So what do you all think about the news

[UKandH]

A couple of weeks ago it was announced that supreme and Centurion boats have been bought out by Correct Craft who now own controlling shares in these businesses.

I am personally not sure if its a good thing or bad, it was agreed that the 3 businesses would still build in their own respective factories etc etc. I hope this does not mean Centurion will compromise their hull designs the same way as Correct Craft have, the new Ski Nautique is no where near as good as the mid 90's wakes for slalom skiing, this is why Centurion have really made an impact on the skiing world with their Carbon Pro ski boats.

On the positive side, the combined purchase power for engines and transmissions should mean a price reduction of some sort and a harmonizing of parts and spares, which should equate to cheaper parts in the future.

[wotan2525]

This is the first I've heard of this and google isn't coming up with any "announcements." Do you have a source?

[cjtpilot]

http://www.ballofspray.com/35-ballofspray-water-ski-news/2371-centurion-boats-and-supreme-boats-join-the-correct-craft-family

Message from Rick Lee at Centurion
http://cd8ba0b44a15c10065fd-24461f391e20b7336331d5789078af53.r23.cf1.rackcdn.c om/ballofspray.vanillaforums.com/userpics/784/n4Q8MX2SC0HYF.jpg (http://forum.ballofspray.com/profile/1/Horton)Horton (http://forum.ballofspray.com/profile/1/Horton) Posts: 17,434 Administrator
June 13 (http://forum.ballofspray.com/discussion/13309/message-from-rick-lee-at-centurion) edited June 13 in Boat Talk (http://forum.ballofspray.com/categories/boat-talk) Flag (http://forum.ballofspray.com/discussion/flag/discussion/13309/1/horton/L2Rpc2N1c3Npb24vMTMzMDkvbWVzc2FnZS1mcm9tLXJpY2stbG VlLWF0LWNlbnR1cmlvbg--)

Greetings valued, passionate Carbon Pro skiers

This strategic Alliance consists of us selling a majority interest to CCHC. All current owners remain in place and engaged in similar capacities with ownership percentages. They are Les Clark, Todd Gaughan, Bryan, Holland, Erin McIlhatton, Clark Bird, and myself.

There are no plans to move anything from our current location. There is a 15 year lease in place with two 5 year extensions. Our current employees and management remain.

We are all excited about joining such a prestigious family of companies. We are full steam ahead with all current plans and strategies with new energy and a higher horizon than ever.

Thank you for all of your hard work, energy and support for our "no compromise" competition ski boat.

Thanks
Rick Lee


Men and Women of Team Carbon Pro,

I am sure most have already seen the press release announcing CORRECT CRAFT’s Acquisition of Centurion Boats and Supreme Boats (Fineline Industries). The way the press release is presented makes it a bit confusing. Nautique has not purchased Centurion.

To be accurate. CCHC is Correct Craft Holding Co. The sole owner is a guy who comes from US steel money and lives in Indiana. He has purchased Nautique Boats, PCM, Bass-Cat, Yar-Craft, and Aktion cable parks. He has now also acquired Fineline Ind. So Nautique Boats, Centurion Boats ,Supreme Boats and the rest are now sister companies owned by same parent company.

This acquisition legitimizes Fineline as a leader in the towed watersports segment. The world-wide retail network this deal provides will help both Centurion Boats and Supreme Boats grow exponentially. The deal will also give Fineline improved manufacturing buying power and delivers all Fineline employees significant improvements on many levels. Rick Lee, all employees and all management stay in place. I personally am excited about this acquisition and think the future of the Carbon Pro program is even brighter after this deal.

Please feel free to contact me directly if there are additional questions regarding any of this.

Paul Crawford
National Promo Coordinator
CENTURION BOATS
[email protected]

[DKJBama92Mariah]

Not really surprising. We have lost A LOT of boat builders to bankruptcy and takeovers since the financial crisis of 08-09 (not just talking about ski and wakeboats here). I think most of it was the rise in materials costs. The resin that's used to make our fiberglass boats is a petroleum product. When oil prices went up, so did builders' cost of materials which drove boat prices higher and higher. When the cost of a 21' boat jumped to $60k-$80k instead of $30k-$45k, the number of willing buyers understandably shrunk. On top of that, with the financial uncertainty, people were less likely to make big-ticket luxury purchases. We should consider ourselves lucky we haven't lost any more inboard boat builders.

