage and the demand increases. Also make sure there is a good metal to metal contact on the back side of the starter.

[ssa]

Chris on the dbrstarters page that diagram that your referring to or the one on the old engine site either of the 2 are what you would typically see. As far as protecting the ignition switch that isnt what this is for. The author of that stated small import cars having a problem with their switches. Thats a problem with their switches you dont see or hear of people replacing ignition switches in their GM vehicles all the time due to excessive wear from high amp draw through them. If it was a problem gm would have fixed the problem by now i would think seeing as how they have used that design for decades. The remote solenoid isnt for safety or bypassing anything.This arrangement is for insuring full power reaches the start (S) terminal on the GM starters. When heat increases the voltage drops coming into that terminal due to the resistance in the wire going up. It takes a certain amount of voltage to close the contacts, once you get below that point the starter can't engage. The contacts won't close and the starter won't turn over. The remote solenoid makes sure it hammers the start terminal with a full 12 volts if its cold or hot. You don't get the problem with cold starters you get it with hot starters. A ignition switch wouldn't care if it was hot or cold if its bad its bad regardless of what the temp is. Titan stated that when he would cool the starter with water it would work again. So theres a problem at the starter either he isnt getting the voltage at the s terminal needed to engage the starter or there is something wrong inside the solenoid itself. If he's rewired the remote solenoid into the loop correctly and theres still a problem then it most likely the starter itself. If you can take a screwdriver and cross the battery and s terminals on the starter with the key on and engine off and get it to crank you have a voltage problem at the s terminal if it won't crank its in the starter.

[TitanTn]

Again, thanks guys. Great info. Mine is wired very similarly to the diagram you linked to, and whether it's accurate or not, I actually like my setup a little better. So in the diagram linked, the hot on the starter is always hot because the remote solenoid is only transferring power when trying to start. On the linked article the remote solenoid is only transferring the signal to activate the starter solenoid. It's easy to switch around, so I'll certainly try it.

I called DB Electrical today and they're sending me a new starter and I'm sending my old one back for a refund. One way or another we'll get this mystery solved. Thanks.

[Zim]

Not sure if it'll be helpful, but I was reading about a guy with an old 80's MC having starting issues similar to yours.

Symptoms included very slow to crank, and very hot wires.

Reason it was cranking slow was because over the winter condensation built up inside the starter causing corrosion.

New starter fixed the problem. Look into Arco starters.

[DAFF]

Hot wires is always a result of a bad connection or an internal direct to ground.

[chris young]

This is true, well sort of, bad connections are what heats up, not the wire itself, but a live wire leaking to ground (worn or cracked insulation) will do it for sure, and I doubt very highly that the remote relay has anything to do with hot wires anyway. Evidenced by Titan Tin's experience and the previously mentioned heat sheilds. He didn't cool the wires he cooled the starter. If you run 12ga wire 20' and run 35A though it, you drop about 1.1V and that's not allowing for any drop at the dirty old corroded key switch. BTW that number changes to 1.35V at 75*C, hardly enough to make a difference in starter performance and this also assumes the entire wire is at 75*, not just the bit in the doghouse.

As ssa pointed out, with the remote relay in place, full battery voltage goes direct to the s terminal, and I guess that's the important bit. It appears that when these starters get hot they don't work very well, so full battery voltage becomes important.

[92SupraComp]

Wait a minute... Are you using the remote solenoid on the back of the motor to switch the power feed AND signal feed for the actual starter? If so, that is bad! If a starter has its own solenoid always supply a constant 12 volt feed. It relies on the constant 12 volts to engage and DISENGAGE properly... It should be that the starter solenoid always has 12 volts and the remote solenoid switches the signal wire for the starter solenoid...

I have wired it both ways just as a test before and the wrong makes the starter work like crap and it stays engaged to the motor....

[TitanTn]

I didn't have any issues with the starter disengaging and this issue didn't change when I rewired it. It's been persistent from even when I wasn't using the remote solenoid.

So I got my new starter this week and just installed it. I've never heard this engine turn over faster. It's a HUGE difference. I went ahead and changed the wiring to the standard "Ford" solenoid setup as suggested above. So only time on the lake will tell, but I'm hopeful.

