Clacking/tapping noise due to blown head gasket

[roosm]

Hi,

I have a Supra Launch 22 SSV with a 2002 Indmar Marine small block, 350 / 5.7 litre engine. Block-wise the same as a mercruiser.
The engine is a TBI (throttle body injection), is salt water cooled and has about 800 hours on it (first 400 in sea water though).

This saturday I was out wakeboarding and while I was behind the boat after I will down the first/second time and we were getting on plane again my girlfriend pulled off the gas. I heard a strange noise and she obviously did as well.
I got in the boat and there were no strange noise at idle. Put it in gear and everything was fine until we tried getting on plane. Then the clacking / tapping noise began. It seem to follow engine RPM, though we quickly got off the gas. In neutral we can rev her up to 4000 rpm without any strange noise.

I checked my oils on both the v-drive and ZF hurth tranny, and they seemed fine. Might have been on the low side, but still, in the range.
I checked the engine oil which was also a bit on the low side but still on the good side of "minimum". I added some oils to top them off closer to the "max" mark. I tried again, no change. (Thought this might be relevant further on).

I went online and found thread about a guy having a TBI 350 and what sounded like the same issue. An other one chimed in on his thread that had the same issue. Turned out both of them had a blown head gasket between two cylinders and the clacking was believed to be pressure releasing from one cylinder into the other causing the valve to smack open. Both of them changed the head gasket and the result was that the engine was fine afterwards.

I, of course, went down to the boat yesterday with my compression gauge and meassured compression on all cylinders. I removed all spark plugs at once, disconnected the ignition coil and wired an accessory switch to be able to run the starter engine without the ignition on.
I am a little unsure about the cylinder numbers, but since I have a v-drive and the engine is put in backwards I guess the starboard-stern one should be number 1?

In that case I had between 195 and 210 in compression on all cylinders, except 4 and 6 that read 0!!
Yes, zero.

In the other guys threads they seemed to read about 100, but it was unclear if they had in fact removed the number 4 spark plug when measuring compression on number 6.


My conclusion is a blown head gasket between cylinders number 4 and 6.
Repair seems straight forward = replace head gasket, resurface cylinder head if needed etc. (Though I haven't done this before and would greatly appreciate any advice, usually I am able to find the instructions online).

Now to the questions:

A fel pro 17030, would that be a good head gasket for this?
The engine is a vortec engine if that matters.

Should I exchange gaskets on both sides? I sure don't want to fix what isn't broken.

I think I saw a small droplet of water on the number 4 spark plug. Might be condensation, might also have ingested water and that caused the blown head gasket I guess?

Anything else I should look at when I pull the heads?

Do I have to pull the intake manifold to be able to pull the heads? In that case, do I need a new gasket for that as well?

Best regards,
Mike

[michael hunter]

Felpro makes great gaskets that should be fine. I would do both heads . Yes you have to pull the intake. Before you pull the heads pull the valve cover and check the rockers ,valve springs and cam lift.

[pridekit]

#1 is closest to the stern on the starboard side. #2 is closest to the stern on the port side.

I encourage you to read my thread (https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?17802-Overheated-this-weekend-0-compression-in-5-and-7), the job is a lot of work, but definitely do able. I believe we have nearly identical engines except the intake manifold and MEFI (Mine is MEFI 5). I bought FEL-PRO 17232 which includes the vortec head gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, and distributor gasket (along with some other stuff for the intake manifold, but were not applicable to mine). Summit carries this for $125.

There can (and will) be a lot of speculation. You can perform a leak down test if you have the equipment, but you will get a lot of information from pulling the bad head and having it analyzed. Does it have a heat exchanger or was it running saltwater through the motor?

As for the ticking, it seems to me that if the ticking was only occurring while in gear the ticking would not be coming from the engine but from the trans or v drive. Your valves are moving whether you are in gear or not, so if the cause was a blown gasket and pressure moving from what cylinder to the other it would occur in neutral as well. You can buy a mechanics stethoscope for under $10 and listen to the trans and v drive as someone drives.

[leetudor]

The clacking noise could be the drive plate going bad.

[CJD]

Yep...unfortunately that head will have to come off to see what's going on.

The clacking does have me stumped. Could be sticking valves or cracked flex plate. I would lean towards sticking valves, as it would be a huge coincidence to have the flex plate fail simultaneously with the head.

[pridekit]

CJD, wouldn't clacking valves occur when revving in neutral?

I suppose either way the head has to come off to resolve the no compression issue :/

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[roosm]

I hope I am allowed to link to another forum, otherwise I appologize in advance.

This is what is happening to me, exactly: http://www.shamrockboatownersclub.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-30519.html

The noise might be backfiring or valves smacking shut.

Since I dont have a V8 anymore, but rather a V7 with a dual cylinder firing out of sync I guess what is happening is when the piston tries to compress the gas it pushes it over to the cylinder next door, then fires and the explosion occurs partly in the wrong cylinder. This could cause backfiring or the valve at this point being open smacking closed, though I am unsure of how it works exactly. That is, what keeps the valves closed, what opens them etc. But the fact that the no 6 piston is in the wrong position and the cylinder is still full of gasoline gases and gets a spark when the no 4 spark plug fires could possibly cause all kinds of trouble.

I will tear down the engine this saturday and post pictures. Then we can diagnose this further.

My spark plugs showed evidence of carbon buildup.
This could be what caused detonation and a blown head gasket. Just a theory.

Thanks!

Mike

[CJD]

Pride, you're right...that's why I'm stumped. I follow the backfiring theory, but I wouldn't describe that sound as a "clacking tapping" sound. But it could just be semantics on what it sounds like.

Even with a blown gasket, I would think the compression check would show at least some reading. That is what has me thinking that the valves may not be closing all the way. The clacking would be when the cam lobe takes up the slack and the lifter smacks the pushrod. I don't have a theory as to why it wouldn't make the same noise in gear, though.

