I almost cried...

[Moor]

Yeasterday it was finally warm enough to pull the cover off and unwinterize the tow rig. As i lifted up the dog house i saw one of the worst sights a boat owner can see. I was an unusually long and cold winter, and my heart sank as i saw a freezout plug lying in the bilge. So i started prepairing for the worst. Let me give you all the back story: last fall i had to move unexpectedly, and the boat winterization got put off until the last minute. You know, the "oh sh*t its going to snow tomorrow, i better winterize after work" kind of last minute. One of the drain plugs on the block, down by the engine pan, was stripped. No way i was getting it out where the boat was. So i filled the cooling system with antifreeze, ran the engine and sucked up a 5 gallon pale of coolant. Fogged it to shut her down, topped off the coolant, pulled the impeller, hoses and finished up the winterization.
so i Ran down to the Local Napa, bought a new freeze out plug and installed it with a just a dab of rtv to make sure it seals good. reconnected all the hoses and plugs and fired it up. It ran for about 5 mins on ym home made fake a lake, and everything seems ok. No milkshake in the oil, no leaks, no immediate overheating, so i THINK im in the clear. I guess i'll know for sure on the first test drive of the season.

On a side note, I notice A LOT of scale and deposits in the cooling jackets of the engine block when the freeze out plug was out. I cleaned as much out as i could, but theres still a ton in the engine. its also building up in the exhaust manifolds. Does anyone know a good way to flush/clean out the cooling system?

[CJD]

Interesting...

The correct term for those plugs are core plugs, as their purpose is to plug the holes used for removing the sand cores after casting. I've had a lot of engines that have frozen, but never had a plug pop out. Normally a freeze cracks the block along the sides on the relatively flat areas below the heads.

A lot of scale inside the block is normal. Remember we are running straight water for cooling...well, most of us anyway...so iron is going to rust. If you clean it out, it only provides more fresh iron to accelerate the corrosion.

[2001Sunsport]

Don't be too confident you are good yet. I had someone who had a core plug pop, replaced it, and thought they were good because it ran find on the hose, but once they got out on the lake and put it under load they got water in the oil.

[Zim]

Well, if you had a plug pop, it did it's job. Yes, they're technically core plugs, but they do also give way first in a freeze. Hopefully nothing froze too much in the water jackets, but the freeze plug could have saved you. If you used RV anti freeze (the pink stuff), it has a freeze point of -50. If it's diluted at all, that drastically decreases. That RV antifreeze turns to slush pretty quickly at around 0*F, and will freeze solid at -50. Any water mixed with it will affect those numbers. It could have become slushy earlier, and frozen over in full in as little as 0*F, but hopefully it didn't stay that consistency for too long.

Keep a watchful eye on that oil... like every hour check it. If it gets chocolate milky, you know what's up. Also look for abnormal amounts of oil in your bilge, or any fresh dripping areas in your bilge as well.

This is why I drain my block. I know your block plug was stripped, but if nothings in there, it can't freeze.

[docdrs]

The only way to get antifreeze into the block by sucking it up is to have an empty block!!!!!!... anything less than 170 degrees will not have the thermostat open enough to let any block water out and any antifreeze in thru the circ pump.......this is why this method should never ever be used!!!!! As above, any dilution of antifreeze will render it ineffective to prevent freezing!!!!!!! I have run the numbers, you are just kidding yourself if you think this works ! Unless you have 100% strength antifreeze and a hygrometer.

[wotan2525]

The only way to get antifreeze into the block by sucking it up is to have an empty block!!!!!!... anything less than 170 degrees will not have the thermostat open enough to let any block water out and any antifreeze in thru the circ pump.......this is why this method should never ever be used!!!!! As above, any dilution of antifreeze will render it ineffective to prevent freezing!!!!!!! I have run the numbers, you are just kidding yourself if you think this works ! Unless you have 100% strength antifreeze and a hygrometer.

