Drive shaft seal failure . lasdrop bellow

[lively]

You heard it right . Was on the water for about an hour and started to pull the tube around . When the boat seemed sluggesh and weighted . I kicked the bilge on and had water .

So I opened the motor hood and bam ! There was water rushing in !

I had everyone sit on the bow to plain out and headed for the dock . Stopped and got trailered , it took 20min to drain with everything open and bilge pumps on ! .

So now that I have almost sunk the boat , what would be the best shaft seal for these 1" shafts . And what do I need to measure to order or price the new set up . ?


Also I've seen some with a hose connected to it . What is that all about ?

[Jetlink]

You heard it right . Was on the water for about an hour and started to pull the tube around . When the boat seemed sluggesh and weighted . I kicked the bilge on and had water .

So I opened the motor hood and bam ! There was water rushing in !

I had everyone sit on the bow to plain out and headed for the dock . Stopped and got trailered , it took 20min to drain with everything open and bilge pumps on ! .

So now that I have almost sunk the boat , what would be the best shaft seal for these 1" shafts . And what do I need to measure to order or price the new set up . ?


Also I've seen some with a hose connected to it . What is that all about ?

That one with a hose attached to it is probably a dripless shaft seal. If you are at that point in time, I would just go that route.

This is what I bought for mine.

http://www.skidim.com/PSS-SHAFT-SEAL-1/productinfo/PY1HG10X17/

[Wulphie]

P.S.S. Packless is the way to go. You need to measure the prop shaft and the log to know what size to order. The hose is connected to cool and lubricate the interface between the stainless steel piece that pre-loads and the seal that attaches to the log.

When you replace it pays to not only align the coupler but the prop shaft in the log as well. If the shaft is not centered the stainless piece will not meet the log seal squarely and can cause premature wear to the log seal.

[lively]

I've posted some pics to see what I have , the issue is that I'm out of adjustment for side to side on the engine and Trans to center up the shaft . . I'm gonna have to look at adjusting These mounts to get it in line when the 16520165221652716528PSS comes in . It looks like the shaft sealing "ring" on mine locked against the stainless coupler and the just turned the bellow open . I had to take a flat head to walk the two apart . I'll have to look at that shaft some more to make sure it's sound .

[Wulphie]

I had a similar seal setup on my Pirata. Mine wore out the face of the seal from poor shaft to log alignment. Face of the seal probably had a 5 degree bevel on it from top to bottom.

[lively]

My issue is now I need to correct shaft to shaft log alignment and I don't have enough side to side to correct it . So do yall know the best way going about it ? Cause I made a aluminum spacer for the left Trans mount looking at the engine to have the mount grab due to the alignment being off . Maybe have to free it back up and look what's the best route . . Are there different engine mounts that allow more movement ? Or are these pretty much standard ?

[Jetlink]

My issue is now I need to correct shaft to shaft log alignment and I don't have enough side to side to correct it . So do yall know the best way going about it ? Cause I made a aluminum spacer for the left Trans mount looking at the engine to have the mount grab due to the alignment being off . Maybe have to free it back up and look what's the best route . . Are there different engine mounts that allow more movement ? Or are these pretty much standard ?

Huh? Post a pic of this spacer please?

[lively]

1653416535165361653716538

[lively]

16539165401654116542

[lively]

Huh? Post a pic of this spacer please?

It was steel , which I know is not sea worthy . With all this being said , im leaning toward the shaft being misaligned with the shaft log was the culprit . But now to correct it . I planned on pulling the engine in a month for a rebuild seeing I have low oil pressure . But the issue I have is hopefully you can see the mounts and how they are shifted to one side . It seems that almost my stringers were off center or something . I really don't remember a lot from 5 yrs ago . But I'm determined to fix it before the new power plant gets reinstalled

[Jetlink]

So, do all four engine mounts have a spacer, one side, or just one of them? I guess I got lucky when I did mine because my transmission output flange and the prop shaft flange matched up perfectly after all that work.

[lively]

So, do all four engine mounts have a spacer, one side, or just one of them? I guess I got lucky when I did mine because my transmission output flange and the prop shaft flange matched up perfectly after all that work.

yeah i noticed that you left a little of the stringer material or the "bilge lip " looked like a great idea , when i did mine i did one side at a time and ground it all out , but i only have one spacer on that one mount due to the trans body is farther away from the inner stringer than the engine block ...lol if that makes sense ,

what i think will help is mounting new mounts on top of the stringer and that would move the drive line over 1/4" which is all i need to be shaft to shaft log plum .

