Rudder replacement

[Sdc77]

Hi guys,
I just broke my rudder on a underwater wood part. I asked a propeller Professional, he said to me this one is dead and can't be fixed

I would like to replace the whole system as I'm still on a stuffing box one, with nut and locking nut.

I find this kit :

malibu-mlbu3411021-rudder-kit (http://greatlakesskipper.com/malibu-mlbu3411021-marine-hardware-rptn-slotrbstassy-7-7-8-inch-stainless-steel-slotted-tournament-ski-boat-rudder-kit)

Price seems ok to me, they ship to France.

But, the arm is on the driver side. On mine it's on passenger side. If I mount this kit this way, the boat will go wrong way when I turn the steering.

Any advice ?

[crystal waters]

Hi guys,
I just broke my rudder on a underwater wood part. I asked a propeller Professional, he said to me this one is dead and can't be fixed

I would like to replace the whole system as I'm still on a stuffing box one, with nut and locking nut.

I find this kit :

malibu-mlbu3411021-rudder-kit (http://greatlakesskipper.com/malibu-mlbu3411021-marine-hardware-rptn-slotrbstassy-7-7-8-inch-stainless-steel-slotted-tournament-ski-boat-rudder-kit)

Price seems ok to me, they ship to France.

But, the arm is on the driver side. On mine it's on passenger side. If I mount this kit this way, the boat will go wrong way when I turn the steering.

Any advice ?



Talk or email the folks at Skidim
They can give you the correct info and probably the correct part

[Sdc77]

Thanks bud.
Skidim didn't answered yet, but their rudder kit is 50% more expensive ($450 vs $300).

So I just placed an order on the link I posted. In fact the tiller arm is on starboard (I need it on port side), but I can reverse the cable on my direction box under the dash. So no real issue. I just need to fab a new symetrical guide plate holder in front of the rudder.

I will post pics as soon as I start the installation.

Cheers

[chris young]

I was going to suggest you just install it as is and get used to the "new handling feature" :cool:

[Sdc77]

Ahaha sounds weird but can be fun on a lake ...

[SquamInboards]

I have driven two different boats where the steering had been hooked up backwards. It was later fixed... but yeah. It's "interesting"

[Sdc77]

Sainless steel rudder just received.
This thing is shiny !

Only 3 days to be delivered from the USA to my facility. It's faster than some France to France mail ...

17175

17176

[mabbore]

That is a pretty good deal on a rudder assembly. The only concern I would have is that being Stainless its quite a bit more brittle. So if you hit something with your old Bronze/Nibral rudder, it just bends but stainless might snap off.

[suprasaltareaud]

Can't be any worse than the one he just broke.

[Sdc77]

Thanks for the advise mabbore.
Anyway SS can be welded, bronze can't, or at least can be but mecanically brittle. That's what said the prop rebuilder I asked. I didn't post pics, but my bronze rudder is still in one piece. The axle is bended and ripped at the bended point.
It will be too weak to use it again.

17196

Here is the cable holder built in symmetry and in stainless steel. i don't know yet if I slant cut it as factory. Nothing seems to be on its way :

17197

[korey]

Well, looks like I am in a similar position now. Since the starter is out of my boat I decided to look deeper into the rudder leak tonight. Dropped the rudder and found the shaft pretty severely bent (like 3/8" over the 5-1/2", trig says that's almost 4 deg). I hit something last fall that had me send the prop out for repair, it felt like it hit the rudder too, but I've been ignoring it. I thought, "I've got 2 engineering degrees, grew up in a machine shop and work with metal every day. I can straighten that!" Wrong. The (presumably bronze) tore at the base of the rudder. Had I left it alone and just re-packed the box again I'd be alright... DOH! It was working, I just got in a tinkering mood...

I'll be on the horn with skidim in the morning to possibly amend my starter order to include one of their rudder packages, or at least get some advice. Probably a call directly to Marine Hardware - the OEM for most underwater gear on any inboard, and my research says the manufacturer of the skidim kit. Looks like there are (like the OP here did) less expensive options than skidim. Any experience in this matter is appreciated!

I have access to the machinery and know how to preform a repair of removing the broken shaft, boring a hole and shrink-fitting a replacement to it, but I'm concerned with the thin wall that would be left to hold the rudder. I;ve never been in s boat that lost a rudder st speed, and I'm damn sure it won't be because my repair work!