[SquamInboards]

I think it's good for Supreme / Centurion, to give them a little more stability in the industry. They really are good value, but I can never quite get over the flimsy feel of Supremes. I've driven a fairly new supreme back-to-back with a similar-age Nautique, and the difference is obvious. Like the difference between a base model Civic and a BMW. Both are good, in their own ways, but one is so much nicer, smoother, and just feels better put together. I remember a brand-new supreme we had at the marina a few years ago that was a good boat and all, but it vibrated at idle like no other inboard I've seen. My '89 supra doesn't do that. My '89 supra has a freaking cupholder in the bow storage area.

Anyway, the Carbon Pro is a cool thing, and it seems to have a real following. It's genuinely a no-compromise proper SKI boat, for those who really want only that. I think it took a lot of balls to build that boat, but they proved that there is a market! Supra should pay attention. Hell, they could release an updated comp (again) and sell it. Use the old hull mold, some carbon fiber, and put a new cap on it!

[michael hunter]

Im not sure about what you said about CC compromising their hull design . The 200 has one of the best 3 event wakes available and has broken nearly all records in competition. The hull design is so good Mastercraft nearly copied it for the new Pro star. Correct Craft is a very well run company I see nothing but improvement for Centurion and Supreme.

[UKandH]

Thats interesting as i have recently ski'd behind a Carbon Pro and a 200, When you look underneath the boat the hull design on the 200 has a few *interesting* compromise scallops to create what i see as corrections in basic design.
The Carbon Pro has no such compromises, it has a completely clean hull. I much prefer the wake of the CP over the Correct craft. When we talk about 3 event boats dominating tournaments, its actually about finance agreements and *give aways* or what is commonly called sponsorship. Its a dirty industry with a lot of back handers. I have been involved with running and driving tournaments here in the UK and i know first hand how its run.

The other *issue* i have is the price of justifying the Nautique Vs the Centurion, Base price of $75 K for the basic Nautique and $55 for the Centurion, which incidentally has better standard equipment.

Its a matter of perspective, when you say *one of the best wakes in 3 eventing* the other top boat there is the Centurion CP, competing for the title.
I prefer to run with the under dog as i have actually had the experience of both boats to drive and to ski behind, and the CP has a slightly softer wake for Slalom and jump, the CC has a better table top for trick....which is my favourite discipline of all the 3 events. It would therefore be logical for me to pick the Correct Craft and yet im considering the Centurion as my next boat. Value for money, quality of build, reliability all factor in to the decision and the difference in quality is Zero, reliability is the same, yet value for money is unarguable.
As an automotive designer we are constantly driven to improve design vs cost, and yet here at Jaguar Land Rover, quality has a bearing as does perceived quality. Perception is everything, reality is nothing! This is the same with water craft. The old school boys still have the edge because of bias and *perceived* quality and design.
Remember back when Supra entered the market with the Supra Comp TS6M? they were lambasted and ridiculed by the owners of Master Craft and Nautique owners, but when you drove one and actually got to ski behind one, its then that the proof is there for your own bias to be corrected. I drove a TS in competitions here in the UK in the late 80's / early 90's and fell in love with it as a tournament driver and skiier. I couldnt afford to buy one back then :( but it made me think about the established manufacturers vs the new kids on the block and it made me see the truth of the lie's. I owned a Nautique 2001 and absolutely loved it, and yet my heart was won by another boat and manufacturer.

The same has happened with Centurion. Its the same all over again :)

[michael hunter]

The Centurion Carbon Pro is a great boat I have heard a lot of good things about it . Still it is not in the same class as Nautique and Mastercraft. As with Jaguar the cost is a reflection of the quality of the materials used and the strength of the market they hold. The Compromise Scallops were not put in the hull as a correction to a defective hull design . They were actually engineered into the hull to give a better wake you will also see similar scallops on the new Mastercraft Prostar. The term Best can only be used if you include best for who. The best boat or car for you may not be the best for me . Go with the one you like I don't think you can make a bad choice . I would like to check out a Carbon Pro someday just like the Malibu,Nautique and Mastercraft I am pretty sure I will love it.