[lively]

Something like this 16543

[Wulphie]

I am surprised that even with the extreme engine/trans adjustment that the shaft/log are still that far out of alignment.

When I re-powered my Pirata I went with a Mercruiser engine. It uses different mounts than the PCM. I will try to get you pictures of the trans mounts with measurements so you can see if that style mount will help your situation.

[lively]

That's what I don't get . The stringers look center to me . And maybe I've just adjusted it wrong . Idk . Just gonna step back and look at it for a day or two

[Wulphie]

What may have happened is that you aligned the coupler correctly but with the shaft seal installed on the log. That way you never noticed that the shaft was not aligned in the log. Your strut may be a little out of wack causing the miss alignment in the log.

The first time I set mine up that was basically what I did. In my case I did not factor in the weight of the coupler causing the prop shaft to "sag" in the log. I noticed this when I removed the leaky seal and replaced with the pss. I paid close attention to centering the prop shaft the best I could while making sure the shaft was not binding in the cutlass bearing.

I hope this makes sense and helps you out

[chris young]

I just tried to re align mine in the spring. I loosened the strut and moved it as much as it would go without making the mounting holes any bigger, and it made a bit of difference, so there's a bit of wiggle room there

[lively]

i got what your saying .. hey have yall ever tried the flex couplings ? do they work for small mis alignment ? i mean i know mine is a 1/8-1/4" from being center .. i was looking at them last night cause we use them on our elevator motors when we align them .

also getting the coupler off to service the seal ? just the set screws and pull it off with allthread ?

[lively]

1654416545165461654716548


Ok a few questions :

1. Are these couplers supposed to be press fit onto shaft ?
2. The shaft has a small lip from the seal heating up and failing , should I take it it get machined or buy a new shaft and coupler ?
3. Before I stabbed the engine 5 yrs ago I pulled the coupler and shaft together to replace the bellow . But when I removed the set screws the coupler slipped right off and there are two set screw divets in the shaft where the set screws landed . Is that ok ? Does it create a stress point ?
4. Is the prop shaft centered with the rudder or off to the right ? Cause mines off to the right a bit . And when I tried to budge the prop shaft to meet shaft to shaft log true I felt tension and seems I'll have to move strut a bit .

Thanks for the help gents !

[Jetlink]

That's what I don't get . The stringers look center to me . And maybe I've just adjusted it wrong . Idk . Just gonna step back and look at it for a day or two

Yeah, take a step back and just look at what you did...

Kidding, I admired your work when you did your resto.

As for your question about the shaft, not sure mine will be of much help but here is a pick of the end of my shaft and coupler when I pulled the engine.
16549
If you look closely, there is a nut down in the center of the coupler that is threaded on the shaft. There are also two set screws which are probably in the same location as your coupler. From what I can gather is that I have a slightly beefed up coupler and shaft compared to a few boats on here like Rob's Salt which seems to have an affinity for slipping the shaft from the coupler.:p

[chris young]

It is highly recommended that you replace the coupler whenever you pull it off the shaft, as it should be press fit on to the shaft, and once you pull it off it'll slip back on. I wrestled with spending the extra 120 bucks when I pulled mine but ultimately felt that it was needed. I bought a split coupler to replace the original, and in theory I should be able to put that one back on if I pull it. For sure your shaft should not align with the rudder, that way you can pull the shaft without pulling the rudder.

I pulled mine last year, and did as much as I could think of before putting it back in the boat. Replaced the strut bushings, checked the shaft for runout and penetrant checked it for cracks. Lap fit the prop (much easier to while it's out of the boat) and replaced the shaft log and packing.

[lively]

http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/basket.aspx check this out , whats this noise about fitting and facing the coupler to the tail of the shaft ? ill have to pull it back off to put it in the boat

[Jetlink]

http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/basket.aspx check this out , whats this noise about fitting and facing the coupler to the tail of the shaft ? ill have to pull it back off to put it in the boat

An empty shopping cart. Did your boat retail therapy get denied?

[chris young]

I'm guessing that that's not an issue if you want to fit and face it. (The link doesn't show correctly as Jetlink pointed out but I can kind of guess) I'm not an expert, but from what I understand it's not the act of putting the coupler on the shaft that will require a new one, it's running the coupler on the shaft for a time. I can't see that fitting and removing a coupler will make it loose on the shaft, which is why we normally replace the coupler when it's removed. ie, if it's not a tight fit, then it needs to be replaced.