[korey]

Just found this 5 year old thread that has good things to say about the replacement that I'm considering!
https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?8781-Aftermarket-vs-original-rudder/page2

So it turns out that Marine Hardware knows what they're talking about and even Skidim didn't know they had the newer style rudder with no grease fitting. SO bottom line, the new rudder in my '89 has no grease fitting. It fit in the existing holes with no problem, no drilling, and I even used the old inside backing plate.

Test drive: this is the best upgrade I have ever done to this boat, or any vehicle for that matter. This boat drives like a brand new ski boat. I have driven a huge variety of boats, and my 89 bravura now steers as well as any of them, it is absolutely fantastic. One finger steering at any speed, a little harder to the right (naturally) and not a single drop of water comes in through the rudder port. 100% worth the effort and money ($376 shipped from skidim) as long as you're not paying labor. And even then, honestly, this is such a difference that it would have been worth a lot more than $376.

Granted my rudder was in bad shape, but I highly recommend taking a long look at your rudder if you have easy steering at idle but hard steering at speed.

Happy Memorial Day!

[Sdc77]

Hi Korey,
Sorry I didn't post pics of the replacement process (actually I didn't took pics :( ). in fact it's done, and I also have this feeling that I drive a brand new ski boat. I used to drive it with 2 strong arms, now I drive it with 1 finger !
The Skidim ref is direct fit replacement. No need to drill anything, nore replace the cable side. It's a little more expensive than the SS Malibu kit I ordered, that need to rebuild the L frame handling the cable at the rear of the boat, and changing the cable side on the steering Wheel (it enters from low side and goes out from upper side. Just need to do the opposite on mine).
The only bothering thing is to remove the fuel tank. Then it's pretty easy and direct replacement swap.

Good luck

[korey]

Thanks for the input. Just talked to the folks at skidim and got my rudder on the way for Thursday. She warned that I'll likely need to bevel the edges of the flange that goes underneath the hull to deal with a radius in the fiberglass.

Just went out and looked at the press I was using to straighten the shaft that broke. I knew the hand on the gauge was on about "9 or 10" when it went, but I didn't know what units it was in. Looks like I had about 9 or 10 Metric Tonnes on it, or 22,000 lbs. sorry for partying! Just goes to show you what force was involved to bend that in the first place. I was (attempting to) supporting the shaft in a similar way that the boat does to avoid turning it into a wavy mess.

I'll likely use tonight to remove the old port and clean up. I've seen all of the talking about removing the tank - which I have done once before - but I'm kind of thinking that it can be done without. At least on my boat if you remove the center section of the rear seat, there is no floor under it and provides a reasonable amount of space to reach back. No need to even remove the rest of the seats and motor box to get the maintenance panel out. I've done the rudder packing twice this way, and replaced the steering cable and clamp block this way.

Is my boat abnormal, or am i crazy for thinking I can do it this way? The boat has a 100% full tank of gas, and I don't own anything large enough to transfer that into!

[wotan2525]

On my saltare, working on the rudder with the tank in place was possible..... but you needed super long arms and a russian gymnasts flexibility to operate a ratchet or do anything with 2 hands. It was always easier to remove the tank. You're right, though.... you'll need to drain it before that is even remotely possible. I would just syphon it into all of my vehicles.

[korey]

things went much smoother than expected tonight! No problems for me accessing the rudder port without pulling the tank. Like I said, I just removed the center seat section altogether, and it took a little contorting, but not too bad. The nuts came off easily (actually seemed borderline loose) and the bolts and port knocked out with minimal force from a 5lb sledge (obviously i couldn't get much of a swing on it with the tank in place). I should have threaded the gland nut back on to save the top threads on the port, but oh well, that setup is dead now... Mine was just in there with some crappy white silicone looking stuff, so it came apart way easy. I was expecting a battle - I even had a buddy come over to fire watch if I had to bust out a torch to add some heat! I'm going back in with 5200, so here's hoping she's on to her next owner before it ever comes apart again! After taking it apart, I'm sure that some - or most - of my water was coming in. The wood is wet, but not rotten, so must be a new development. I'll dry it out and maybe hit ti with some CPES tomorrow, then the rudder should be on my doorstep after work Thursday! Planning to leave Friday at lunch for a long weekend on Laurel Lake in southern KY, so here's hoping that everything goes smoothly and the 5200 FAST sets up as quickly as it is supposed to!

