Floor replacement idea's

[cowboy4]

I know there are a few posts on general floor replacement.
I was wondering what other choices I had besides fiberglassed and sealed wood? I've thought of trying aluminum but not sure about the cost?


Anyone tried to put ballast tanks/bags under the floor??



Also anyone renovated the interriors on some of the older boats more like the newer open interrior boats?

Maybe build the rear seat into a L to go up to the back of the drivers seat???


By the way I have a 87 pirata

[cowboy4]

Well i pulled the majority of the floor out today and would like the kick the previous owner in the teeth for their workmanship. Looks like the cut the center of the floor out and all of the supports that ran across the stringers.
They didn't seal any of the new wood nor did they seal up the stringers where they cut the old wood out. http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/cowwboy4/IMG00071.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/cowwboy4/IMG00067.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/cowwboy4/IMG00069.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/cowwboy4/IMG00070.jpg

Also I noticed their isn't very good drainage in the hull. The boat has had a cover over it and been out of the water a week or so and still have some water trapped between the outer stringers.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/cowwboy4/IMG00072.jpg


I was wondering what others thought of building ballast tanks in the floor using the stringers and some fore/aft fiberglassed boards? Also does anyone have pictures of how the floor should look or a in process pictures of a floor in this or a equivalent hull so I can rebuild it the same as factory? How far past the cap inner wall does the floor go?

Any help would be appreciated as I'm new to rebuilding boats.

[Salty87]

that's a sweet hack job. mine's just junk. i thought it had been worked on before but now i'm not so sure. i've found that both exhaust out lets weren't really sealed. when i removed all of the foam and dunked it on the ramp, they both leaked like shower heads. i'm pretty sure flotation foam isn't a sealant. drainage must not have existed way back. i had puddles of water on top of foam voids. all sorts of little suprises and holes that were never sealed.

i had started by removing all the flooring in the back and hoped the front was ok. no luck, all the foam was wet. so i'm going with a frame made of 4x4 posts. the top was heavier than i thought it would be, 600 lbs easy. i look forward to messing around with small things again like transmissions.

i've shopped around for tanks to put under the deck. they don't cost that much when you consider what the rest is running. i think the real obstacle is trying to limit the number of puzzles to solve while trying to get it all back together in better than original condition. there would be some re-design involved. still, use a pumpless system like calabria, and there isn't much to break if you get the floor compartments right.

yep, those are flat tires...needed every little bit

here are the most recent pics:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/overhead.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0264.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0268.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0269.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0271.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0272.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0273.jpg

[cowboy4]

Anyone have pictures of the cover over the built in cooler or how it's supposed to look. Also how is the tank floor separated and the bilge area cover separated from the main floor? Mainly would like some pics of how it came from the factory so i can rebuild correctly.

Any suggestions on how to get the foam to dry out or do I have to grind it all out and replace? The floor and stringers forward of their chop job is solid but the foam seems wet and I don't look forward to pulling up solid floor to grind out and replace flotation foam.

[Salty87]

if the foam up front is wet, the plywood is shot. once i got mine apart i was surprised how bad it was since you never get to stand on the floor up there. the foam won't dry out and if it did it wouldn't be good enough to use again anyway.

the ice chest cover was just a vinyl upholstered rectangle if its similar to my saltare.

not sure what you mean by tank floor but middle section of floor over the bilge was screwed down on mine with carpet layed over.

[BigTed]

I just joined the forum and it is good to see that other knuckleheads have decided to tear up and redo their old Supras so I am not alone.

Mine is a 1982 Supra Sport hat I bought new. I rebuilt the floor about 12 years ago and this time I pulled the motor and the floor.

The stringers and engine mount are rotted. Does anyone have any tecniques for replacement?

[cowboy4]

Salty any way you could post pictures of how it looks?
I'm really hoping I don't have to pull the cap.
I think the foam got wet from after I pulled the floor up. Had to go to bfe texas for work and when i came back the cover was off and had a few inches of water inside the boat.
Gotta love ok storms...

