1988 Supra Saltare - Couple Potential Repair Questions

[dbruesehoff]

Hi All -

Couple questions, just picked up a 1988 Supra Saltare and had it on the water today and noticed a couple things. It was really rough starting today for some reason, it started fine when I water tested it (only ran it for about a half hour). This would be it's first long ride this season, it started okay when I got back to my garage but had to use started fluid to get it running at the launch. It would sputter and spit and then at one point as it was sputtering out a cloud of smoke came out of the carb. Could this be a dirty carburetor issue?

Also, the belt squeals like a pig right after it starts, the belt is new within a season or two (so I am told). The belt isn't cracked and doesn't look worn. I checked the alternator and it spins freely with no resistance from the bearing, also pulled the water pump off and started it for a few seconds and the squeal is still there so not the water pump belt or impeller. How tight should the belt be, piano wire tight? Its definitely got some play to it, also noticed some belt dust on the front of the motor so I am assuming that is the issue here.

One last thing, the motor at idle has a small twich every so often at idle and low speed RPM, it doesn't follow the engine speed or rpm so I know it's not a rod or bearing wondering if the timing is off or distributor cap is misaligned? Anything I should be concerned about?

Otherwise it ran great the rest of the day cruises nice, engine stayed cool, etc.

Any help on these would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
David

[wotan2525]

Hi, David -- Small world. I'm in Hudson, WI and just sold an 87 Saltare to a Dave! While reading this thread I thought maybe this was the same boat but I don't think it is..... Different Dave!

I also had a squeal on cold start. I believe it's the water pump on the front of the engine that just needs to get some water in it to get things lubricated. That was my best guess, anyway. I never got it nailed down any better than that and it was always gone in 5-10 seconds.

As far as your rough start, I would definitely rebuild the carb. It's cheap/easy to do and then you'll know that isn't the problem. I'd also do cap/rotor, check the timing, change the plugs and plug wires. Basic tune-up stuff. These are all maintenance items so might as well take care of them now and know where you stand.

[dbruesehoff]

Hey Wotan - definitely a small world but not the same boat. I just grabbed this one in Michigan over the weekend.

Yeah I am planning to order a carb rebuild kit to see if that will help starting. Also noticed the water separator is looking mighty old so gonna order up one of those as well.

With regard to the squeal, I disconnected the water pump and started it up and it still squealed so it's definitely coming from the right side of the motor or the belt. I'm gonna pull the drive belt and see if the alternator has a tight bearing or something but at first glance it looks like it's okay. Also going to order a spare drive and water pump belt and replace and keep the old ones for spares.

The grey smoke was different for me, never seen that before.

[wotan2525]

There's the raw water pump and then also the circulation pump. The circulation pump is the one I was referring to making the noise.

[dbruesehoff]

Ahh I didn't realize there was another water pump on the boat. Where is the circulation pump located? I'll check that out when I get back in the boat.

[SquamInboards]

The circ pump is the upper-most pulley on your engine. As you look at the front of your engine, RWP to the left, ALT to the right, circ pump is on top (crank on bottom).

I've never owned a 454 but plenty of other similar engines and you're on the right track with the squeal. I would tighten up the alternator belt a little and see if it goes away. I know you're replacing them both, but I'd try that first just to see if the sound goes away. New belts will likely also "cure" the sound, but it will return if they're too slacked. I don't have a spec or anything, but "a little tighter than it is now" is my advice.

If the bracket for the alternator or raw water pump is a little bent, it can cause the pulleys to be out of alignment, which makes it harder to get good contact across the whole surface. Not a bad idea to sand down the V on the pulleys to clean them up a bit, if they feel rough at all.

And as others have said, start with a basic tune-up, clean fuel filter, some fresh fuel, and go from there. I'd do a carb rebuild only if the problems persist after the other stuff, but that's just me.

[dbruesehoff]

Thanks guys for the replies. I was trying to order some stuff today but it looks like I need more information off the carb and engine before I can do so and I am out of town so I am going to be stuck with a rough starting boat for another weekend but I can make due. I can probably get the fuel/water separator from an auto parts store so that shouldn't be an issue and try tightening up on the belt to see if I can get the squeal to go away. One thing I forgot to mention is the distributor cap and plug wires were all replaced last year I believe and they still look brand new, could timing be part of the reason for the engine twitch I am getting? I have never timed an engine before we have all of the equipment up at our cabin in the shop (my late grandfather had a small engine and boat repair business in northern MN so we still have a lot of his tools up there).

Another quick question, when I punch it on the water, how hard should the boat "pull"? It gets up and goes out of the water but doesn't punch as hard I expected it to and from 3/4 to full throttle it seems like there isn't much there, should it put you in your seat when you hit it from say half throttle to full throttle? I am thinking this is carb related but not sure? Curious to get your thoughts.

