2005 22V Rough Idle and Water in Oil!!!

[Sluggo]

It has been a while since I have been on here, but did a quick search and did not really find too much about my situation unless this is coincidentally two issues happening at once.

Boat does not get used very much the last few years :( but we do manage to get a long weekend in each year and maybe 3-5 day trips. I have done the winterization myself via instructions from this site, so it has had fresh oil, filter, and antifreeze in it each year without issues. The only thing I would consider being abnormal of the last few years is that when we surf, the idle tends to surge when in gear to circle around to get a fallen rider. We usually have a pretty big list give people and ballast. When weighted evenly, no issue with idle. Also noticed a little steam now and then from the exhaust while surfing. The temp gauge never rises and always stays in the normal range so I didn't give it a second thought.

Anyway, 520 hours on the original engine, annual winterization with oil changes. Cap and rotor, plugs, and wires were all just replaced along with removing and cleaning the injectors trying to resolved the rough idle condition when I noticed water in oil. I just got some more time today and did a compression test and the results are in the pick below.

So my initial thought was I have a blow head gasket somehow and when I went to confirm that with a compression test, it came back what seems to me as normal for a cold engine that has not run in three weeks. Or is that not a good assumption? Can an intake gasket cause a rough idle condition? Given the I will be at least looking at removing the intake, should I go ahead and tear down the heads and get them resurfaced and cleaned up to try and get my compression back up closer to 200 or just wait until a full rebuild is required with new rings etc...

Also considering doing all this work over the winter, so I have drained the block, the cross over hose and heater lines. Do I need to blow some air through there to force more of the water out? I usually run antifreeze through it but I don't want to run it again with contaminated oil. Guess I could change the oil and run it long enough to get antifreeze through it?

Any all advice welcome...

[Sluggo]

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[MJHKnox]

Did you try to add some oil in that cylinder that is lower?

Did you ever try the compression test warm?

Oil in the water might be from intake or exhaust. Those are the easier ones to look for leaks before you get into the heads.

I would change the oil and get some antifreeze in there.

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[gogger]

I have gotten some water in my oil before by having a lot in the bilge. When you take off it all goes to the rear and the crank pulley and belt spray it every where and it goes into the intake and if it sucks enough in it will eventually get some in the water. I think they say a 10 percent difference is acceptable in the cylinders? But yes try like mark says and put some oil in the cylinder and see if it brings that one up.

May want to try changing your map sensor. When I installed the new engine it was running poorly and I changed that sensor and it ran perfectly afterwards.

[Sluggo]

I have gotten some water in my oil before by having a lot in the bilge. When you take off it all goes to the rear and the crank pulley and belt spray it every where and it goes into the intake and if it sucks enough in it will eventually get some in the water. I think they say a 10 percent difference is acceptable in the cylinders? But yes try like mark says and put some oil in the cylinder and see if it brings that one up.

May want to try changing your map sensor. When I installed the new engine it was running poorly and I changed that sensor and it ran perfectly afterwards.

So I was able to get the pressure up to 180 from 150 after adding some oil. I have never noticed an unusual amount of water in the bilge or any evidence of spraying.

So my plan at this point is to remove and replace the exhaust gaskets as well as the intake gasket. Is there a way to test the MAP sensor before replacing it? I am thinking I have two separate problems here unless someone has experienced a rough idle or loss of a cylinder or two due to water in the oil???

[roosm]

Hi,

First of all, change your oil. Don't let it sit in there....
Also keep in mind, especially if you run in saltwater, that anti freeze is just as much anti-corrosion/rust.

I am not really an expert and I am sure someone else might chime in with more information, but for me this sounds like one issue leading to another.
My theory would be that somehow you got water in your cylinders. Especially if you run in salt water or brackish the most likely cause would be riser/manifold leak.
I guess this might happen anyways from stopping to quickly and water coming from the exhaust splashing forward through the riser and manifold. Cannot remember the name of this phenomena.
Should be more likely with one side weighted more heavily. Is it on the "surf side" of the boat you have the low compression?

So you got water somehow in your cylinders and down into your oil.
That means past your rings...