I'm not sure you've used enough exclamation points.

I'm also completely fine with you doing whatever makes you happy with your boat. For me? I go the RV antifreeze route.

For me? I remove my thermostat (good excuse to inspect it and test it, anyway.) So my block is full of RV antifreeze. And yes, if it's diluted with fresh water it will be less effective. That's why I try to "flush" out the water with an extra 2-gallons of RV antifreeze.

Now, I understand I may look foolish in a couple of weeks if the boat comes out of storage and I have to eat some crow -- but I've been using this method for 10 years and my father has been using this method for 20 years before that. And we've yet to have a problem.

And we're in a part of the country that sees far colder temperatures than most on here.

My point? Do what makes you happy. But the chances of a catastrophic block failure from using RV anti-freeze the proper way is very low!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zim]

Anti-freeze has its applications. It helps prevent corrosion, but I'd rather have a little corrosion than a busted block. The best way to use antifreeze would be to suck it up without a thermostat in, then drain the block. Then suck up more anti-freeze. That'll get the most water out, so you have the strongest concentration of anti-freeze to water ratio.

[docdrs]

I'm not sure you've used enough exclamation points.

I'm also completely fine with you doing whatever makes you happy with your boat. For me? I go the RV antifreeze route.

For me? I remove my thermostat (good excuse to inspect it and test it, anyway.) So my block is full of RV antifreeze. And yes, if it's diluted with fresh water it will be less effective. That's why I try to "flush" out the water with an extra 2-gallons of RV antifreeze.

Now, I understand I may look foolish in a couple of weeks if the boat comes out of storage and I have to eat some crow -- but I've been using this method for 10 years and my father has been using this method for 20 years before that. And we've yet to have a problem.

And we're in a part of the country that sees far colder temperatures than most on here.

My point? Do what makes you happy. But the chances of a catastrophic block failure from using RV anti-freeze the proper way is very low!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Your right everyone can do what they want. I am just informing people that not draining the block and sucking up -50 plumbing antifreeze does not give adequate protection against -20 degrees. Here it is by the numbers.

Your typical inboard has about 5 gallons in its cooling system( I have personally measured it). When the temperature is 160 degrees the thermostat just starts opening allowing hot water to escape from the engine.( take a tstat and put it in water on a stove with a thermometer and you will see) The rest of the intake fluid will bypass the circulating pump and flow out the exhaust manifolds and mufflers. If you have the CONCENTRATE which is 95% then yes you only need 2 gallons of it fully circulated thru your engine to achieve a 35 % concentration for -50 protection. But that is fully circulated , not just sucked up (and by the way it is pushed into the engine at a low idle flow rpm). If you use the -50 stuff which is 35% then you would need 30 gallons fully circulated to achieve a 32% which would give you -35 protection. A 17.5% solution of propylene glycol will only give you 15 F burst protection......so if you were to use 5 gallons of -50 fully circulated not just sucked up you will have a 15 F protection temperature.

So my question to anyone who insists on your method is why don't you just remove the block drain plugs and drain the block first. Far easier then removing thermostat housing ,reinstalling ," flushing " or whatever your exact procedure is. That's why the engine manufacturers put drain plugs there. Some even have gone so far as to put quick drains on them. Why risk a $10- 15,000 motor for something that is so simple.

[Moor]

Yes, i did use the pink RV coolant. I also removed 3 out of the 4 block drain plugs, so most of the water was drained out of the block. I used a 5 gallon pale to suck up the pink coolant into the engine. i DID NOT remove the thermostat, so maybe i didnt get as much coolant circulating through the block as i thought. I've inspected the intire external surface of the block and see no signs of cracks. I sold an old 454 barfoot nautique to a friend a few years ago, and he froze the block the first winter he had it, so im familiar with where they crack. It was below -0F for almost 2 weeks straight this winter, so with the 1/2A$$'ed winterization my boat got im not suprised it blew a freeze out plug. Its been in the back of my mind all winter. Maybe if i used a regular automotive concentrated coolant i wouldnt have push out a freeze plug, given the lack of circulation/coolant that was in the on part of the block that i could not drain. I'll keep a close eye on it for the first few boat rides and cross my fingers for now.