[lively]

SHAFT A-19 part for shaft

50MC004100 part for coupling

02100134 part for shaft seal


http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/basket.aspx

insert the part number and yall tell me what you think .. its like 556.00 shipped for all 3 .. which is a good deal for sure

[lively]

ok guys i need some advise , I plan to purchase a new shaft , new coupling , new Shaft seal (pss i believe) , and a acme 541 13x12 .. do i need to replace the cutlass bearings too ? i attached a picture to show what i have .. it is not all one piece like the ones i see on the .net .... is there difference with having two piece cutlass than one ? 16622

[CJD]

It looks like one piece to me.

[lively]

It has (2) 3" pieces . Maybe PO cut a 6" ?

[Salty87]

From what I can remember, lol, mine were cut like that, too. Those bearings look worn. Might as well put new in while you're at it.

Before you buy, you might give Nettles prop shop in Austin a call. They really know their stuff and are very competitive on price...even Acme props.

[SquamInboards]

I agree on putting in new cutlass bearings while you're already doing all the rest of this work. If you aren't concerned about adding the cost I'd do it no question.

Back to the original failure - that looks like a dripless shaft seal, but without the hose. Am I crazy? Maybe that's why it failed in the first place? Or is the hose just not visible because it ripped off?

[Salty87]

Not sure if it's factory but my dripless has no hose. It's a PSS from at least 1998 when I got it. No idea why hoses are needed now if they weren't then.

PSS has been good to work with. I had to replace the rubber boot once. They helped me find the right part instead of having to replace all of it.

[lively]

That's good to know salt , look at the part number and website can you confirm that looks like a pss seal ,?

[CJD]

It has (2) 3" pieces . Maybe PO cut a 6" ?


Aaah... Not obvious in the pick. It's 2 bearings...rather than one bearing in 2 pieces.

[Salty87]

That's good to know salt , look at the part number and website can you confirm that looks like a pss seal ,?

It looks like it to me. Not sure what the Lasdrop sticker is. PSS parts here- http://www.shaftseal.com/en/categories

I doubt I have the part number and won't be at my boat for a while.

I'm surprised the bellow doesn't just bend to one side to accommodate shaft out of alignment. Since the bellow is secured to the shaft log with hose clamps it's possible for that to shift also. PSS site says to overhaul some of the parts every 6 years. Makes sense but I haven't.

[SquamInboards]

Not sure if it's factory but my dripless has no hose. It's a PSS from at least 1998 when I got it. No idea why hoses are needed now if they weren't then.



Interesting, maybe they just found it to be more reliable/longer lasting with the hose connection. I read something a while ago about stuffing boxes, and part of the reason for a drip was that you don't want air trapped in the stuffing box area below the boat. This may be much more applicable to salt water, and/or bigger cruisers that don't go up on plane and back down frequently (if at all) like a ski boat.

I'll try to find the source... edit: here it is. (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box&page=2), page 2 under the heading 'Why It Should Drip Some.'

Thoughts?

[lively]

that why mine failed i think , if you back up in the thread , miss alignment for sure had play in the culprit but ive been running it like that for 4 yrs and i think with a water cooled it probably would have lasted longer ..

[chris young]

I didn't read the original thread but I have personal experience with this. With a traditional packing you need it to drip to be sure there is a bit of water between the packing and the shaft. If you over tighten, the packing will overheat, and it will wear the shaft. It is an interesting point though, if you're up on plane, there probably not a lot of water getting to the packing, drip or no drip hmmm.

[Salty87]

Interesting, maybe they just found it to be more reliable/longer lasting with the hose connection. I read something a while ago about stuffing boxes, and part of the reason for a drip was that you don't want air trapped in the stuffing box area below the boat. This may be much more applicable to salt water, and/or bigger cruisers that don't go up on plane and back down frequently (if at all) like a ski boat.

I'll try to find the source... edit: here it is. (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box&page=2), page 2 under the heading 'Why It Should Drip Some.'

Thoughts?

Interesting, it specifically says even PSS has now added a water line.

I'm sure it affects cruisers who will motor for hours more than it does us. I've never noticed any heating but haven't checked for it before. Thanks for the link.