I'm hoping the rough running after a hard start is gone as well. I hadn't replaced the cap or rotor in several years and intended to do it after the rebuild but hadn't gotten to it and since it was running fine last year, I just wasn't in a rush with everything else going on. So I've replaced both of those items and splurged on some new, good quality plug wires.

I'm ready to go for a test run but this weekend has a lot of rain in the forecast. We'll see if I get a chance.

[chris young]

92SupraComp, yes that's it. I know on the surface that it seems weird, but if you do not run the control through the remote solenoid, then you're around a volt down because these GM starters have a high inrush current when the solenoid begins to pull, and you have quite a bit of wire between the battery and the control terminal on the starter. Additionally, it doesn't require full voltage to disengage at all, it relies on spring pressure and the fact that when the starter switch is released, both are in series until the contactor lets go and because the windings wound opposite the net magnetic force is immediately zero. (there are two windings on the solenoid which on start are in parallel, then one is shorted when the motor contactor is made, then the when the starter switch is released, both are in series until the contactor lets go. You can read this article www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf, it explains it all quite well.

Titan Tin, glad to hear things are running much better, keep us posted.

[TitanTn]

Hit the lake yesterday. Everything worked great, so I think the mystery is solved. It was ultimately the starter (which was less than one year old) but at least now I know I have all the wiring connected correctly.

Thanks again for everyone's help.


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[wotan2525]

http://i.imgur.com/d4qWa4h.gif

Just kidding.

Glad you got it resolved and hopefully this DB lasts a little longer!

[Zim]

DB is a bunch of chinese garbage. You'll likely get the same life from it.

[wotan2525]

So I got my new starter this week and just installed it. I've never heard this engine turn over faster. It's a HUGE difference. I went ahead and changed the wiring to the standard "Ford" solenoid setup as suggested above. So only time on the lake will tell, but I'm hopeful.

Karma is paying me back today. After coming into this thread and responding with "It's the starter, dummy!" I pull my boat out of storage and guess what? My DB starter from last year is completely shot. Same symptoms. Cranks slow, smokes, drops the voltage to 9v when it's trying to crank. I thought it was my batteries, my wiring, my relay -- basically did exactly the same thing as you did trying to convince myself it wasn't the starter. I was able to pull it out and spin it on the bench -- these seemed to "free it up" but it's still pretty sticky and non-efficient. I'm going to risk it tomorrow and order a new starter today.

IMHO, DB have gone pretty far downhill in the last few years. My first starter from them lasted 5 years. I've probably bought a dozen since then and none of them in the last 3 years have made it through the warranty period.

[TitanTn]

Sorry about that Wotan. I'm thinking the same about DB. I don't think the quality is there. But we all know what the bottom line is here... always be nice to TitanTn because Karma is watching!

[TitanTn]

Follow up: After much testing, I don't think this is a heat problem (and yeah, the problem never went away with the new starter). I think what's actually happening is that when I sit after running for a while, the carb is leaking fuel into whatever cylinders happen to have the intake valve open and thus is creating a situation where it has "too much compression." This explains why once I do get it to turn over - that it turns over easily again. I'm guessing that cooling the starter previously just gave it a little more cranking power to overcome the compression of gas issue. This also explains the rough running after a hard start episode. The reason I had ruled this out previously is because I just rebuilt the carb, but now I'm thinking there were some defective parts, I did something wrong, or whatever.

We'll see.

[lively]

Can you see fuel dripping after you shut it down ? If so on the 4160 the float levels are easy to set . I had that happen on my Holley and I bent the float tangs to leave the needle open longer to allow it to lower fuel levels after shut down . Just see if it's dripping . And double check the timing . Hard starts are almost always ign related


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[TitanTn]

I want to follow up with the answer to my problem. It was the carb. I think the new kit had a defective power valve and it was leaking fuel into the cylinders after I stopped. With another new kit in it, the boat ran flawlessly yesterday. No issue with cranking and never had any issues idling. Runs better than ever.

[CJD]

There have sure been a lot of carb issues this spring. Glad to hear it's running in time for some fun!