So i shouldn't be concerned with all the rust/scale inside the coolant passages in the block/exhaust manifolds? My engine has never ran warm, infact it runs on the cool side, so its not effecting the cooling efficiency, but it cant be good for it circulating in the system/pump.

[CJD]

So i shouldn't be concerned with all the rust/scale inside the coolant passages in the block/exhaust manifolds? My engine has never ran warm, infact it runs on the cool side, so its not effecting the cooling efficiency, but it cant be good for it circulating in the system/pump.

Nothing to worry about. The rust scale will work its way through and blow out the exhaust. In time...like a whole lotta time, all our blocks will rust through, but the risers will be the first to go. They see more heat, more air, and more corrosive combustion by-products than the block does. You should go through 2-3 risers before the block goes away. Now, some scale will settle to the bottom of the block cooling passages...and that is a secondary reason for draining the block every season, as it frees any trapped scale.

You do need to schedule some time to replace the stripped plug. Never tighten the plugs past snug, and you'll never have an issue with stripping them in the future. If a plug leaks, use teflon tape to seal it rather than cranking down on it...and really, a small plug leak won't hurt anything anyway.

[Zim]

Rust and scaling is going to happen because you're cooling with raw water. You don't see this much in cars/trucks because of the closed cooling system, and anti-freeze prevents corrosion. It's normal in a boat engine, especially one from 1988. I wouldn't worry much about that.

[Zim]

Your right everyone can do what they want. I am just informing people that not draining the block and sucking up -50 plumbing antifreeze does not give adequate protection against -20 degrees. Here it is by the numbers.

Your typical inboard has about 5 gallons in its cooling system( I have personally measured it). When the temperature is 160 degrees the thermostat just starts opening allowing hot water to escape from the engine.( take a tstat and put it in water on a stove with a thermometer and you will see) The rest of the intake fluid will bypass the circulating pump and flow out the exhaust manifolds and mufflers. If you have the CONCENTRATE which is 95% then yes you only need 2 gallons of it fully circulated thru your engine to achieve a 35 % concentration for -50 protection. But that is fully circulated , not just sucked up (and by the way it is pushed into the engine at a low idle flow rpm). If you use the -50 stuff which is 35% then you would need 30 gallons fully circulated to achieve a 32% which would give you -35 protection. A 17.5% solution of propylene glycol will only give you 15 F burst protection......so if you were to use 5 gallons of -50 fully circulated not just sucked up you will have a 15 F protection temperature.

So my question to anyone who insists on your method is why don't you just remove the block drain plugs and drain the block first. Far easier then removing thermostat housing ,reinstalling ," flushing " or whatever your exact procedure is. That's why the engine manufacturers put drain plugs there. Some even have gone so far as to put quick drains on them. Why risk a $10- 15,000 motor for something that is so simple.

Ding ding ding. Great info doc.

[Moor]

to be honest, that drain plug has been stripped/stuck since i bought the boat 2 years ago. I couldn't get it out the first time i winterized it, and it wasn't an issue that winter so i forgot about it until it was time for the next winterization. I bought it in south carolina, so i assume it was never an issue in that climate. I agree that a little teflon tape and a snug plug that may leak a little is better than i really tight plug that doesn't leak. I'll have to spend a few minutes welding a bolt to the plug, then i should be able to remove/replace it. Thats assuming that my engine survives.