But, the main thing is, with 0 compression in 2 holes, the head will have to come off to fix any of the possible causes.

[roosm]

Pride, you're right...that's why I'm stumped. I follow the backfiring theory, but I wouldn't describe that sound as a "clacking tapping" sound. But it could just be semantics on what it sounds like.

Even with a blown gasket, I would think the compression check would show at least some reading. That is what has me thinking that the valves may not be closing all the way. The clacking would be when the cam lobe takes up the slack and the lifter smacks the pushrod. I don't have a theory as to why it wouldn't make the same noise in gear, though.

But, the main thing is, with 0 compression in 2 holes, the head will have to come off to fix any of the possible causes.

Well, I havent really listened alot to the sound, the sound of my engine possibly tearing to pieces aren't really my soundtrack. It is quite a bit of other noises going on at the same time.
On an other note, english is my second language and this is the first time I even use the word Clacking... =)
I guess someone else described an issue which I might have prediagnosed as my own problem as having a clacking sound when in gear and so I did too.

Just to try and go with the theory of backfiring being the noise (which was actually what my mother who was in the boat and who has actually heard backfiring before described it as).
Why wouldn't it be heard when out of gear?


I don't really understand how the whole valve-thing works and what would cause it not to clack. Especially only when in gear.
It is strange is what it is...

Couldn't the 0 compression be caused by the leak in the head gasket between the cylinders and the spark-plug being removed from that cylinder. I guess if I put a spark plug in that cylinder and try again I could get a different reading?

Mike

[CJD]

Sorry to say, I'm pretty familiar with the sounds of my engines self destructing!?!

You can re-do the compression check, but the bottom line is the head has to come off, whether it's a head gasket, valve, or anything else that would cause a loss of compression.

[2500HD]

Agree that the head has to come off, One possibility for the backfiring sound is the compression and firing could cause a backfire through the intake of the other cylinder. Why it would be under load only is beyond me. Send it off and they can tell you if the head is good or not. I would suggest doing your injectors while your there. When i did my head this spring i took a peek at my injectors and i couldn't believe it ran at all. I looked up the vortec specs and it turns out i could use the same one's out of a 95 camaro an reman's where only 29 bucks each. The other thing to do while your there is new rockers and rods, and don't reuse your head bolts buy new ones.

[CJD]

2500 just reminded me...with a stuck valve you will frequently NOT getting intake popping at idle. But, under load the mixture goes richer, and there's more volume of mixture in the cylinders, so that can trigger the intake front firing. That could explain what's going on. I guess a bad gasket could cause the same...but that would still be extremely rare compared to stuck...or burned...valves.

[pridekit]

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but 2500 are those the same injectors for the 2006? Do you have a part number?


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[roosm]

pridekit
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but 2500 are those the same injectors for the 2006? Do you have a part number?

Don't worry about that. Valid question as well! =)


CJD
2500 just reminded me...with a stuck valve you will frequently NOT getting intake popping at idle. But, under load the mixture goes richer, and there's more volume of mixture in the cylinders, so that can trigger the intake front firing. That could explain what's going on. I guess a bad gasket could cause the same...but that would still be extremely rare compared to stuck...or burned...valves.

There are lots of thoughts spinning around my head right now....
1) Head gasket shouldn't cause 0 compression.
2) It is very unlikely that we see 2 stuck intake valves at the same time.
3) It is uncertain if head-gasket would cause the noise, but a burnt valve will.

What do you say to this theory. The engine blew a head gasket, this caused rough running, but no noise or anything. My girlfriend reports she felt something "strange" with the boat when we left the dock, but it was probably a month since she last drove it / sat in it so she were a bit uncertain. I didn't feel it, though I was rather busy getting in to my wetsuit.

So we started with "just" a blown headgasket. Could this somehow cause the burnt valve, suddenly causing the noise?
If so, could it cause it in both cylinders at a time?



We will soon be able to stop speculating as I will post loads of pictures of tore down engine tomorrow night (well for you around lunch on saturday). If everything goes to plan.

My plan is:
Flush engine (without running it) with freshwater to get rid of any salt.
Empty engine of water.
Disconnect battery, any cables going to intake manifold ( injectors ) and remove hoses form thermostat.
Remove manifolds and risers.
Remove valve covers.

Remove Distributor??? I am uncertain on this one...

Remove Intake manifold.
Remove Cylinder heads.

Take pictures through out the process and especially when I am done for the day.
Post said pictures here and wait for your input. Then I can do any further investigation on sunday and probably order parts on monday/tuesday (I happen to be in luck as my brother will probably visit the US in 2 weeks and will then be able to bring back the parts for me so I save a ton on shipping. Prices here are unreal. The fel-pro gasket set that summit offers for 129 incl shipping is north of 400 dollars here.).

So any holes in my plan?

Thanks again guys for your input!

Mike

[2500HD]

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but 2500 are those the same injectors for the 2006? Do you have a part number?


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If i remember correct i got the part# off one of the injectors. The intake and mpi system appear to just be gm parts. nothin special about it.

[CJD]

Yes, the distributor goes through the intake, so it does have to come off too.

Once you remove the head we will be able to tell exactly what's going on...

Where are you located?

[roosm]

I am located on the west coast of Sweden, Europe.

So I finally pulled the heads today. Went smoother than expected.

When I separated the riser from the manifold on the port side (where my problem is) I saw evidence of water in the exhaust. Guess this has been going down to the cylinders. Might be the reason for my blown head gasket?

Once I pulled the head on the port side it was obvious the gasket was blown and the cross-firing between the cylinders has been burning though the head. I heard this was a possibility and it is obvious in my case. I will never get a gasket to seal that and it is too much to be able to machine it off. The head is scrap...