[UKandH]

As a design engineer i respectfully disagree :) so lets leave it at that :)

[michael hunter]

What do you disagree with I though I was very complementary to Centurion?

[Cusefan78]

That cp has a way better fit and finish then cc. Everyone on ball of spray drools over them. I think it's a good thing for both companies.

[michael hunter]

I agree with it being good for both companies. If the wake,build and fit and finish is better or even close to the Nautique I would love to see one someday. There is one dealer 1.5 hours away from me. I stopped by once when I attended the PWT very small dealer the didn't have a Carbon Pro . Never seen one at the Atlanta boat show either.
If the CP is really that good they are doing a great job of hiding it?

[UKandH]

Remember my comment about perception :D

And yes, they are THAT GOOD, but its like beating your head against a stone wall. Everyone and their dog yawp on about Nautique and Master Craft...they are the best blah blah. Its all about perception and not the reality. CC and MC are established names that is all imho.

Anyway i just hope that the guys at Centurion are allowed to continue to challenge the perception of the 2 dominating companies, to innovate and strive forward with new and modern manufacturing techniques, new clean hull designs and gain more of the market share with the freedom to do so without restraint from the parent company. It is competition that drives technology and innovation forward.

[UKandH]

Sorry Michael, i didnt see your reply.

My disagreement is when you say CC and MC are better quality / class and built with better materials.

A clean hydrodynamic design should not need complex hull shapes, in fact quite the opposite (i studied Hydrodynamics and CFD *Computational Fluid Dynamics* at Uni) so i have a bit of an engineering insight into this subject.
All the complex shapes generate unwanted drag and vortices, yes they are there to improve the wake but each modification has a severe side effect elsewhere in the design, usually at certain speeds and handling. The best design is clean and unobstructed (look at the Supra hull for an example) clean and hydrodynamicly efficient. I have spoken to quite a few yacht designers at Fairline and Sunseeker about this, OK they are big 70' + motor yachts but the principals are the same. Clean efficient hulls win every time.
As for materials, how much further can you go than where Centurion are with the CP? A full Carbon Kevlar weave autoclaved and pre preg materials? Some panels are pressure heated stamped parts (this process give far superior weight vs strength than autoclave) and is at the very pinnacle of carbon technology. The company i worked for last year was the developer and owner of the process patent, its used in Space travel, Submarines, Aircraft, hyper cars and Centurion boats :D

Engines and transmissions are the same as MC and CC, so no difference there.

I personally and professionally think the CP is the best out there, its reputation is growing exponentially and that is one big reason for the buy out (imho). Centurion have invested heavily in the manufacturing process and unique knowledge required to for carbon fiber composited manufacturing, where as CC havent. It makes more business sense to acquire than develop from scratch. I also personally think CC were very concerned about the new kids on the block (Centurion) What they leaned with the Carbon Pro is filtering down to the bigger wakeboard boats.
Things are afoot in the boating world in towed watersports and pleasure craft in the EU and eventually the USA with emissions regulations, the use of Euro 6 compliant engines etc. The efficiency is not just about engines, its about weight....hence Centurions position and extensive use of high tech materials to create the strength and lower weight require to meet future regulations.

I think of the analogy of sports cars, the established manufacturers of high value cars like Ferrari, then you have cars like Zonda, Koenigsegg, Aston Martin, McLaren, Ultima etc. Everyone drools and says the Ferrari is the worlds leader, where as in fact they are not...its marketing, history and perception that dictate this. Innovation and improvement are driven by the little guys snapping at the heals of the established manufacturers.

Ok i have ranted on enough :)

Peace out people.