[SquamInboards]

Good luck with that. I did mine with the tank in place, it was a pain but overall easier than removing the tank in my case. I believe the tank was put in before the cap was put on in my boat. There was just no way it was coming up through the ski locker. The limitation was actually the fact that it couldn't be rotated. You know how when you rotate a rectangular solid, it gets wider before it gets narrower? This was the problem. I just don't think it is possible to do it with the cap on in my particular boat. So it stayed in.

I'm sure you'll love the new rudder, you may also have to "tune" it a bit. I suspect you've read about this, but if not, I'm happy to point you in the right direction (no pun intended!!).

[scottschmitt]

SquamInbaords -

I'd appreciate a little "tuning" advice here. Somehow I knocked off my rudder a couple years ago and had it replaced (89 Sunsport). It was my first year with the boat and I dropped it off at a shop to winterize (I can winterize myself now cuz Supra turns boaters into mechanics). They called to ask if the boat was steering and if I knew it didn't have a rudder. Not sure where I lost the rudder, but it wasn't there. Fortunately, insurance paid to replace it.

It rides great, but the steering wheel isn't exactly aligned. At the beginning of last season, I monkeyed around with the rudder adjustment and made it worse, then a little better. It's close now, but not perfect. I haven't gone back to try and fine tune it better. I was basically loosening the bolts where the control arm attaches to the steering cable. It's a weird reach through the back seat and pretty imprecise work. If you have other suggestions for fine tuning, I'd be grateful.

[korey]

I have never messed with any rudder tuning and probably won't, but I get the concept as "grind a little off of the trailing edge - like less than 1/8" chamfer - on the side that you want to add some pull". The idea is to add some pull to the side to counteract the natural pull of the prop wash - in my (and most of us here) case, the boat will naturally go right, so tune on the left to counteract it. It should also be fairly speed specific, so tuning it in at 32mph may not be perfect at 22.

[Hagman]

I hope you're happy with the new rudder shape. I change mine out to the same as yours two years ago right away I noticed that the steering characteristics of my boat had changed. I wish I would have researched a little more to find the proper shape rudder.Good morning-
I know now what it is you have:
(1) SEF-1014 Rudder (13' off 90' Port) Direct Drive $354.00
(1) SEF-1102 Rudder Port $169.00
(1) SEF-1000-10S Arm $44.00

We can ship them out today.
Give me the ok and I will send them your way!!!!!!



April Ward
Production Coordinator
Southeastern Foundries Corp.
(336) 299-7211 ext#223
Fax: (336) 299-9591

[SquamInboards]

SquamInbaords -

I'd appreciate a little "tuning" advice here. Somehow I knocked off my rudder a couple years ago and had it replaced (89 Sunsport). It was my first year with the boat and I dropped it off at a shop to winterize (I can winterize myself now cuz Supra turns boaters into mechanics). They called to ask if the boat was steering and if I knew it didn't have a rudder. Not sure where I lost the rudder, but it wasn't there. Fortunately, insurance paid to replace it.

It rides great, but the steering wheel isn't exactly aligned. At the beginning of last season, I monkeyed around with the rudder adjustment and made it worse, then a little better. It's close now, but not perfect. I haven't gone back to try and fine tune it better. I was basically loosening the bolts where the control arm attaches to the steering cable. It's a weird reach through the back seat and pretty imprecise work. If you have other suggestions for fine tuning, I'd be grateful.

When I'm talking about tuning, it's about what Korey said below - whether the boat tends to pull one way or the other. As far as aligning the wheel, unfortunately that's probably the best way to do it, unless your wheel is splined - but it's much more likely to have a keyway so you can't exactly fine-tune the steering wheel any other way. Mine has never been near straight and I gave up on that long ago.


I have never messed with any rudder tuning and probably won't, but I get the concept as "grind a little off of the trailing edge - like less than 1/8" chamfer - on the side that you want to add some pull". The idea is to add some pull to the side to counteract the natural pull of the prop wash - in my (and most of us here) case, the boat will naturally go right, so tune on the left to counteract it. It should also be fairly speed specific, so tuning it in at 32mph may not be perfect at 22.

You are right about the general idea of tuning, I used a hand file and took off very little at a time. You may think you won't want to do it, but drive the boat and then decide. For me, with how easily it turned with the new rudder, it was a must! If I let go of the wheel at all, it turned pretty fast to one side. Your old rudder was not only NOT perfectly symmetrical but it didn't turn as easily as your new one will either. I set mine pretty much neutral because I don't slalom ski through a course, ever, with my own boat. But I have driven "neutral" boats through a slalom course with strong skiers and it's a handful. It's way easier to keep it straight when it's got a little natural pull.