[Moor]

Rust and scaling is going to happen because you're cooling with raw water. You don't see this much in cars/trucks because of the closed cooling system, and anti-freeze prevents corrosion. It's normal in a boat engine, especially one from 1988. I wouldn't worry much about that.

i understand how/why the rust is there, just didnt know if its something i should flush/clean out or if its ok to just leave it alone. If you guys say its ok to leave it be then im ok with that. one less project on my list:) thanks for the info

[cadunkle]

I use the pink -50 and like you drain the block and manifolds first, as well as pull the hose from pump to through hull and drain that, and blow the water out of my heater. Then plugs back in and everything hooked up, run 5 or 6 gals of RV antifreeze through it fed frmo a bucket with a hose in bottom to the trans cooler, then drain everything again and leave plugs out. I wouldn't trust the RV antifreeze just doing a flush without first draining everything, but I've been there freezing my butt off after work on that first real cold night below freezing. Hope you're in the clear!

[Moor]

I use the pink -50 and like you drain the block and manifolds first, as well as pull the hose from pump to through hull and drain that, and blow the water out of my heater. Then plugs back in and everything hooked up, run 5 or 6 gals of RV antifreeze through it fed frmo a bucket with a hose in bottom to the trans cooler, then drain everything again and leave plugs out. I wouldn't trust the RV antifreeze just doing a flush without first draining everything, but I've been there freezing my butt off after work on that first real cold night below freezing. Hope you're in the clear!

I drained everything but the one stripped plug first. Then reinstalled plugs and sucked 5 gallons of pink through the trans cooler hose. I didnt pull the plugs after, or remove the thermostat. i left the pink antifreeze in the engine. I think next time i'll take that extra step and draind the block and manifolds after the antifreeze fill. I'm fairly confident i got lucky, but i'm keeping my fingers crossed until i know for sure

[docdrs]

I drained everything but the one stripped plug first. Then reinstalled plugs and sucked 5 gallons of pink through the trans cooler hose. I didnt pull the plugs after, or remove the thermostat. i left the pink antifreeze in the engine. I think next time i'll take that extra step and draind the block and manifolds after the antifreeze fill. I'm fairly confident i got lucky, but i'm keeping my fingers crossed until i know for sure

The antifreeze you sucked up would have gone primarily into the empty side of the engine, once full the circ pump would then start mixing it with the remaining water on the non drained side ,excess would have been pushed into the exhaust manifolds winter using them, the longer you ran the engine the more evenly mixed the solution in the block would have been . I imagine once the 5 gal was sucked up tho you prob shut the motor off, and there might not have been a lot of mixing. Was it just the stripped drain side that popped or both? I really hope you got lucky btw

[tg0824SSVGG]

And don't forget, regular automobile anti-freeze is TOXIC, you shouldn't be running that into the boat and then putting it into the lake.

[2500HD]

And don't forget, regular automobile anti-freeze is TOXIC, you shouldn't be running that into the boat and then putting it into the lake.

Uh, i'm pretty sure he's running it in his driveway.

[tg0824SSVGG]

2500, sure - because of this issue. But I can't tell you how many folks just put the plugs back in, connect all the hoses
and start it for the first time in the lake.

[2500HD]

I know, the laziness of most people is quite repulsive.

[DAFF]

Hopefully it just gelled up like a slushy creating a increase in volume, pushing out the frost plug. Myself I just drain it all and take the boat for a lap around the block on the trailer.

[Jetlink]

I know, the laziness of most people is quite impressive.

Fixed it for you.

[Zim]

Watching people early in the year just start their boat up for the obvious first time, and seeing a pink or green puddle behind their boat makes me sad. They contaminate so many acres of water with 1 gallon of antifreeze. Even the pink stuff isn't good, but it's much better.

[Moor]

The antifreeze you sucked up would have gone primarily into the empty side of the engine, once full the circ pump would then start mixing it with the remaining water on the non drained side ,excess would have been pushed into the exhaust manifolds winter using them, the longer you ran the engine the more evenly mixed the solution in the block would have been . I imagine once the 5 gal was sucked up tho you prob shut the motor off, and there might not have been a lot of mixing. Was it just the stripped drain side that popped or both? I really hope you got lucky btw

I think this is exactly what happened. The motor wasnt run long enough to properly mix the RV coolant once it was in the engine. The press-in freeze out plug closest to the stripped drain plug that was not removed is the one the popped out. all other drain plugs and freeze out plugs are intact.