Getting the compression up when adding (a small amount of) oil in the cylinder usually means that the rings are worn/damaged. If I understand things correctly.
Since yours got +30 psi I would guess you might have damaged rings, possibly from getting water in the cylinders which can of course damage the rings. Especially if you let the boat stand a long time with water in the cylinders.

Though I am pretty sure I have gotten water, maybe even saltwater, in my cylinders and had it standing in the cylinder for long enough to get some pitting in the wall of the cylinder, but still have good compression.
I guess that oil could seal almost any very small leak, like from carbon build-up on your valves. Which also seems more likely if you 1) have some rough idle and 2) don't use the boat very often.

Couldn't the rough idle be a result of you getting water in your cylinders which also leads to water in your oil?
You did say you saw steam, as in white smoke, as in actually steam? Coming from water in your cylinders probably...

I would start by pulling the risers and looking for evidence of leak there. The riser gaskets are relatively easy and cheap to replace.

If it looks like water got in that way I would replace the gaskets and mount the risers again.
Then I would start the boat and run it until nice and warm. Then recheck compression. If the compression is good I would say case closed... As long as you did not get water in your oil again.
If not, then if possible get out on the lake an do some driving around.
Then recheck compression again (hopefully some carbon build up got knocked loose and the valves seal a little better).

If you don't get any more water in your oil but also don't get your compression up it is hard to say if a 25 psi difference which is what?, 15 %?, would warrant pulling the heads. For me, probably not...

Best case (or worst depending on how you look at it) you have gotten water in your cylinders and down your oil. Not really caused any problems (yet..) except for rough idle.
You have a little low compression on one side, might be related, might not be.
But this would probably mean that you should not run the boat the way you are doing while surfing or should not weight it as much or should not come of plane as quickly...

Best of luck!

[Sluggo]

Ok, so I pulled the intake and exhaust to try and find the source of the water intrusion. Here are some picks and the intake gasket looks good to me, almost new if you ask me. I will be replacing it but it does not appear to have any damage. The exhaust is old and crumbly, but for some reason I was expecting water from the block to be running into the exhaust and the gasket sealing it. My bad as you can see the ETX exhaust pumps water in from below the riser. So the question remains, how did this happen. In theory it could have been the boat was too low while surfing and it pulled in water when stopping or not running, but I have surfed for years and this has never happened. Is it possible that I used too much pressure the last time I ran it in the driveway on the hose? I use a flush pro and have never had the problem before, but I usually just use a half turn of the valve, immediately start, then shut down and immediately turn off the valve. I don't recall the exact sequence the last time I did it, but could it have filled up the exhaust after or before starting and entered the cylinders?

So obviously I will be replacing the intake and exhaust gaskets along with intake bolts. In theory this would not explain my rough running condition, but I guess I will put that on hold until I get things back together. If anyone knows how to test the MAP and CPS without shelling out $100 a piece for new ones, please let me know or point me in the right direction.

Oh, and should I be concerned about the corrosion on the port side push rods? Only happening on that side, strange.

Dave

[Sluggo]

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[2500HD]

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Take your head to a shop and have them pressure test them. This will tell you if you have a small crack or not.

[MJHKnox]

I agree with taking the heads to a shop.

Let them know what the plug looked like on the low cylinder.

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[Sluggo]

So if I am at 170-180 psi on all cylinders, doesn't that tell me my head gaskets, rings, valves are all good? Or relatively good for a 11-12 year old engine with 500 hours? Manual says min is 100 psi.

Would it make more sense to just take the intake manifold to get tested first given the gaskets look ok?

[roosm]

So if I am at 170-180 psi on all cylinders, doesn't that tell me my head gaskets, rings, valves are all good? Or relatively good for a 11-12 year old engine with 500 hours? Manual says min is 100 psi.

Would it make more sense to just take the intake manifold to get tested first given the gaskets look ok?

I think what one should do is do a leak down test.
Well of course taking the head to a shop would give even more insight.