[Salty87]

uh oh, misery loves co. welcome, big ted.

pic of the ice chest cover? same as all the other seats 'cept for the shape. i can take one...

i've taken pretty good pics of my saltare. i don't think there were many differences between these boats.

cowboy, i hate to say it but water collecting in these old floors is a death sentence. they are cracked and pourous and the old foam ain't what it used to be. the area under my ice chest was the worst because it was the deepest. it weighed at least twice what similar sized chunks from the back weighed. here's the some of the bow...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0291.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0294.jpg

took 3 days of 80 degrees to get it dried good. the lowest point of my hull was separated from the bilge by that not so smart wall in the bilge. i'll be re-designing that, at least allow some drainage. i'm not 100% sold on putting foam back in, i don't have another plan though.

my plan is to use seacast to pour new engine mounts. the engine wasn't really screwed into anything, a few of the mounts just lifted up when i pulled the engine. shop vac sucked out about half of the wood and the old fiberglass is in good enough shape to use as forms for the seacast.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0154.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0289.jpg

i'm planning to get my motor mounts prepared, i need to get all the wood out and make sure the forms are all sealed up, and get the old stringers out this weekend. i have to get the rest of the old floor at the walls too. lots of grinding.

then shaping replacements, sealing, glassing in.

let me know if you want to see pics of anything else in particular.

i had a leak in my hull. i had thought it was a leak under the waterline in the exhaust for a long time. if your bilge pump used to run alot, i'd suggest taking your boat to the ramp if you can once the floor is out, before the stringers. mine was on the transom under both exhaust ports, looked like spider cracks from the outside. i'll seal it and lay some more glass there. it was thin.

[cowboy4]

I was just wanting A completed picture of the cooler as it should be like off the showroom floor. Also the area in the front where u have the air ducts mine doesn't. Is that just the pirata/saltare difference or did they butcher something else also?

What do you guys thing If i pulled out the stringers except the one that makes the sump area wall. Then build a angled tank to fit the hull and the top is the boat floor for a ballast tank?? Also how hard do u think it would be to make a foam stringer/support system like some of the new boats use.

[Salty87]

the air ducts were ridiculous.

when i was thinking of ballast i was going to put a tank under the air hose area and 2 on the sides of the engines like you're sort of saying. i decided to skip on it before i bothered with the idea of whether the floor would be supported good enough without the outside stringers. i'd be concerned, maybe thicker plywood would be sufficient.

using the floor for the top of the tanks would depend on your fiberglassing skills. you can get plastic tanks made.

[cowboy4]

No I meant it as the tank tops would be the support for the floor.

Also where did you cut the floor and is there a notch in the hull where the floor goes???

[cowboy4]

Salty got any newer pics of in process?

[cowboy4]

Ok looks like the motor's gotta come out also. Anyone have suggestions or hints on how to lign up the motor when re-installing???

[cowboy4]

One more question for everyone.
When I pulled the old stringers up it looks like there is a wood glue / filler connecting the wood to the floor. What is it do i need to use it or do i just use epoxy resin???

[Salty87]

cowboy

i've found time in the next couple of weeks to finally knock mine out. i've ground out the stringers on 1 side, cut all new stringers from marine grade plywood, and am about to install the new motor mounts.

i'm going with pressure treated 4x4's (really dry, this wood is about 2 years old) for the mounts. the mounts under 454's were bigger than under 351's, you might not have to mess with that. i'm going to build around the mounts on mine.


i'm not sure if tanks would support the floor enough when empty. would suck to do all this and have a problem with that. if you go with 3/4" ply in those area's it might help but then you'd have to account for the extra 1/4" in the stringers there. my floor was 1/2" and i'm putting that back in.


there was a notch where the floor went in some areas but it was more of a coincidence in spots on the hull. in areas where the hull is deeper the notch didn't match up with the floor...on mine. it's pretty obvious in the bow and on the transom where the floor was. everything needs to be hit with the grinder before glassing it back though. i've read that some people run string lines to keep the old floor height or rig frames to support the new stringers at the same height as the old. i'm going to use bulkheads instead of notching the stringers for cross-braces for the floor, all of my old stringers were rotten at the cross notches. i'm going to use the bulkheads as frames to support the stringers while they're bedded and glassed.

i kept the glass that encased my old motor mounts intact. the wood was so mushy there it was no problem and they are my reference point for the new motor mounts. i'm going to build around the 4x4 posts with the stringers.

i haven't installed a motor before, yet. the mounts are adjustable, the hole in the hull for the driveshaft isn't small, i just don't want mine to bottom out on the hull. i'm hoping to leave enough room for an oil pan drain line that didn't fit before.

i'm using poly resin, much cheaper and it's what builders use. epoxy is great but it will cost ya. builders use cabosil mixed in poly resin to make a thick peanut butter consistency to bed the stringers. you want to grind the old stuff out so you have a good surface to lay the new fiberglass...about 4-6" on each side of everything.

[cowboy4]

So where do I get the cabosoil? I'll prob just use the epoxy resin and be done with it. I noticed all they used for the motor mount was a 2x6 and lots of layers of plywood. I'm going to use a 2x6 then a few 2x4's all nailed and epoxied together for a lil more strength. Whats going to kill me the shop i have it in is at my current employers warehouse and now about to change jobs so time to look for a new place to work out of.