Andy

[michael hunter]

UK I can see you are hooked on the CP . I have never seen one, there is no dealer close to me that has one, I never see them at any boat shows. All of my knowledge about the CP is hearsay . The reason the big three are at the top isn't just because of perception they are also at the upper end of quality and performance. You stated that the complex shapes on the 200 are there to improve the wake . Well thats just it they do improve the wake, yes maybe at the cost of performance in other areas but it is a ski boat not a cruiser or race boat . You wouldn't buy a Dragster to drive every day? People that buy a competition ski boats want a perfect ski wake. It took years of R&D to develop the 200 they set out to build the best ski boat in the world. Based upon the numerous records it set and the the fact that MC is almost copying the design on the new Pro Star I think they have done it. Thats not to say anything bad about the CP. I would love to see and drive one someday. Maybe with the backing of CC they can expand their dealer network and start promoting them.

[UKandH]

I cant say im hooked on the CP but i have driven and ski'd behind all 3 boats, im no pro skier nor do i drive professionally any more but i do like value for money and quality and i have issues with perceptive opinionated people (not saying your one of them)
I like people who actually challenge the norm and the opinions of others, cars and boats are one of my pet hates where this is concerned. People who take the time and grab the chance to try new products and in particular new manufacturers.
How many people support Manchester United and have never been to the football ground, how many MotoGP followers support Valentino Rossi but cannot name any other rider, how many people think Ferrari are the ultimate sports car, and how many buy a CC or MC thinking it is the boat for them because they know no different?

:D

[michael hunter]

It took me 2 years and over 1500 miles to buy a new boat in 2008, perception had nothing to do with my choice. I looked at every brand within 300 miles unfortunately Centurion was not one of them. They didn't have any dealers near me then either. The boat I bought was not the boat I thought I would buy. After carefully checking and demoing the list narrowed down to Mastercraft and Nautique not because of perception . The final decision was made during the test drive/ride the Nautique 210 SANTE simply out performed the others .

''How many people support Manchester United and have never been to the football ground, how many MotoGP followers support Valentino Rossi but cannot name any other rider, how many people think Ferrari are the ultimate sports car, and how many buy a CC or MC thinking it is the boat for them because they know no different?''

Your statement above is probably true for most boat buyers they buy what their friends like or its the new hot thing instead of what is truly best for them . Just like with My 89 Sunsport I buy for keeps not just the new flavor of the day . You seem to think that MC and Nautique got to the top by some clever ad campaign or celebrity promotion its true that will sell boats in the short run. But if the product doesn't Live up to the hype it wont hold its value .
MC or Nautique remain at the top because they produce top notch products that out perform the competition and hold their value longer . Sure they cost more what high end product dosn't?
It is very rare to find a product that is built and performs better and still costs 25% less . Maybe the CP is that product ?

Getting back to the original topic of this thread I think CC buying Centurian will be great for both companies . If CC adds the Centurion line up to there dealer network who knows maybe I can finally see a CP for myself.

[UKandH]

Centurions dealer network has always been the issue here in the UK as well. As it happens i bought my Supra from the only Centurion dealer here as he took it in PX for a Carbon Pro.
Im happy as larry with my Supra, but i do want a CP in the future, in fact im looking at buying a 2014 boat this December when it returns from Spain late this season. However i am still weighing up the choice of *how much better is a newer boat* than the Supra TS6M for slalom, trick and jump? Is it indeed $20K better, or is it just the desire to own a newer and fresher boat than the Supra?
I have also been offered a decent 200 SN as well which comes up for sale at the same time. I guess it all comes down to justifying the extra money investment over the use profile :)

[michael hunter]

Well we have come to a common ground . I would love to have a 200 and at the last boat show the new Pro Star really caught my eye . But the reality is they are competition ski boats that are great for slalom runs in the morning but not so great when it gets rough in the afternoon. A new 200 or pro star will cost 65 to 80 k its hard to justify for a few slalom runs. The wake on my 92 comp although not as good is just fine at under 5k.

[UKandH]

The CP im looking at in December is an early 2014 boat but has 1300 hrs on itn (a ski school boat), but its £15K and not £50K, the 200 is going to be between £37-42K :O

[michael hunter]

That will be a good test for the CP the ski schools here are brutal on boats.

[UKandH]

This is one of 5 they own, they are on their 4th generation of Centurion boats as they change them every 1.5 to 2 years. They use MC and CC too, but mostly Centurion.