PMGR starter.

[Brosh]

I have spent quite a bit of time looking for the proper way to wire a newer pmgr starter that I bought at db electrical and cannot for then life of me figure out why I can't get it to work properly.pictures below are what I have come to understand how they are typically wired but I received no instructions when I purchased the starter however there are plenty of diagrams online in ford forums. What happens is that I get a solitary click when I try to start the engine. It will turn over when I wire it incorrectly and basically just use the 12v jumper (I used yellow because it was handy) in the old single wire configuration but I ready that is a sure fire way to burn out your starter. If anyone can help me understand what I am missing I would appreciate it.

Josh

[Cusefan78]

I'm thinking your problem lies in your key wiring now. You changed the wiring on the starter so your not getting the signal from the key anymore. I could be wrong but you need the 12volt signal when you turn the key to the start position

[chris young]

Hi Josh

I've cut and pasted a post I made on the topic earlier. From what I can see from your 2 photos, it should work as it is currently wired though.


I couldn't let it go so I did some more reading. This explains the whole thing quite well, the point of the remote solenoid is to take the stress off of the key switch. In figure 6, the short green wire with the arrow pointing to it, represents the jumper between the battery contact and the control contact on the starter.

www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf

This guy wires it a bit differently, but it does accomplish the same goal, and all the start current doesn't have to go through the remote relay, it does however loose the protection CJD supposed about though.

http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/solenoid.htm

[Brosh]

I don't know that that is the problem, as the starter now has constant power, the 12v is where the starter cable came out of the solenoid before, so i think, but could be vary wrong, that by turning the key to start that should be providing the 12v jumper cable the power it needs.

[Brosh]

I don't know why but the way the diagrams are made in the first link are making it really hard for me to follow, maybe it is just because it is morning i will look again a bit later after i have had some more caffeine. Near as i can tell though i believe i have it wired the way the second link has it described. I am totally frustrated because it seems like it should engage and instead i only get a single click.

[wotan2525]

You have the remote solenoid and the starter wired correctly. Is it the starter solenoid clicking or the remote solenoid? Can you jump across the two posts on the remote solenoid and get it to spin?

[Brosh]

I was trying to figure this out last night, but i am a bit hard of hearing and didn't have anyone around last night to listen, but i think it is the remote solenoid. I did try to jump the remote solenoid and i didn't get anything.

[wotan2525]

How are you trying to jump it? Just take a rubber/plastic handled screwdriver and put it between the two big posts on your remote solenoid. If nothing happens when you do that, do the same thing on the starter solenoid itself.

[Brosh]

I used a 2Ga wire that i had pulled previously and replaced with 0 Ga. i can try a screwdriver too but i would assume the same result. I will try the starter solenoid tonight if it isn't raining.
When jumping the starter solenoid which terminals should i be jumping?

[wotan2525]

http://i.imgur.com/H2DvgOU.png?1?5743
http://i.imgur.com/I2GKClz.png?1

If neither of those works, you need to get out a test light or multimeter and figure out where is receiving 12v (and when) as you turn the key.

[Brosh]

excellent, looks like no rain tonight so i can take the time and go through this, Thanks!

[Brosh]

OK now I am even more confused. Jumping did nothing I went through and the cable from the battery to the solenoid has 12.65v and 12.2v at the starter itself with the key in the on position. When the key is turned to start the jumper has 12.65v both at the remote solenoid and at the starter. I have confirmed that the single click is happening at the remote solenoid but beyond that nothing happens when I turn the key to start the motor. Previously whenbi had it wired wrong at the solenoid with the battery cable where the jumper is and vice versa the starter engaged like it should however I don't want this wiring configurations as it can cause damage to the teeth in some cases. Anymore thoughts? There has to be something I am missing but I can't for the life of me figure it out.

[ssa]

Just to clarify you have the positive cable from the battery running to a lug on the remote solenoid. Then from that same lug you have a battery cable running to the battery terminal on the starter. Then you have your small yellow jumper wire running from the other remote solenoid lug to the start terminal on the starter? With this wiring setup if you jump the lugs on the remote solenoid nothing happens?

[Cusefan78]

I may not be smart but why are you running two solenoids? Couldn't you just run the positive to the starter then the starter wire from the key to it? Isn't the setup you're running for a starter without a solenoid?

[Brosh]

Just to clarify you have the positive cable from the battery running to a lug on the remote solenoid. Then from that same lug you have a battery cable running to the battery terminal on the starter. Then you have your small yellow jumper wire running from the other remote solenoid lug to the start terminal on the starter? With this wiring setup if you jump the lugs on the remote solenoid nothing happens?

Yes that is how its wired and jumping the lugs does nothing.

[Brosh]

I don't know the exact details off the top of my head but bypassing the solenoid that is already in there can cause the starter to build up a charge somehow (I think that is what i remember reading) and cause it to engage while the engine is running ruining the teeth... Or something like that. I am on my phone so I don't have it in front of me.