[michael hunter]

The fuel is worse than its ever been . I have had to change two carbs on my small engines . I tryed to rebuild but the only fix was replace. Now I drain all the fuel after using unless its used regularly.

[92SupraComp]

I had to JB weld the secondary plastic float in the Holley 4010 last summer. Tried running the comp in driveway for its first 2014 run and it bogged out right after it came to life. I instantly thought, oh crap, it ate through the primary... NOPE! The Ethanol (thank you gov't!) ATE the JB weld off of the plastic float! So I repaired it with two part epoxy this time, who knows how long it will last... I have metal floats on the way though! :D

[michael hunter]

The worse part is the ethanol cost more to produce is bad for everything in an engine and lessens gas mileage but we are forced to use it because of a government agenda.
If it wasn't heavily subsidized it would never make it in the market place.

[chris young]

One more happy result on carb issues. I finally got mine running smoother than it ever has, and in my case I could have adjusted the floats lower yet again, or...

PUT IN A WEDGE SPACER!;)

The fuel was dripping through one of the primary boosters and continuing after shut down. I installed two 5 degree spacers to level the carb and bam, the boat purrs like a kitten. I didn't have enough time to drill the spacers and install a vacuum port, so next visit I'll get that done, but WOW what a difference. Skied behind her yesterday, and the driver (beautiful wife) commented on how smooth and powererful the boat felt. Since there is no PCV input to the carb at this point, it is possible it's running better because the PCV was bad, but that wouldn't have affected the fuel dripping problem.

It's a relatively painless and cheap mod, even if you go the expensive route and buy the Holley spacer kit, but I think all these boats should have spacers. You'll fight float level issues all day long until that carb is level. Judging by the number of distributor caps, coils and starter solenoids that were left in the glove box by the PO I don't think this boat has run right in a long time.

[92SupraComp]

they do make 10* wedges so you don't have to deal with 2 5*... These are very popular on CC... Forgot people don't know about them...

[92SupraComp]

The worse part is the ethanol cost more to produce is bad for everything in an engine and lessens gas mileage but we are forced to use it because of a government agenda.
If it wasn't heavily subsidized it would never make it in the market place.

It may start to cease thankfully! The gov't is going to stop subsidizing and as soon as that happens no one is going to pay for it! Its awful. I don't care who you are or what you say!

1-it ruins everything!
2-you have to burn MORE for the same energy
3-because of 2 our mpg goes DOWN
4-because of 3 which is caused by 2 we are producing MORE emissions! (i dont care about this global warming bull crap! anyone remember the global cooling scare!??)
5-it takes a lot resources to produce, expensive!
6-raises food prices!
7-because of 6 it is taking food out of peoples mouths!

[chris young]

they do make 10* wedges so you don't have to deal with 2 5*.

Holley makes a 12* and it comes with all the bits, so it is the best way to go. In my case the Holley (P/N 717-2) was going to be a minimum of $250 delivered, and I couldn't find a supplier for the 10* aftermarket, the pair of wedges I bought through my local auto parts supplier was 100. A bit more fiddling for the install, but as I've been steadily buying stuff for the boat I couldn't see the value of the Holley part. If the holley had come ready with a vacuum port I may have been tempted, but the 2 wedges work very well.

[SquamInboards]

Glad to hear the issue is resolved for the OP - and although this isn't an ethanol issue, carb issues in general have been a constant battle since the introduction of ethanol around here. I run a heavy dose of stabilizer in my fuel for all my small engines, and I keep my 5-gal jug of fuel indoors to keep it in a low-moisture environment.

I would welcome the phase-out of ethanol-blended fuels, we shall see what our legislature can come up with. They don't seem to be able to accomplish much lately. It is quite telling that small planes STILL do not use ethanol-blended fuels, because of the concern for safety. But we get to use it in our boats, yay. It absolutely destroyed fiberglass fuel tanks when it first came out. The resulting mess was extremely expensive for many boat owners... good article from BoatUS here: http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fueltest.asp

[lively]

Glad you got it running right ! I love when a plan comes together !


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[Jetlink]

It is quite telling that small planes STILL do not use ethanol-blended fuels, because of the concern for safety.

Mmmmmm, 100LL...