What is more troubling though is what I saw in cylinder 8. Here I see what looks like a hairline crack almost halfway around the cylinder.
Still no signs of water in the oil and compression was 210 on that cylinder.

What would crack the block. Freeze-damage, right? Maybe overheating.

I did not have any evidence of overheating when the gasket blew. In fact I only know I have had an overheat-problem once and that was 2009 or 2010 when the oil-cooler-filter got full of seaweed and was clogged.
I also know that back then 2009 and 2010 1) I didn't know the correct procedure back then and didn't empty the block of water before filling it with anti-freeze/water mix, but rather just flushed it with anti-freeze-mix which might have left the block with water in it in some remote locations without much or any anti-freeze. 2) we had a really cold winter either 2009 or 2010.

If what we are seeing is in fact a crack could this have happened 5 years ago I didn't notice?

Is the block done? Just get a new block and heads and move on?

Thanks for all your help!

Mike

1669816699167001670116702

[CJD]

Hey Mike,

Freeze damage can affect odd places in blocks. It usually cracks the outer wall, around block drains, but could very well have caused your #8 crack.

Machine shops in the states could easily fix that block with a liner. They bore the cylinder and then install a sleeve liner to bring it back to stock size. The last time I had it done it was $80 per sleeve. Sometimes that is cost effective, and others it's just as cheap to find a used block to start with for a rebuild.

I guess that's the bad news...the motor will have to come out and completely apart to repair the crack. This will turn into a full rebuild. If I were in your position, I'd consider the following options, and research to see which is the cheapest...
1). Sleeve your current block, hone and install new rings.
2). Look for a decent used engine.
3). Look for a new or rebuilt engine.

The heads don't look terribly bad, but they should get skimmed(decked), and have a valve job done while they're off. Unless you find a complete replacement engine, you will need the following parts in the rebuild...

1). Gasket and seal kit.
2). Main and rod bearings.
3) timing chain set.
4) ring set.

After an inspection, the crank may need machining, you may need oversize pistons if the cylinders need boring oversize, and you may need new valves and guides.

If you need an intermediary to help with shipping, and maybe save some duty charges, I'd be glad to help in any way I can. In the states you could pick up a rebuilt small block engine anywhere, but I imagine it's much harder in Sweden.

[roosm]

Hey!

Real nice offer about the shipping. Thanks!
We'll see what happens and I think I have intermediaries all ready...

I seem to have some good news. I am fairly certain that what I first though was a crack is in fact not a crack, but rather an edge created by salt-water lying in the cylinder for some period of time.
I you look at the image lower right part you see signs of corrosion, this surface is rough, well, maybe not so much to the touch but at least to the eye...
This goes over into what looks like a crack and comes all the way around the cylinder. In the part of the cylinder that faces the sky "the roof" as the cylinder is angled, this line looks completely perpendicular to the direction of the piston. I think the line is created by the piston sitting at this level. Then on the part facing the earth, "the floor", we have some corrosion and a small edge. This is so slight I can't feel it with my finger, though it catches my nail if I pull my nail over it. Just barely.. but still..

The cylinder head has a scorched "channel" between cylinder 4 and 6 which will make it impossible to ever seal it again. I think it is something like 0.05 - 0.1 inch deep. So, deep!
That will not be possible to remove by resurfacing as it would take too much of the head off. So at least I need a new head. The other head looks decent.

So, good news, no crack. Still bad news as I have 1 ruined cylinder head and some corrosion damage in (at least) one cylinder.
My best bet is that this corrosion-damage is old, not from this season, and maybe several years old. I think that if the head gasket wouldn't have blown (which I am still uncertain of why it did) I might never have known about this.
Could the gasket have blown due to a leak between riser and manifold? And then the blow-by scorched the head?

So as I see I have 4 choices.
1) Buy a new cylinder head and a gasket-set and install this. Live with the corroded cylinder wall and hope the engine survives a few more years (at least).
2) Drill and re-sleeve the cylinder(s) that are corroded. No one knows how much that would cost but I guess it is expensive. (i.e. rebuild).
3) Find a new or rebuilt engine.
4) Look for a decent used engine.

I am leaning towards going with 1 and then when time comes go with 3...
The reasoning is basically that with a saltwater / raw water cooled engine the water-channels in the intake manifold as well as maybe the heads and block it self will not live for ever. It is already a 13 years old engine and even if I rebuild it might not last me more than 5 more years.
A new/rebuilt engine would hopefully last at least 10, but then this engine is junk and in the mean time I might get a few years out of it without much work, just replacing one head and the gaskets.

Input on this?

I share with you the horrors of what saltwater does to an intake manifold... =)

[CJD]

If you are sure it is not a crack, don't worry about the slight corrosion in the cylinder. It will eventually fill in with carbon and not cause any problem at all. I bet the compression check on that cylinder was fine before the head came off.

.1" in the head is, indeed, too deep to fix. It had to run for a very long time with a hole in the gasket!

How is the block between the 4 and 6 cylinders?

[roosm]

If you are sure it is not a crack, don't worry about the slight corrosion in the cylinder. It will eventually fill in with carbon and not cause any problem at all. I bet the compression check on that cylinder was fine before the head came off.

.1" in the head is, indeed, too deep to fix. It had to run for a very long time with a hole in the gasket!

How is the block between the 4 and 6 cylinders?

Yeah, all cylinders except 4 and 6 read 195-210, this was one of the 210's. So it is fine.