If you haven't already removed the heads I would lean toward the why fix was isn't broken route, but to each his own. I cannot really recommend doing it, but I would lean towards it if it were my engine.
You need to figure out why you got water in your oil though.
If you think you got it through the air-intake for the engine by having a lot of water flying around in the bilge or through the exhaust by either having damaged riser/manifold gaskets or riding with that side of the engine too low, then fine. Probably this isn't an issue with the engine. Just change all exhaust gaskets and be careful coming off surf-speed to a stop. Might even have your spotter move side whenever a surfer falls. I have never surfed nor seen someone surf (except pro's on video) so not sure how bothersome this would be in the long run.

Depending on what equipment you have I would at least:
Remove all spark plugs, not doing this might lead to false results of test.
Remove the waterpump.
Put engine in neutral, and turn off any power to the engine.
Remove the Valve-covers.
Manually turn the engine over on the bolt behind the waterpump until you have both valves completely closed on one cylinder, doesn't really matter in what order, this would put that cylinder att Top Dead Center TDC.
At this point that cylinder should be air-tight and able to hold quite some pressure.

Attach a compressor to that cylinders spark plug hole and apply pressure. Best case use an actual leak down tester.
Otherwise at least apply the 8 bar pressure your compressor is probably capable of. Borrow a compressor if you don't have one.
I was able to use some of the parts that came with my compression tester to use it on my compressor and attach it to the spark plug hole.
Leave the compressor attached but not on, you would need to have like a compressor air-gun or something in between the cylinder and compressor so that you can shut of pressure.
After a minute or so detach the compressor. You should still have full pressure inside the cylinder so that when removing the compressor from the spark plug hole it would flow out air.
Otherwise you have a leak somewhere. Since it doesn't show up on your compression test it is a slow leak.
Then I might get worried at least worried enough to pull my heads.

Mike

[docdrs]

When you winterize , do you drain the block, and poke a wire thru the drain plug holes? It is virtually impossible for water to get in thru exhaust flappers. Water can get in if it is extremely high in the bilge .... you would notice this. What was the oil level with the water in it? Was it above the high mark? Could it be condensation from lack of use? Those plugs look aweful, they look rusty like they've been in water. Did the porcelain around the electrodes look chocolate brown? How old are they and did you check the gap on them, some look quite large.

[Sluggo]

I have installed ball valves on the block drains holes to drain the block. I don't poke anything up in there as I have always had good flow coming out both sides. I would have noticed water that high in the bilge and the pump running constantly to combat that. I did not notice the level being high, but I was pretty freaked out/disappointed when I saw the water. The plugs are brand new as they were one of the first things I changed. The dirt or rust color is the anticease grease or coating that I used. I did notice that when I pulled one of the new ones out the porcelain was bent at about a 10 degree angle. Not sure how I did not notice it, but it must work, as there was no change in the performance when I put the new plugs in. I gapped them to .06 per the manual and use 93 Octane whenever possible.

So update... I pulled the heads and had them reconditioned. The head gaskets looked fine, no obvious leaks or breaks. Installed new head gaskets and installed the heads with new bolts and torqued them in the recommended pattern to 65 in/lbs. Ran into a snag when installing the manifold. I had not thought to get new bolts and the old ones looked brand new. Well, now I know why you always go with new. When torquing to 30 ft/lbs, one snapped. Luckily it was fairly high up on the bolt so all I have to do is remove the manifold and vice grip it out. Waiting for some warmer weather to do that and picking up new intake bolts.

I have new exhaust gaskets but was going to wait until I had the top end together before re-installing those. New bolts there as well?

Picks below - 1st is after pulling head off. 2nd 3rd are cleaned up prior to heads going back on. Any idea where the discoloration would have come from on the rear of the block? Intake gasket residue?

[Sluggo]

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[Sluggo]

More progress today. Removed and re-installed manifold with new bolts. Everything went fine as I found that 30 ft/lbs was way too much torque. I have found several sources that said 30, but I guess the accepted more recent number is 11 unless otherwise specified by the gasket manufacture. Got to a stopping point when the sun went down and it was time to adjust the valves. I found a decent article on it but it say to rotate the engine. Does the raw water pump have to come off or can I grab on to one of the pully bolts and spin it that way?