[SquamInboards]

- cap, rotor, wires, etc: Without taking any wires off it, just take a look at the cap (and rotor) to see how it looks underneath. You should be able to get it off just enough to see if the contacts are corroded at all. This can happen regardless of the age of the cap, so it's good to look at. Wires - pull one or two off and if the connections look good and clean, maybe you don't need to rush into that. Spark plugs are worth looking at too, and something you could easily get from any auto parts store I'm sure. There may be even be some specific plug recommendations from those on here with 454s... don't assume that what's in there is really what's best.

- belts could also be found at a local auto parts store.

- this is a pretty big boat and the 454 is "only" putting out around 330hp (others may correct me if I'm a bit off). It doesn't sound like you have significant issues with the carb, if you're able to throttle up and approach wide open without any major hiccups. Not to say it's not in need of some attention, but I doubt it's seriously affecting performance. Hard starting? Yeah that could be carb-related. A huge factor in hole shot and especially throttle response at speed is the prop. If this is running an original (or even 10+ year old) prop, you might want to spring for something new, CNC. Keep the old one as a spare. Poke around on this forum a bit for prop info, and have a look at the sticky thread on props (https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?15325-Prop-Specs-ONLY). But no single thing can make such a difference in throttle response than the prop itself (when the engine is running properly, that is). Running an older prop is a bit like running all seasons in the snow. It works fine, but the right equipment makes a massive difference.

- lastly, on top of a new fuel filter, top off the tank with fresh fuel if you haven't already. Oh yeah, not to open a can of worms here, but do you know if this boat has had ethanol fuel (E10 or E15) run in it? Probably by now it's a non-issue, but it crossed my mind....

[dbruesehoff]

- cap, rotor, wires, etc: Without taking any wires off it, just take a look at the cap (and rotor) to see how it looks underneath. You should be able to get it off just enough to see if the contacts are corroded at all. This can happen regardless of the age of the cap, so it's good to look at. Wires - pull one or two off and if the connections look good and clean, maybe you don't need to rush into that. Spark plugs are worth looking at too, and something you could easily get from any auto parts store I'm sure. There may be even be some specific plug recommendations from those on here with 454s... don't assume that what's in there is really what's best.

- belts could also be found at a local auto parts store.

- this is a pretty big boat and the 454 is "only" putting out around 330hp (others may correct me if I'm a bit off). It doesn't sound like you have significant issues with the carb, if you're able to throttle up and approach wide open without any major hiccups. Not to say it's not in need of some attention, but I doubt it's seriously affecting performance. Hard starting? Yeah that could be carb-related. A huge factor in hole shot and especially throttle response at speed is the prop. If this is running an original (or even 10+ year old) prop, you might want to spring for something new, CNC. Keep the old one as a spare. Poke around on this forum a bit for prop info, and have a look at the sticky thread on props (https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?15325-Prop-Specs-ONLY). But no single thing can make such a difference in throttle response than the prop itself (when the engine is running properly, that is). Running an older prop is a bit like running all seasons in the snow. It works fine, but the right equipment makes a massive difference.

- lastly, on top of a new fuel filter, top off the tank with fresh fuel if you haven't already. Oh yeah, not to open a can of worms here, but do you know if this boat has had ethanol fuel (E10 or E15) run in it? Probably by now it's a non-issue, but it crossed my mind....

Thanks for the suggestions.

With regard to the throttling up and getting out of the water the boat does exactly that without issue and no hiccups in acceleration from the engine. One thing it did do right out of the gate (within 15 minutes of leaving the launch) the boat quit as we were going through a channel at a very low speed, scared the crap out of me. I assumed it is/was the combo of old gas, dirty carb and having not ran much in the last year. I will check the cap and wires when I get home this weekend. I was actually planning to do plugs, I'll see if I can find some recommendations on the forum for replacements.

The prop is definitely original, there is a spare that he gave me, both are 3 blade props but the spare is new. I'll swap them out and see if that changes anything (assuming they are slightly different pitch as the same prop will bring the same result).

I filled up with fresh gas before taking it out so I can check the box on that. I am guessing he was running regular unleaded and from what I know that has some ethanol content as does most fuels readily available but I am not positive on what he was running.

I was actually able to get ahold of Skidim and was able to order the carb rebuild kit, fuel filter, belts and a couple other odds and ends so I am planning on give her a basic overhaul this weekend, pretty excited to see if any of these things fix the issues.

[SquamInboards]

That all sounds good. When you say the spare prop is "new" does that mean it looks unused? Or is it a newer-style CNC prop? I had a picture a while ago of an old "handmade" prop next to a new CNC Acme and the difference is dramatic to say the least. Sure, if the other prop is a slightly different pitch, diameter, or cup, it will affect the boat in some way. But there's nothing like a new CNC prop.

If this image works, it's from an old thread here that shows a direct comparison between the old and new props, same boat, same application...
http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a494/2500hd1/IMAG0386_zpsa142bf19.jpg

The only reason I ask about ethanol is that some places are still able to get (and/or some people go to great lengths to get) conventional non-ethanol blended fuel. The first time any "older" boat like this is run on ethanol, it can dissolve lots of old "varnish" that's been deposited by years of fill/drain cycles in the fuel system. It may be as simple as a fuel filter change to get over the hump, but others have had fuel lines collapsing, filters clogging multiple times, fuel pickups clogging, and clogged carburetors (jets or otherwise) as a result of the introduction of ethanol. As you said, this boat most likely had some ethanol fuel introduced to it a long time ago, but it's just a thought.