Well, we have a new theory (from a Swedish forum) which I am starting to believe in.
We need the background story first.
This boat was originally purchased by me from a guy running a workshop in Georgia. The boat had previously rolled off its trailer bending the tower, messing up prop-shaft, windshield, damaging the front left side of the boat etc.
The guy running the workshop bought the boat off the insurance company. He had a good friend that owned a 2002 Supra Launch SSV and he borrowed his boat and used it as a mold to create a new front left side about 2 feet long or so.
This was put in place on what was eventually to be my boat. I bought the boat in rough shape with the restoration of the boat included in the price. They actually made a really nice job of putting it back together and I got my custom paint job which I really like. During this summer the friends Launch SSV which he evidently almost never used sat at the machine shop for most of the summer. Some parts arrived late and some other parts were deemed broken too late so we salvaged a few pieces here and there from the other Supra. Tachometer, Speedometer, Swim-platform, Windshield etc. =)
This guy didn't really care too much about his boat and/or was a really good friend to the mechanic.

Finally the day came when the boat was ready for a lake-test, we were just a week away from the day the boat was scheduled to be shipped to Sweden.
We took it out on the lake and after running a little while we started overheating. The guy driving the boat had full control of the gauges and quickly turned it off, let i cool down and we soon idled back to dock (or might even have got towed). Back to the shop and sure enough the oil-cooler-filter was plugged with sea-weed (such a poor design). Removed the sea weed and went to the lake again. Much better cooling but the guy driving almost didn't take his eyes off the dashboard.
Suddenly the oil pressure dropped to 0. He quickly turned of the engine but it was too late. The engine was frozen. Bearings shot.
So the guy running the shop had to make an awkward call. He called the owner of the other Supra and it went something like this:

Hey man!
---
Are you planning on using your boat this weekend?
---
Oh, good! I need your engine....

And so the night was spent to lift this other engine into my boat. This engine was a year newer with about 300 hours less if I remember correctly.
So I have the engine from the boat that the owner didn't really care if his engine, swim platform etc was removed from.
I have a feeling he whether he was just a really good friend or not, was not the kind of guy to be careful with his things.
Did I mention he was a professional athlete and I think competing in MMA?

So... Back to the theory..
The engine overheated causing a head gasket failure sometime during 2002-2008. The engine ran like this at least a few minutes going in to dock and maybe longer. The only symptom (really) being loss of power and rough running.
The owner took the boat to his good friend the mechanic. The engine was taken apart and they found the cylinder head in awful shape. The gasket was blown, the head had eroded since hot exhaust had jumped back and forth.
They were left with two options. Either get a new head or machine off some of that eroded metal and try to seal it with something, from the looks of it, they used something chemical, they didn't weld anything on it. But hey, I could be wrong here.

Lets say this happened on the 2nd of July and the big holiday was coming up with a party on the lake and they needed a quick fix that hopefully would at least last the day.
Turns out it lasted at least 7 years...

Might be a long shot, but if anyone would try to piece it together with something like Colexin and succeed, it would be the guys running that shop...

So, I am leaning towards picking up a new vortec head and bolting that back on there and hope for the best...

Anything else I should take care of while I have it apart?

Mike

[roosm]

Hi,

Would this be the correct part?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Performance-12558060-Small-Block-Chevy-Cast-Iron-Vortec-Cylinder-Head-/111397737536?hash=item19efd29440:g:7o8AAOSw~OdVcic 5&vxp=mtr#shpCntId
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-Performance-Vortec-Cylinder-Head-12558060-/331601098043?hash=item4d34f7353b:g:qRsAAOSwgQ9Vy9U s&vxp=mtr

Shipping to sweden for those arent too bad. 80 bucks. And then I have to pay another 100 bucks for duties and customs.
Comes to around 500 bucks for the head.
Locally the exact same part costs 800 at least.

Then this + the gasket set should set me back 630 bucks. And that isn't too bad if it gets me up and running again.

Mike

[CJD]

Interesting story! I've always believed the way to keep engines running is to keep mechanics away from them. I've spent half my life repairing shoddy work. I have to say, though,that this Georgia dude takes the cake!!

[2500HD]

Hi,

Would this be the correct part?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Performance-12558060-Small-Block-Chevy-Cast-Iron-Vortec-Cylinder-Head-/111397737536?hash=item19efd29440:g:7o8AAOSw~OdVcic 5&vxp=mtr#shpCntId
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-Performance-Vortec-Cylinder-Head-12558060-/331601098043?hash=item4d34f7353b:g:qRsAAOSwgQ9Vy9U s&vxp=mtr

Shipping to sweden for those arent too bad. 80 bucks. And then I have to pay another 100 bucks for duties and customs.
Comes to around 500 bucks for the head.
Locally the exact same part costs 800 at least.

Then this + the gasket set should set me back 630 bucks. And that isn't too bad if it gets me up and running again.

Mike

Look on your head for numbers that are cast into the head itself. This will give you the part number you need. Make sure you get new head bolts as well, don't cheap out and reuse the old ones. And while you have that intake off, take a look at your injectors i would bet new ones wouldn't hurt while your in there.

[pridekit]

I replaced my lifters while I had the heads off, a few were collapsed and others I thought may be going so I did all 16.


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[roosm]

I replaced my lifters while I had the heads off, a few were collapsed and others I thought may be going so I did all 16.


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Hi,

Thanks for the input, will have a closer look, but I think mine looked like new... Though granted I don't know what new looks like... =)

What head bolts do I need? Anyone have a link or part-number?
Can I get that from summit as well? Seem to have a good price on the gaskets I need.

THIS happened to my head: http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?182251-TIG-welding-cast-iron&

I guess this welding technique works pretty well, though not as good as new.
Might be the slight intrusion of salt water making my valves spotted with rust. This I guess might also have weakened the Weld enough for it to get blown away...

I'll have a closer look in the cylinders when I get to the boat on saturday. I will need to make sure I have no issues caused by a big piece of weld bouncing around in one of those cylinders before ultimately being blown out the exhaust?

I didn't see anything on my first look though. I also need to make sure the surface of the block looks good where the gasket-blow was. Can I rotate the engine to be able to see the entire cylinders while I have the heads off?
Will this mess up timing or something else? Should I take any certain measures now to make it easier when reassembling?