Valve Adjustment. There is a specific sequence you must adhere to. Set the motor for #1cyl at Top Dead center, To adjust a valve back off the adjusting nut until lash is felt at the pushrod. Tighten the nut until all lash is removed. This can be determined by rotating the pushrods with your fngers. When all lash is removed the pushrod will stop rotating. When all play is removed rotate the nut 3/4-1 full turn.

With the engine in #1 firing position the following valves can be adjusted:
Exhaust 1,3,4,8
Intake 1,2,5,7

Crank engine one full revolution - The following valves can now be adjusted:
Exhaust 2,5,6,7
Intake 3,4,6,8.

Please let me know if there is another more efficient or acceptable way to adjust the valves. Right now it looks like #4 is at TDC.

Again, any and all input is greatly appreciated.

Dave

[Sluggo]

Ok, more progress today, but no results. Got everything back together and ready to start. Turned key a few times without engaging starter to build up fuel pressure, turned on water, low pressure then tried to start. Engine rotated through a few cylinders and then stopped. Tried one more time and it starts to turn over, but stops. No clancking or noises or hard stop, kind of sounds like there is too much pressure in a cylinder for it to keep cranking. Removed plugs and it turns over freely. Did I mess something up royally? Should I reset timing? I am pretty sure I did it correctly. Found TDC on #1 when adjusting valves and made sure distributor was pointing to #1 wire. Rotated 360, adjusted rest of valves and then that is where I tried to start from when everything was put back together. Suggestions?

[NorCalPR]

Try a fresh battery?

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[leetudor]

Are the valves too tight?

[Sluggo]

Ok, we have a winner. Apparently my battery that is always on a battery tender did not have enough cranking amps. I combined the two batteries and it fired right up. I immediately noticed there was no oil pressure so I turned it off. After a little poking around I found the ground had slipped off while I was moving other hoses etc around. So, I let it run for a few minutes with good oil pressure and plan to drain oil and change filter tomorrow just to make sure all the contaminated oil is out or at least diluted enough to not cause any damage.

So since it had not been running well and I did all this work along with changing out MAP and TPS sensors, I did not expect it to idle or run very well, and it did not. In addition to it running a little rough, the idle was surging between low RPMs (1100-650) and then finally stalled. Restarted and it would run for about 30-40 seconds with surging idle and then stall. I plan to switch my TPS back and see if that changes anything.

Any other suggestions on where to go from here? I guess worst case is I have it running with clean oil enough so I can get anti-freeze in it and store it for the winter.

[lively]

They make coolant pressure testers to test the coolant hoses , ect . Mine has a blatter for radiators and then it pumps up to 15 psi . If it happens again or whatever . You may consider pressurizing the block


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[Sluggo]

Looks like that is what I am looking at. I switched out MAP and TPS back to originals one at a time and there was no difference. Ran it for about 5 minutes and checked the oil. Looked good. Ran it for another 5 minutes and then sucked up 5 gal of antifreeze. Opened up heater hoses, block drains and cross over hose. Checked oil one final time and it appears there is a slight bit of water in there a there again. Going to drain and refill with fresh and new filter and leave it for the winter. Early spring I will start calling around and see about getting it pulled and block tested. What a huge waste of time and $500.

[lively]

You don't need to pull the block to pressure test it . One was is to use water and use the test kit I mentioned , or you can use a smoke and cap off all the water exits , the system is not pressurized unless you have closed cooling . And by that the water intrusion should be pretty easy to spot with 5psi or more of pressure . The heads have Allen core plugs I think (2) on each head . They can rust out and cause that too . And it's hard to find unless you use test mentioned above .


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[NorCalPR]

You don't need to pull the block to pressure test it . One was is to use water and use the test kit I mentioned , or you can use a smoke and cap off all the water exits , the system is not pressurized unless you have closed cooling . And by that the water intrusion should be pretty easy to spot with 5psi or more of pressure . The heads have Allen core plugs I think (2) on each head . They can rust out and cause that too . And it's hard to find unless you use test mentioned above .


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Bingo. More tests, less throwing money at it blindly...

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