[Salty87]

epoxy is too expensive for me. i've spent about a grand on poly resin and all of the woven roving and other stuff so far. us composites dot com has just about everything including the tools.

i'm doing mine outside...drizzling today with freezing temps tonight and rain all weekend.

here's a thread i found on another forum. this guy is rebuilding a comp with epoxy.... http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20668

i've also read that some people just use 3m 5200 or even construction adhesives using a caulk gun to bed their stringers.

[cowboy4]

Well pulled the motor out today. Dang it's a heavy beast!!!!
Gotta fly out to Iowa Tuesday so i'll be lucky to get much work done at all before i take off. I made the mistake of going into the local boat shop to check out tower speakers and other idea's off new boats and fell in love with the natiques. Seriously how do people afford these new ones?

[cowboy4]

What kind of glass are you using? Also found out fiberglass doesn't burn the old resin will but the glass won't.

[wotan2525]

Salty --

Damn! That looks waaaaay too familiar. I didn't pull the cap off of mine, but I did gut the entire interior and replaced all the stringers and the floor. Took 2 years. I measured and drew a map of the engine mounts before I made the first cut.... when I put it back in, it was a bit of a hassle to adjust the mounts correctly, but it just involved jacking the engine up, adjusting it, dropping it, checking alignment to the prop-shaft coupler, jacking it back up and then finally drilling and tapping out holes. I used a generous amount of sealant in the holes.

It looks like you are rebuilding yours for life. I figured that mine lasted nearly 20 years the way it was originally built.... if I did an "ok" job -- but used better materials, it should last another 20. Hopefully I don't get burned by that.

I left the actual stringer construction and most of the fiberglass to a guy I found. He did the entire job for under $1500..... but hated me afterwards. I dont think he realized how much he had bit off.

Keep up the good work! You'll be rewarded at the end..... I was!

About the exhaust ports.... I used below-the-waterline sealer but I'm not sure if it will burn off.... I really, really expect that these exhaust ports will always leak. If you come up with a solution, let me know.

[wotan2525]

Oh also... I had pirtek make me up a remote oil drain.... I made the engine mounts just a hair taller so that I could fit this underneath. Left the line plenty long and it works great as long as I warm the oil up, first.

[Salty87]

wotan, good to see you around. i can see how you spent years on this but i'm so tired of having boat halves laying around.

i've finally finished my stringers. i have a few more items before the new deck goes on...still have to do the exhaust, i'm going with 5200. platform brackets will also get 5200.

new carpet and new rub rail are waiting. i think i've already used 20 gal of poly resin.

my mounts are a little higher too. i think my engine area cut-out isn't as wide as before, will make spark plug changes and stuff interesting. if my engine pan drain hose doesn't fit, i'm going with remote oil filter too.

cowboy, where are you at?

[cowboy4]

Ohio falls, traveling for work is getting old.


ohh you mean in the project? lol
Well the same spot the boat has been for the last month. I have the right side main stringer done except for the build up of layers where the engine sits.
Then I have to put the other smaller stringer in and add the bulkheads then on to the removal and replacement of the left side. Now that I've done the right I will better know how to remove the left to make it a easier job.

[cowboy4]

Well the right side is done and was hoping to be able to use the old wood from the left side to use as outlines. But just like the right when i pulled it off the hull it just crumbled. So back to lots of measureing and grinding/sanding.

Oh and I did end up using epoxy resin and high density filler to bond the stringers with and so far am very pleased with the outcome.

[wotan2525]

new carpet and new rub rail are waiting. i think i've already used 20 gal of poly resin.


Ooooh... .. how much did the rub rail run you? I'd love to replace mine. It's beat!~

[Salty87]

Ooooh... .. how much did the rub rail run you? I'd love to replace mine. It's beat!~

350 give or take a little. it's special order due to the length (we need more than 50'...length times 2 plus the beam). that's for both the rail and the insert though. if your rail is still good you can replace the insert for about half the price.

[sfields]

After a lot of reading, I am starting to realize that the pressure treated lumber that I have purchased to replace my stringers may not be sufficient??? moisture in the wood??? Is this a real issue? What should I use for stringers? I had planned to glass in pressure treated 2x6's for the center/motor mount stringers, and 5/4 decking boards for the floor stringers. Will their moisture content be of issue? Thanks for your help.