If this checks out, I guess I am shopping a new cylinder head and the gasket set, otherwise I might be in the market for a replacement block.

Thanks!

Mike

[pridekit]

You should be able to turn the cylinders by "hand". To do this, you will need to attach a socket (24mm I believe) and breaker bar (you can use a normal ratchet with a pipe on it to get leverage, but a breaker bar is a nice investment) to the crankshaft. The crankshaft nut is covered by your raw water pump so you will need to pull this off first. Alternatively you can give the key a little bump, to kick move the cylinders.

Here are the parts I got:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-3601
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12558060 (I decided to do both of mine at once due to saltwater corrosion of one of my heads, the other hide wasn't as bad, but definitely had signs of corrosion.)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-434-2102
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-17232 (Double check this to make sure it is what you need. I think my motor is a couple years newer, but all of the vortec heads should use the same head gasket and intake gasket to my understanding)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-35062 (Your's thermostat gasket may be different, double check this)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330870652432?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (Summit had these lifters prices at $15-18 each)
http://www.mrcool.us/20-0082ss-p-barr-marine-kit.html (I replaced my riser gaskets as one had blown out, I opted to go with stainless bolts for anything that I could and either thread sealant or anti-seize grease)

You will likely need to reset the timing, there's some procedures for this, but we will need a bit more information. If you can let us know (or send a picture) what your distributor and MEFI computer look like we can help with the timing procedure :)
Here is a basic reference guide: https://www.bakesonline.com/images/MediaLibrary/IndmarIgnitionTiming.pdf You may need the DIACOM software or a TechMate device to set the timing, or find a mechanic that has it.


Before you buy stuff, check that block and make sure all is good there. I'd hate for you to spend a bunch of money in shipping and customs and then have to return (or attempt to return) stuff after because there is something more wrong with the block (it would be cheaper to buy a remanufactured motor at that point I would think)

[roosm]

Hey!

Were out at the boat today. Looked at the block. Had some light carbon buildup between 4&6 but I gave it just a few strokes with 1200 grit paper and it quickly disappeared. Tested it with a feeler gauge and couldn't fit a 0,004 inch in there. I held a new razor perpendicular to the place that would be damaged with a led light behind it and it didn't spill any light so seemed perfectly flat!

The casting numbers on the heads are 10239906.
Would the summit ones work?

Thanks!

[roosm]

So I found information online that it should be possible to combine 906 and 062 heads with each other and that the 060 head that summit offers is really just a part number and the casting is actualy 062. So I should be fine there from what I understand.

I am right now considering:
Bare cylinder head 906/062 casting for 390 bucks including shipping and customs. Making it less of a likely choice as I would have to reuse my valves and have them set and everything.
Used Mercruiser cylinder head 906 casting for 390 bucks including shipping and customs.
Remanufactured cylinder head mercruiser for 526 including shipping and customs.
Remanufactured cylinder head unknown make (truck?) for possibly a little less than the used one. (I need stainless Valves, anything else specific to marine application?)
New cylinder head from either JEGS or Summit for 525 including shipping and customs (making it an attractive choice, but is the quality of these up to par with what came with the boat? Or would it be better to go for a remanufactured Mercruiser head?).
Both JEGS and Summit has an item Chevrolet Performance 12558060. I am guessing these to be the same thing, just two different companies selling it?

Any input on these choices?

[CJD]

The bare head would cost as much as the Summit by the time you did the valve job on it. The remanufactured heads may or may not be a good deal. It depends on the reputation of the rebuilding company. I've had both good and bad experiences with remanufactured.

I am not impressed with the original Indmar heads. They work, but they are not anything special. I think the Summit or Mercruiser heads would be an improvement.

[roosm]

The bare head would cost as much as the Summit by the time you did the valve job on it. The remanufactured heads may or may not be a good deal. It depends on the reputation of the rebuilding company. I've had both good and bad experiences with remanufactured.

I am not impressed with the original Indmar heads. They work, but they are not anything special. I think the Summit or Mercruiser heads would be an improvement.

But I guess my (in that case) inferior head would work together with a new summit-head?
I found a used head on ebay, mercruiser one, where the other head was ruined (together with the engine I guess) because the engine was hydro-locked on that side. Seller guarantees no cracks and has tested with feeler gauge.
Looks to be in good condition. Price with shipping would be 280 + customs = 364 dollars. Compared with 521 dollars for JEGS (or 524 for same thing from summit) heads.
For the 160 I think I will be able to have the head resurfaced and if there are shortcomings with any of the valves (even if the seller, who is a mechanic I think, have checked them and says they are ok) have them fixed.

Question then comes to would a used mercruiser be better than a new "Chevrolet Performance 12558060"?

If I were in the US and the used head was 100 + 50 in shipping I would lean towards that. But now it is 100 + 180 shipping.

Thanks for all the help!

[CJD]

Any idea of the hours on the used head?

The advantage of new is that you know what you are getting. With used engine parts there is always risk in the unknown.

It is best to have identical heads, but many, many of these small block engines are on the road/water with non-matching heads. As long as the intake and exhaust ports match the manifolds, and the combustion chambers are the same size, the engine will run just fine.

[roosm]

Hi,

No, I have no idea on the hours. Though I checked the sellers location and realized that he is located in a coastal town in Florida, meaning the head has most likely been used in saltwater.
Sure, my heads has as well, though the saltwater is not as salt here in Sweden and usually is a little bit kinder to all the engine components compared to over in Florida.
This put me off a little on the head and looking closely at the water jackets/channels in the head on ebay I see some rust and that tells me I am probably better off with a new head.
Sure, most likely the head will be fine and it will live as long as the rest of the engine. If the shipping would be the same on both heads so the used one would cost 180 incl shipping + 30% tax/customs I would probably go down that road. Now it is 280 + tax compared to 400 + tax. The difference in the end is just a little over a 100 bucks.