[Moor]

And don't forget, regular automobile anti-freeze is TOXIC, you shouldn't be running that into the boat and then putting it into the lake.

Don't worry, I'm not one of "those guys". I was running the boat in my driveway. I like a nice clean lake.

[Moor]

2500, sure - because of this issue. But I can't tell you how many folks just put the plugs back in, connect all the hoses
and start it for the first time in the lake.

When i first got into boating, my buddy used to do this. It drove me nuts. his excuse was "its the hudson river, its already filthy". I still yell at him to this day about it.

[cadunkle]

Most RV antifreeze is primarily alcohol. It will not harm anything dumping it in the water, and is safe (if unpleasant) to drink. You'll know if the antifreeze you used is alcohol because it reeks of alcohol. Most of mine is drained into the bilge (out of the engine) and out of the boat when winterizing, whatever is left is run out on the ground in spring simply because I always run and test the boat on the trailer before taking it to the ramp. I would have no problem running it into the river though and don't believe it would be any different than spilling vodka into the river. I do not use regular automotive antifreeze primarily because I don't want to deal with containing it and disposing of it, and it's more expensive which is pointless when I store the engine dry of any liquid and just the use antifreeze to displace water in low points and help flush my heater core.

[docdrs]

Plumbing antifreeze is 10 -30% alcohol. and usu closer to 10%. the reason why is because you do not want evaporation and loss of effectiveness and decrease in volume in traps and such allowing the ingress of sewer gasses thru the winter months. Compare this to windshield washer fluid which is 40-50% alcohol as that is fine as it typically is used up within and smaller amount of time and in an enclosed system. really not sure why i posted this other than to dispel any preconceived notions.

[leetudor]

The pink marine antifreeze for engines does not contain alcohol.

[cadunkle]

Off a bottle of SuperTech (Walmart) -50 pink RV antifreeze I have in my hand right now...

Ingredients: Ethyl Alcohol, Propylene Glycol, Water, DI Potassium, Colorant, Fragrance

It is in fact primarily alcohol, though presumably with a significant portion of proplylene glycol which is commonly used as a food preservative and a carrying agent used in vaporizers/nebulizers to vaporize and be inhaled to deliver a drug typically for respiratory conditions. Some mixes may have more PG than alcohol or may be purely PG, but every -50 RV antifreeze I've ever bought (several brands) have had alcohol as the primary component. -70 and -100 may be different, I only used -100 once and do not have a bottle handy.

[leetudor]

The antifreeze for use in engines is different, your bottle may say do not use in engines.

http://www.starbrite.com/item/50-non-toxic-premium-anti-freeze-pg?category_id=523

[CJD]

While you guys are discussing winterizing, I'm gonna go take the boat out...our lake is up 3-1/2 feet overnight. Surf's up!

[jasun]

Now that I know all of the science behind antifreeze, I am still waiting to hear the results from the original post.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[docdrs]

Off a bottle of SuperTech (Walmart) -50 pink RV antifreeze I have in my hand right now...

Ingredients: Ethyl Alcohol, Propylene Glycol, Water, DI Potassium, Colorant, Fragrance

It is in fact primarily alcohol, though presumably with a significant portion of proplylene glycol which is commonly used as a food preservative and a carrying agent used in vaporizers/nebulizers to vaporize and be inhaled to deliver a drug typically for respiratory conditions. Some mixes may have more PG than alcohol or may be purely PG, but every -50 RV antifreeze I've ever bought (several brands) have had alcohol as the primary component. -70 and -100 may be different, I only used -100 once and do not have a bottle handy.


Note , while many of the pg antifreeze do have alcohol , some do not as with the starbrite......both of you are right

and yes. Did you get lucky?