[Salty87]

After a lot of reading, I am starting to realize that the pressure treated lumber that I have purchased to replace my stringers may not be sufficient??? moisture in the wood??? Is this a real issue? What should I use for stringers? I had planned to glass in pressure treated 2x6's for the center/motor mount stringers, and 5/4 decking boards for the floor stringers. Will their moisture content be of issue? Thanks for your help.

i haven't tried to fiberglass wet wood but from what i've read of those using pressure treated, they dry it out for weeks first. you need to nail it to the walls or ceiling in the garage or something to keep it flat or it will warp as it dries. plywood is better for a few reasons, the biggest is that the grain is alternated as layers are added. gives it strength. marine grade or acx is what most use. i used 3/4" for stringers, doubled up for the main pair for 1 1/2". i did, however, use 4x4's (pressure treated, dried for months...had leftovers from another project) for my motor mounts. my original mounts looked like plywood and they were mush. i tried to improve a few things on the rebuild, not sure if this is one or not.

[wotan2525]

350 give or take a little. it's special order due to the length (we need more than 50'...length times 2 plus the beam). that's for both the rail and the insert though. if your rail is still good you can replace the insert for about half the price.

I think my rail is broken (unless there is a seperate "nose-cap") so I'd have to replace the entire thing -- how complicated/laborious is that?

Rob

[Salty87]

i'm sure it's easier said than done but it doesn't look too bad. go to you tube and search 'rub rail', there are 2 video's....1 for rigid rub rail and another for flexible. the factory used rigid rails, they're expensive. you can get the same rub rail shapes in flexible, comes in a big roll whereas the rigid comes in 20' sections.

[cowboy4]

Well she is back on the water now.
Went from bare hull motor in the garage and one stinger half done in the garage to being on lake eufala with 8 girls my best friend and me in 6 weeks. Lets just say I got to know the people at west marine very well and every spare moment possible was spent on it.
Went through 3 gallons of epoxy resin and don't want to think of how much poly resin.
Did the stringers with epoxy resin and filler for the bond and epoxy and chop / matte for the first layer then poly for the next two. Still have a few things to tidy up when it gets some down time. Mostly nicked the oil drain line right by the barb fitting but can't get my fat fingers in to the tight connection. I'll post the link to my photobucket folder when i finish uploading the pics.

[Salty87]

let's see those pics!

i had to go out of town just as i got the top half back on the bottom. i have a few more rivets, the rub rail, and installing the mechanicals THEN i'm done.

[cowboy4]

I'll try to remember to get some when I get home.
Been fighting with the electrical system and getting it up to par with the stereo that is about to go into it. I got lucky and my buddy used to compete in spl with his jeep and now bought a quad cab truck so we emptied his jeep and now what doesn't fit in the truck goes into my boat!!!

I built the floors as a solid piece from the bilge to the sides and the centers are removable and I didn't brace them enough so they kind of give when you step on them. So time to redo those when I finally get a day off the water.

[Salty87]

i did just the opposite...center sections aren't removable. i had broken the section behind the engine years ago and had to monkey something together to fix it. so, this time i wanted them solid. i'm going to add a large access hatch in the back, 20" x 30" i think. slipping the engine/tranny back in will be fun.

[cowboy4]

So your putting in the motor after the floor???
I wanted to make sure I didn't fubar the stringers so the motor went in right after the stringers were done. Then the floor etc.. got built around the motor. I actually built the center pieces kind of tighter to the motor then factory. The happiest point was being on the water the first test run hearing the 454 bark and watching everything take the abuse from the local lake and keep asking for more.

[Salty87]

yup. my engine has been stored about 40 mi. away from home/hull (no garage at home). the hull couldn't move without floor/top half. i took some measurements and made some marks in the hull and ran with it. fingers are crossed...

i'll be back next week to finish it up

"The happiest point was being on the water the first test run hearing the 454 bark and watching everything take the abuse from the local lake and keep asking for more."....oh man, i can't wait to try mine

[cowboy4]

Well one of these days i'll get home and be able to post the pics. What I did was leave the side fiberglass where the lower motor mounts where and just fused them in with the new so I didn't miss.

[cowboy4]

http://s123.photobucket.com/albums/o287/cowwboy4/

[DKJBama92Mariah]

Man it's gonna suck when I have to do mine. I know its coming, It's been getting progressively softer to the left of the motor box and the floorboard above the stuffing box is getting rickety from being taken off so many times. The vinyl has about had it as well; it's splitting along the seams. All in all, its getting close to time to take her apart and rebuild the interior. I'm pretty sure my boat has gotten heavier and slower over the years from all the water in the foam. We did a lot of watersports back in college and the floors were frequently soaked. I'm hoping I can get at least 2-3 more seasons out of it though. I've only put 20 hours on it this season.

What y'all have done looks great. I'll be hitting you up for advice in coupla years.

Are you replacing the foam or leaving it open? I'm very tempted to leave the space open, maybe put a hatch in the floorboards for storage below deck. Every little bit counts; storage space is at a premium on the 21 ft boats.