From what I can tell both heads, the summit and mine, are 64 cc and both heads use the same size valves and everything. No difference in that regard from what I can tell.

Leaning towards ordering a head from summit today.

Thanks,
Mike

[pridekit]

Where in Florida? I might be able to swing by and look at it if it's within a couple hours of Miami.


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[roosm]

Where in Florida? I might be able to swing by and look at it if it's within a couple hours of Miami.


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Wow! You guys are unreal. Pridekit will drive around Florida and CJD will act as my shipping agent. Thank you for the offers!

I actually went with my gut and bought that used head after emailing with the seller back and forth. He seemed like a nice guy, he is a mechanic and runs a shop and I can't really imagine that his business would be ripping off swedes when selling used parts on eBay. I wouldn't be surprised if the previous owner who got a new engine, hopefully from the insurance company never sees any of the cash the used parts bring in. Neither will the insurance company.

He checked it with a flat bar, he checked all valves for sticking and sealing, he cleaned it up and painted it. He guarantees no cracks. So sounds good and he had 100% positive eBay rating.

Hopefully it turns out too be a good choice.

If I happen to be in Miami I will buy a beverage of choice!

Do you wakeboard in the ocean outside Miami? Can you go on the inside of the small long islands/beaches like south beach? I would guess they are no wake? Seems very windy? :)

[pridekit]

Wow! You guys are unreal. Pridekit will drive around Florida and CJD will act as my shipping agent. Thank you for the offers!

I actually went with my gut and bought that used head after emailing with the seller back and forth. He seemed like a nice guy, he is a mechanic and runs a shop and I can't really imagine that his business would be ripping off swedes when selling used parts on eBay. I wouldn't be surprised if the previous owner who got a new engine, hopefully from the insurance company never sees any of the cash the used parts bring in. Neither will the insurance company.

He checked it with a flat bar, he checked all valves for sticking and sealing, he cleaned it up and painted it. He guarantees no cracks. So sounds good and he had 100% positive eBay rating.

Hopefully it turns out too be a good choice.

If I happen to be in Miami I will buy a beverage of choice!

Do you wakeboard in the ocean outside Miami? Can you go on the inside of the small long islands/beaches like south beach? I would guess they are no wake? Seems very windy? :)

Wakeboarding in the ocean is a bit tough unless it's really calm, but we have gone down the the Florida keys and wakeboard end in the Gulf of Mexico/Florida bay early in the morning. Usually we wakeboard on the inside of the islands, it's has a lot of boat traffic and it can get pretty windy, but we have a lot of fun :)

If you make it down to Miami we will have to take the boat out :P


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[suprasaltareaud]

Mike. That is one seriously crazy story. Have you got the head yet? Is it in

[roosm]

Hey guys,

I have got the head now. It arrived last friday and I didn't have the possibility to work at it last weekend but the plan is to put it all together on saturday. I got a friend of mine to help me out so it should be too much trouble putting it together.
I have already cleaned all gasket materials, painted the heads, painted and cleaned exhaust manifolds and risers. So should just be to put it back together.

I have all the gaskets I need, RTV, thread chasers, some assembly lube, thread sealers, sockets of the correct size and everything I need for a nice install.

The new heads looks nice on first examination.

My plan is to, in the event that something foreign fell down the oil lines, some gasket material or something, you cant be too sure, even though I tried to avoid it.
Empty the engine of the old oil. Add new oil, run the engine. Change the filter. Run the engine. Change oil and filter.
Should do it?

Mike

Mike

[roosm]

So when looking at the head in better light (had just looked at while lying in my car) I saw that the guy selling the head probably more or less painted the head without spending too much time removing any rust spots around the exhuast ports for example.
I decided brush it down with a steel brush and clean it up a little better before painting it all over again. This added some time to my project so I didn't get as far as I would have liked.

I did manage to get both heads on and the intake as well.
Didn't have any time to test compression or anything so right now it just looks good, but I don't really know anything.

Next step would be to install the distributor and set the timing.

The balancer does have the TDC mark on it that lines up with the timing tab on the timing chain cover. Though I have no (from what I could see at least) timing marks/degrees to be able to find 10 BTDC.
I understand that this is 10 degrees BTDC on the cam (and distributor rotor) so that would mean 20 degrees BTDC on the balancer.
My plan is to measure the circumference of the balancer and calculate where the 20 degree mark should be and mark it by using two tape strips that leaves a small gap for the 20 degree mark and then spray paint that gap with white paint.

When setting the "base" / initial timing before firing up the engine I guess I should put that 20 degree mark in timing tab gap so that the engine sits at 10 BTDC.
Then put an ohm-meter on the distributor cable from the ignition coil as well as the spark cable for the no 1 cylinder.
Put the rotor pointing at the No 1 cylinder in the distributor cap.
Turn the distributor CW until the ohm meter reads infinite. Then turn the distributor CCW to the point where the rotor just makes contact with the No 1 cylinder connection and thus giving me close to 0 Ohm resistance.
Carefully torque down the distributor hold down clip without turning the distributor.

This should, I guess, set the engine at 10 BTDC.

Next step would be to get a timing light, build my own timing shunt (as I don't have one and I guess they might be hard to come by over here, and unnecessarily expensive).
Start the engine and check the timing with the light.