[wotan2525]

How about this -- was at the marina this week and asked their mechanic his winterization procedure. They do not drain the blocks. They pump the engines full with RV antifreeze after removing the thermostat. He found it laughable that there was even a debate but did concede that if you're doing one boat you can take your time and do it any way you like. When they are doing thousands of boats, he will save time anywhere he can and said that he's never heard of a professional doing things any differently.

[docdrs]

How about this -- was at the marina this week and asked their mechanic his winterization procedure. They do not drain the blocks. They pump the engines full with RV antifreeze after removing the thermostat. He found it laughable that there was even a debate but did concede that if you're doing one boat you can take your time and do it any way you like. When they are doing thousands of boats, he will save time anywhere he can and said that he's never heard of a professional doing things any differently.

Thats interesting....... Remove thermostat cover, remove thermostat, reinstall cover, suck up antifreeze (95% PG ! I hope), remove thermostat cover, reinstall thermostat, reinstall cover...............vs remove drain plugs drain engine,install drain plugs and suck up antifreeze........which do you think is faster and more effective? Take that back to that mechanic. I find it laughable ( but really something else) that anyone would remove the thermostat and hence undo and reinstall the cover bolts 4x to do this, plus a new gasket.

I do love a good debate.

[tg0824SSVGG]

Doc, I agree - but wonder. They don't have to bend down and reach under the engine to do the "thermostat dance" - I could imagine that doing hundreds (thousands, really?) trying to contort yourself to get to all the drains might be a touch hard on the body, and to them - replacing the gaskets, etc. might just actually be "easier"?

Not for a single boat, I wouldn't think - and I will continue to drain my block, then pump RV antifreeze thru the heater and the shower that I added.

But then again, this is an odd conversation to have in the spring. Water still too cold here to get the boat out just yet, but some are luckier?

[docdrs]

Doc, I agree - but wonder. They don't have to bend down and reach under the engine to do the "thermostat dance" - I could imagine that doing hundreds (thousands, really?) trying to contort yourself to get to all the drains might be a touch hard on the body, and to them - replacing the gaskets, etc. might just actually be "easier"?

Not for a single boat, I wouldn't think - and I will continue to drain my block, then pump RV antifreeze thru the heater and the shower that I added.

But then again, this is an odd conversation to have in the spring. Water still too cold here to get the boat out just yet, but some are luckier?

Ive taken out my thermostat before and on my boat its way easier to do the drain plugs. But I do, guess i can see your reasoning for the t stat , but i still have a problem with the dilution and mixing factor of not draining the block. Btw. , great coin " thermostat dance". Thats beautiful

yes but up here there is still ice on the lakes, .....lucky those who are already boating

[Jetlink]

They don't have to bend down and reach under the engine to do the "thermostat dance" - I could imagine that doing hundreds (thousands, really?)

Where Wotan boats, I believe him when the marina says thousands of boats, never mind the fact that many of the boats there are multi-engine boats as well.

[Moor]

Now that I know all of the science behind antifreeze, I am still waiting to hear the results from the original post.


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Its been pretty cold where i am, so the boat has been on the back burner for the last 2 weeks. Been cleaning out all of the prior owners fathers belongings out of my new lake house, and cleaning up 20 years worth of grounds keeping neglect. So far i've cleaned out about 2 tons (literally) of acorns and 8 truck loads of leaves and debris. My neighbor put his boat in yesterday and we went out for a little ride, so i'm thinking this weekend i'll have an answer for everyone the status of my engine.

[Moor]

The boat went in the water yesterday since it was 78 and sunny, with zero problems. Ran her for about an hour, no leaks, no milkshake, no hiccups. It runs just as good as when i put it away last winter. :cool:

[Zim]

Glad to hear it. Fix that plug this year though!

[Moor]

Glad to hear it. Fix that plug this year though!

thats getting addressed very soon. I don't want to go thought that again!