Anyway, put the rudder in and go for a ride, then decide what to do. And then if you do decide to grind or file, do a LITTLE at a time then re-test. It was a hassle but well worth the time, once.

[scottschmitt]

Thanks SquamInboards. It's pretty straight. I'll probably leave it alone for now. Some day it will start to bug and I'll start looking for a wrench again.

[korey]

Slightly bored waiting for parts to arrive, I watched some youtube videos on the subject, and this one brought to light a concept I hadn't thought about. Make sure your cable is adjusted such that there is still some angle between the arm and cable when the cable is at it's shortest. Allowing the cable to get in-line with the arm could allow the rudder to go over center, and hit the spinning prop! I had always just adjusted it so that there was equal rudder movement through the range of the steering wheel - no care about whether the wheel was straight or not. Discussed at 6:30 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbH6JorBZLc

[cadunkle]

I hope you're happy with the new rudder shape. I change mine out to the same as yours two years ago right away I noticed that the steering characteristics of my boat had changed. I wish I would have researched a little more to find the proper shape rudder.Good morning-
I know now what it is you have:
(1) SEF-1014 Rudder (13' off 90' Port) Direct Drive $354.00
(1) SEF-1102 Rudder Port $169.00
(1) SEF-1000-10S Arm $44.00

We can ship them out today.
Give me the ok and I will send them your way!!!!!!



April Ward
Production Coordinator
Southeastern Foundries Corp.
(336) 299-7211 ext#223
Fax: (336) 299-9591



Picture of this rudder? Is it the same shape as the factory Supra rudder? What type of port is it? Is it greasable with lip seals or is it a packing gland type port? Bolt pattern and dimensions?

[SquamInboards]

Slightly bored waiting for parts to arrive, I watched some youtube videos on the subject, and this one brought to light a concept I hadn't thought about. Make sure your cable is adjusted such that there is still some angle between the arm and cable when the cable is at it's shortest. Allowing the cable to get in-line with the arm could allow the rudder to go over center, and hit the spinning prop! I had always just adjusted it so that there was equal rudder movement through the range of the steering wheel - no care about whether the wheel was straight or not. Discussed at 6:30 in this video:


Great point, and I've actually seen this happen under hard reversing. The cause in that case was the clamp block was totally worn.... same idea though.

[korey]

Rudder arrived as planned, and went right in - no problem! For anyone doing the job on a similar boat, the flange on the outside of the boat on the original port was beveled all the way around it's outside edge on the surface that joins with the hull, but the new parts where small enough to sit flat without beveling. I wanted to find some 3/8-24x3" Stainless Socket Head Flat Heads to replace the slotted (for flat head screwdriver) flat heads that hold the port (and strut) into the boat, but it seems they're not very atainable. mcMaster-Carr doesn't even have them. I hate slotted screws...

Anyone have any deeper suggestions on where to adjust the steering range? Is my thought of equal valid, or should it be biased to either side because of prop wash? When I hooked the tiller arm back to the cable as it was adjusted with my old rudder, the adjustment was starboard biased by quite a bit, but I'm pretty sure the tiller arm was not perpendicular to the rudder (as it is on the new parts) on the original parts. I could be wrong there.

[wotan2525]

In case you want to dig back into this....

https://www.fastenal.com/products?r=~|categoryl1:%22600000%20Fasteners%22|~ %20~|categoryl2:%22600039%20Sockets%22|~%20~|categ oryl3:%22600042%20Flat%20Socket%20Cap%20Screws%22| ~%20~|sattr03:^%22Stainless%20Steel%22$|~%20~|satt r04:^%223/8%22%20-%2024%22$|~%20~|sattr06:^3%22$|~

[korey]

Yeah, it's (hopefully) never coming apart again... Given the amount of 5200 that I got in the threads, it's REALLY likely never coming apart again, LOL.

Looks like the advice on tuning above is correct, the new rudder is so friction-less and evenly weighted that the boat will dive off into a RH turn if you let go of the wheel! I read somewhere about a pull when you pulled the throttle back as well, and my experience is the same. It mad a huge difference in the boat!

I'll be slowly tuning it in by removing some material from the left trailing edge.

[Sdc77]

Same feeling for me. We now need to keep hands on the Wheel.
On my friend's modern Malibu, there is a rudder in the rudder to keep the boat inline :

17381

One another mods would be to change the steering helm for a no-feedback one.