But is it really necessary? Would I actually be able to be more accurate this way than I would with my method above?
Seems to me the method should be at least as accurate as my ability to mark the 20 degree btdc on the balancer. Meaning that would be the weak point.
Of course I would have to make sure she runs good afterwards and if it doesn't, I would need to adjust the timing

Thanks,
Mike

[chris young]

10 degrees is what you want on the balancer, not 20 Take a really good look, there should be timing marks on it somewhere. Also Summit and other places sell tape that you can put on the balancer you just need to know the size of the balancer. I'm sure you already know this, but for anyone reading this who doesn't, 10 degrees BTDC is the point when the spark fires, so that would be when the points open on older motors, or when the gap on the optical sensor on electronic conversions is aligned. On my electronic module there is an LED that tells you that the gap is aligned, so for your initial static timing you can just set the crank at 10 deg BTDC and rotate the distributor until the led lights. (while the rotor is aligned with #1 coil wire)

Hope this helps

[wotan2525]

I believe you can set the distributor while the crank is at TDC -- there is not enough teeth on distributor to get it as finely tuned as you are expecting based just on the install. Set the motor at TDC, install the distributor with the rotor pointed at the #1 wire and it should run. You will still have to "time" it to the correct specs.

[roosm]

Hmm.. From what I have read I want 10 cam / rotor degrees BTDC not 10 balancer degrees. The balacer degrees on the tape, as I understand it, are actually not 10 degrees rotation of the balancer but 10 degrees rotation of the cam and 20 degrees of the balacer.
10 degrees at the balancer would be 5 degrees BTDC for the cam / rotor...

My balancer has chipped paint for the 2 inches around the TDC machined marking. Any paint/tape or other on the balancer would be invisible.

Any one know for sure if it is 10 BTDC cam/rotor/balancer?

[ssa]

I've never heard anyone refer to timing as degrees of cam or rotor rotation. Its always expressed in degrees of crankshaft/balancer rotation. The cam turns half the rpm of the crank so there's no reason to reference cam degrees of timing all that's important is how many degrees before the crank hits TDC do you light the plug. Too late you lose power and too early you try and drive the crank out of the bottom of the motor.

[roosm]

Hi!

Yeah, I googled some more yesterday and found procedures for how to measure where to put the mark and they referred to it as being balancer degrees.
8 inch balancer diameter * PI (3.14) / 36 (360 degrees * 10) = 0.872 inch before TDC. So that should so it. Well, if the balancer is 8 inch...

Don't know where I found someone referring to it as cam-degrees but I did. But since you shouldn't trust everything you read online I asked the question here.

Thanks!
Mike

[CJD]

I know your confusion...the Brits love to reference cam timing. If it is a US engine, it will always be in reference to the crankshaft...so balancer markings.

[CJD]

OK, finally caught up on your work...

I am not sure if the ohm meter will work as you are trying to use it. This engine uses a magnetic pick-up. I would recommend setting the crank position to the 10 degrees BTDC, and then rotate the distributor to the left (CCW) until you get a spark at the number one plug. Just set the plug on a bare part of the engine block and watch for it to spark. Try it a few times, and you will get the feel for exactly when the plug is going to spark. Then lock down your distributor at that point.

Once the engine is running, you can verify the 10 degrees with your timing light.

[chris young]

Well done CJD I never thought of doing it that way, very simple.

[roosm]

Hi again,

Okey, so this weekend didn't go as planned.
I got to the boat saturday evening and managed the initial timing setting, installing the distributor.
Then I figured it was time for a compression test.
I got lower than before on all cylinders, no idea why?
The indmar original head side read 150-160 PSI (before it was like 190-210 ?).

The opposite side, with the mercruiser head read about 130-140, except for the number 6 cylinder. This one read 70-80.

I gave up for the night, it was starting to drop close to freezing temps and it was getting late, the sauna was warm and well.. I had other things to do... =)
During the saturday evening I figured that this could be related to the valve lash adjustment.

On sunday, i tested backing off a little on the lash adjustment on no 6 and the compression read higher. Maybe about 110 PSI, I then backed it almost all the way off, where I could just spin the pushrod and I got 150-160 somewhere.
I then used an air compressor and blew air through the spark plug hole while at TDC for the given cylinder and found that most of the cylinders on the even-numbers bank at least had some small leak. Either exhaust or intake valve.
I then set all of them using my reversed method of blowing with the compressor and adjusting until right before I got a small leak through either intake or exhaust.
This is however (especially for no 6 cylinder) quite much softer than the recommended indmar tension of tightening until no play can be felt in the push rod and then go 360 degrees more.

After my new lash adjustment I got better readings around 150-160 on the even numbers bank. My final test of compression on the odd numbers bank gave me 160-180 on the cylinders. One being 160 and the other 3 all being 180.
At this point the lash adjustment for cylinder 6 is probably too soft, more like a tighten until 0 lash is felt and stop, no 360 degrees or even 180 as I have read online as another suggested method.

Another thing that felt strange was that after compression testing all cylinders, cranking the engine probably 3-4 revolutions per cylinder so lets call it 25-30 revolutions total.
The play in the no 6 cylinder was really large. Might have had a problem with the lifters sticking? And oil moving around making it different?

I kind of came to the conclusion that one plausible explaination was that the valve springs of the mercruiser head were weaker and I plan to switch the springs to the ones from the indmar head.

Any other ideas?

Mike

[CJD]

Remember these hydraulic lifters have been sitting for many weeks, so they may be at different states of "pump up". That will affect the readings before you actually run the motor and let the oil galleries come to pressure. Set them as the manual recommends.

The readings , except for #6, sound ballpark to me. The earlier ones in the 190psi range were abnormally high. At this point the rings have different amounts of oil and rust from sitting...so don't sweat the compression differences until you have run the motor and burned out the oil in the cylinders. Also, valves can get bits of carbon in the seat that will free once you run it. They will seat fully after the first run.

Guess I'm trying to say...time to run it a few minutes, and then recheck compression.

[roosm]

Hi again!

I spent most of the weekend setting valve lash according to the manual and then hooking everything up again to be ready to start. Built my own timing shunt as I didn't have any and don't know where to get one.

Today I was gonna fire up and set timing.
Crank but no start. Unplugged timing shunt and plugged in the ecm and it started right up! I finally realized my injectors are not firing when the ecu is not hooked up!
I poured a small amount of gas down the throat of the engine and it ran fine for like one second with shunt in place.