Good luck with the work you've got planned, and let us know how it goes.

[dbruesehoff]

Wow, I didn't realize the difference between the new CNC props and the old hand made ones. The one I have is probably not a new CNC prop but rather, one very similar to the original. I am definitely going to see if I can get ahold of one of those as that would likely give me a stronger pull out of the water.

I agree on the ethanol comments. I doubt this guy was going out of his way to get the good stuff but with that said a lot places I snowmobile to around the lakes by our cabin in northern MN only source the good stuff so there is a chance, a very slight chance, that this boat hasn't seen ethanol but my guess is it has. With that said, should I be running premium (91+) or just straight 87? The reason I ask is I can get 91 non ethy on my way out to the lake but I don't want to have to go through the carb tuning process as that can be a pain and have me chasing my tail. What are your thoughts on fuel grade? I thought about running 91 non ethy on the first tank but didn't for the reason I just mentioned.

[wotan2525]

Wow, I didn't realize the difference between the new CNC props and the old hand made ones. The one I have is probably not a new CNC prop but rather, one very similar to the original. I am definitely going to see if I can get ahold of one of those as that would likely give me a stronger pull out of the water.

I agree on the ethanol comments. I doubt this guy was going out of his way to get the good stuff but with that said a lot places I snowmobile to around the lakes by our cabin in northern MN only source the good stuff so there is a chance, a very slight chance, that this boat hasn't seen ethanol but my guess is it has. With that said, should I be running premium (91+) or just straight 87? The reason I ask is I can get 91 non ethy on my way out to the lake but I don't want to have to go through the carb tuning process as that can be a pain and have me chasing my tail. What are your thoughts on fuel grade? I thought about running 91 non ethy on the first tank but didn't for the reason I just mentioned.

Ethanol itself is not the thing that causes problems -- the problem is when ethanol sits/evaporates and the residue that it leaves behind. For this reason (and because I'm cheap and because the tank is 48 gallons) I always ran 87 octane through the boat. These are not highly tuned engines and the 87 octane never caused me a problem. Also, I used the boat frequently. There was never much time for gas to sit in the carb or in the tank and cause any problems. The last tank of the year would get premium non-oxy and a couple of cans of seafoam before I winterized. This put fresh gas into the carb and (hopefully) flushed out most of the ethanol before winter came and anything sat.

I

[lunaticseadoo]

Like everyone said here, start with the basics. A engine needs 3 things to run. Compression, spark and fuel. Start your way at the back of the tank. Make sure all your fuel lines are in good shape. If they are weathered and cracked they can suck air causing the engine to not run smooth. if they are cracked or questionable replace them. you can buy USGC approved fuel line at any local marine dealer. It's about $5 a ft. but way better than the standard fuel line. Make sure its 3/8" to ensure proper fuel pressure. Replace all fuel filters including the water/fuel separator fuel filter. Make sure you have 7 PSI of fuel pressure to ensure the engine not starving it self at higher RPM's. Check the distributor and rotor to make sure the contact points aren't warn and burnt. You can use a fine grit sand paper to clean them. If you have points in it. make sure the points are adjusted properly. If you leave the ignition on, they can actually weld themselves together. IF the need cleaning you can buy a point file at your local auto parts store. As far as the regular gas vs non oxy. Spend the extra $.75 a gallon to run the good stuff. Its going to save you money in the long run. The ethanol will not evaporate in the carb and cause hard start issues. I used to work in the Marine Industry for over 10 yrs. Number 1 issue that customers came in for was fuel related. A electric fuel pump can help as well. The boat I purchased had one. It was a lil under pressure for the engine. If you do the conversion, make sure to but the 610-1050 fuel pump from Napa. Its a 7 PSI pump that they 454 BB need. Stay away from Orielly's precision line. They are a lil under PSI and will starve the Engine for fuel. I did buy Wotan2525's Saltare from him. Made a few changes, But you will be happy with your purchase on you get the lil kinks worn out

[lunaticseadoo]

Your boat is in good hands. Put a different fuel pump in it that had a lil more PSI for the higher RPMS stumble. But the kids love it. The wife love's it. We ve had it on Minnetonka once and spent Memorial Weekend up at Square Lake with it. We will have a lot of good times with it.

The actual Dave that bought your boat =)

[wotan2525]

Your boat is in good hands. Put a different fuel pump in it that had a lil more PSI for the higher RPMS stumble. But the kids love it. The wife love's it. We ve had it on Minnetonka once and spent Memorial Weekend up at Square Lake with it. We will have a lot of good times with it.

The actual Dave that bought your boat =)

Welcome to the forum, Dave! We've been missing the boat but so thrilled that you're enjoying it...... And very happy that it ended up in good hands!!