[Brosh]

Well, i reached out to db electrical, i am thinking since everything else is right it has to be a bad starter, which is too bad as i have much to do to get the boat in the water and that is a set back... oh well all the lakes around me are no wake anyway because of high water levels...

[chris young]

running two solenoids? Couldn't you just run the positive to the starter then the starter wire from the key to it? Isn't the setup you're running for a starter without a solenoid?

That's what I thought when we were discussing this in the "weird heat soak problem" thread. The problem apparently with that setup is that the solenoid on the starter requires a quality supply of voltage and current to work properly, and that all has to be delivered through the key switch. It is recommended that you permanently jump the start and battery terminals on the starter and supply it from the remote solenoid. These types of starters draw quite a bit of current to pull in the solenoid and engage the starter so the more current capable the supply to the starter both S and Bat terminals the better.

So to be clear the way it should be wired is...

14605

That being said, with the key in run there should be not be 12.2V at the starter. From what I've read so far, it's either a bad connection somewhere or a bad starter. If jumping it as Wotan posted didn't get anything, and you said wiring it differently did get it to go then the starter likely is not bad. I'd say the terminal at the battery is the first place I'd go.

If you want to get all the wiring out of the equation, take a set of jumper cables and connect both the black and red to the +ve on the battery and then connect one to the big terminal on the starter and as soon as you touch the S terminal with the other, it should go. If it doesn't, it can only be one of 3 things, battery is dead, ground is bad on the starter, or the starter is bad.

Good luck

[Brosh]

Why wouldn't i have 12.2 at the starter in the on position? the battery cable and the cable to the starter share the same lug on the remote solenoid and therefor the current would go through by default... the yellow wire that goes to the s terminal on the starter then has 12.6v when i turn the key to start... when i was reading about these starters everything i came up with is that the starter should always have power... if that is incorrect then my wiring must be incorrect too... i was also just thinking that if the starter has 12.2v and when i turn the key the "s" lug has 12.6v then both terminals are getting power and would effectively act the same as being jumped by a screwdriver... both terminals are receiving the power they need and the starter should engage, since it is not wouldn't that mean the starter is likely bad?

The diagram you have (which is how i wired it first, and it worked) looks like it may cause the starter run-on problem explained here
http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=218409

[chris young]

My bad, I'm sorry you are absolutely right. Unless you wire it as I posted above, but either way, it shouldn't be 12.2 if you have 12.6 anywhere else. And key position shouldn't make a difference in this case. The link you posted looks interesting, I was not aware of the difference on these starters, I'll read though it as soon as I get a chance.

[Brosh]

yeah the reason it drops to 12.2v is that i just replaced all my battery cables with new 0 gauge, but have the old 2 ga that was originally on the starter that i am sure is causing a drop in voltage between the remote solenoid and the starter. I just haven't had time to replace that yet on my long list to bring this her back from the dead.

[wotan2525]

Well, i reached out to db electrical, i am thinking since everything else is right it has to be a bad starter, which is too bad as i have much to do to get the boat in the water and that is a set back... oh well all the lakes around me are no wake anyway because of high water levels...

If you have 12v at the starter and you are jumping it to no effect, the starter is toast. Order a new one and db will issue you a refund when you return the old one. Saves waiting for them to receive your old one before they ship out a new one.

[Brosh]

Great idea! thanks for the suggestion!

[chris young]

I read the link you posted, and all the conditions are there for a self latch on the starter solenoid. Interesting though that some of these starters actually ship with a shorting bar. Still, I would have thought that the draw the solenoid put on the free spinning starter would be enough to stop that from happening, but I guess not.

Thanks for the link.

[Brosh]

Well i got the new starter and guess what? Wouldn't start. So i wired it like you said Chris, and sure enough turned right over. I can't for the life of me figure out why though as the starter and the starter solenoid seem to get power as they are supposed to when i had it wired like i took pictures of it, but when i moved the power back to the original remote solenoid post that the starter wire was attached and left the jumper on that to the starter as well, turned right over... Anyway, all is well, time to get the rudder, prop and shaft put back in and get this boat on the water before this weekend.

Thanks for all the help!

[wotan2525]

Well i got the new starter and guess what? Wouldn't start. So i wired it like you said Chris, and sure enough turned right over. I can't for the life of me figure out why though as the starter and the starter solenoid seem to get power as they are supposed to when i had it wired like i took pictures of it, but when i moved the power back to the original remote solenoid post that the starter wire was attached and left the jumper on that to the starter as well, turned right over... Anyway, all is well, time to get the rudder, prop and shaft put back in and get this boat on the water before this weekend.

Thanks for all the help!

Very weird. I don't totally understand why Fords require the remote starter, but you could easily swap that out with a new one. They're cheap and any auto-parts shop will have one.

[Brosh]

I didn't bypass the remote starter, i just moved the starter power back to the original post rather than having it have constant power... not sure at all why this configuration works and the other doesn't since when i turn the key the starter connections all have the same power going to them regardless of which way it is wired, the only difference is the starter engages now.