How do you get the injectors working with the ecu not hooked up to the distributor?

Thanks!
Mike

[roosm]

Okey, after some time googling on this I found that the timing shunt seem to be valid for Carb and EFI-engines but not for TBI engines, at least not with MEFI4 ECU.

I later read in my Indmar MEFI4 manual that the procedure was in fact different according to that manual. You insert a scan-tool or short between terminals A&B on the DTC-connection/diagnostic connection.
This puts the engine in service mode and it will automatically go to a fast idle at 1200 RPM and base timing. At this setting you set the base timing, then let it warm up and recheck timing as it might change.

Sounds right?

Thanks,
Mike

[CJD]

That does sound correct, if you do have that ecu/efi version. It is difficult to tell which Indmar used for different engines during different production years.

I have the 2005 325 HP engine, and I had to buy a cheap gizmo that plugs into the diagnostic connector. It allows me to do the very basics, like set timing in service mode and read error codes with a flashing LED. Much cheaper than the full GM diagnostic tool, but very crude. If I remember (and it's been a while since I researched it), all my tool does is allow the "shunting" of a couple connections and it provides an LED to read.

If you get stuck, I Can dig up the details on the tool.

[roosm]

Okey,
This would have been much more painless if I knew what I was doing before hand. =)
As I said before, I spent a day adjusting my valves, testing compression, doing leakdown-tests and so on. I then learned I should adjust according to the manual, run the engine, then check compression and hope that the lifters adjust as they should to the valve settings.
Next I spent a day building a timing shunt and trying to start the engine with it. Only to later find out that the Indmar Delco EST TBI engine does not use a timing shunt but rather just a short between terminals A&B.

I tested the short between A&B on friday evening and it worked excellent. Though as it was getting dark I quickly gave up for the night and figured I better adjust the timing when I see what I am doing.
Next day, I spent a couple of hours trying to get the engine to fire up again as the batteries gave their last starting it on friday. (Just my luck).

I finally got it fired up, had to move the timing just about 1-2 degrees from my initial setting, let it warm up, and timing hadn't changed.
I went a head with my winterization putting water/anti-freeze mix in the engine and so on.
I then went ahead and tested compression on my two trouble cylinders where no 6 was adjusted so that it read 70 psi before the engine had gotten warm. The lifters or something else, like carbon on the valves, obviously worked better as I now got my 160 PSI.
I didn't check compression on all cylinders as all of the others were fine before and shouldn't have gotten any worse, and I already had anti-freeze in the engine and I don't want to run it all out of there with the impeller.
So in the end, all seems well. Engine runs good, no water in cylinders after being ran, good compression... Only thing was the gas-chamber I built for my self with a tarp over the boat and running the engine... It got old quick to be standing around in there... =)
I also had a small exhaust leak between muffler and exhaust hoses. I might just need to get new hoses if it doesn't settle in once they get real hot.

Thanks for all your help guys!

[CJD]

Glad to hear you're finally back up and running! I bet it'll make a huge difference next spring when it's running on all 8 cylinders...

[suprasaltareaud]

Was there water coming out where you think the leak is or just fumes? Pretty straight forward changing the rubber but hopefully not under the floor somewhere. Very happy for you everything else is finally running though. what a nightmare it has been though. Time for a cold beer and a cruise. cheers. Jason

[roosm]

Hey,

The exhaust leak was mainly fumes, but also some dripping of water. It is the short (8 inch?) hose that connects the exhaust elbows/risers with the muffler that is leaking. Very accessible and visible.
I had to replace those hoses a few years back when I got sea weed into my oil cooler strainer and it clogged up. The engine over-heated, though, not that badly. It did run dry of cooling water but not long enough for the block itself to get really hot. The impeller and water pump itself finally got replaced and those hoses showed some wear from the heat so I replaced those too.
Engine was fine as far as I could tell though. The ECU put it in some protective mode otherwise I suspect something really bad would have happened.

Thanks!

Now I just need to wait for some better weather, it is freezing (below 0 celcius/32 farenheit) and I would guess the water is down to low 40ies.
May is a reasonable month for launching the boat and having going for a few sessions with cold water but nice enough weather and air temperature. =)

[roosm]

Okey,

So revival of this old thread. We finally had some good weather coming our way with 63 F air temp and 52 F water temp so we got the boat in the ocean this weekend.
Everything seemed fine, she ran great and no obvious leaks or other problems. Had a 5 mile trip from the ramp to our dock + a decent wakeboard session.
Oil looks good, engine runs good though I thought I heard a ticking noise from the port side, probably from the valve train. Only noticed it while first idling at the ramp and then I think it went away.
If it keeps ticking/clattering should I check my valve adjustment once again?
Could have been the fuel pump making the noise, but it felt like it was something that I wasn't familiar with.

Thanks!

[2500HD]

set your valves while engine is running. It's the easiest way. Fuel pumps usually whine not click. At least if it's electric inline.

[roosm]

Hi,

Thanks for the input, I was at the boat this weekend and started to adjusting my valve lash again, this time with engine running. I backed one off, approx 3/4 turn and got a loud Tick-Tick-Tick noise back. So I tightened it again, slowly, and it went away.
That lead me to the conclusion that this wasn't my issue. I went ahead and adjusted the valves and remounted the valve covers.

Then I found a new noise coming from that area and realised I still had a small exhaust leak on the port side, where I had the noise. I tightened the hose clamp a little and it went away. This might have been what I heard with the engine cover closed.

Then I realized I still had my clicking/ticking noise with the engine cover open and it is coming from the fuel injectors. After some google:ing I found that it is normal for the TBI fuel injectors to be loud. They seem to work perfectly.
I guess I am just more observant/worried than normal.

Engine seem to run great! =)