Leak Repair

[Okie Boarder]

I recently bought a 1989 Supra Sunsport. It had some damage done to the area around the shaft years ago (I have the original repair invoice from 1989). When I took it out on the water, I have a leak. If you look at the 3 pictures I've posted, you will see the entire repair area, the area near the strut mount that has a crack between the repair layer and original layer, and a shot from underneath where the shaft comes through the hull and the hull and shaft log flange meet. It appears water is coming in the space in between that flange on hull area and coming out the crack in the repair. The area where the crack is, is where water came in when on the lake. Poruing some water inside the bilge near the crack results in water dripping out from the area around that flange and the hull. Any thoughts or ideas on what it would take to stop the water from coming in and/ or fully repair this?

[Salty87]

welcome to the board

it's hard to tell from the pics exactly what's going on. in the 3rd pic, it looks like the repair was partially re-glassed and partially covered with just resin. you can see where cloth was used and right before the base for the strut it looks like resin was just poured on the crack. resin by itself is very brittle, if they skimped on glass it won't last long by itself.

the basics of the job are the same...grind until you get down to a solid surface. if the previous repair is questionable, you'll want to get rid of it all. re-glass making sure to lay the glass at least 6" past the damaged area on all sides. i couldn't see any damage to the hull bottom but it sounds like there is some.

since the base for the strut is right there, you probably want to remove it too and start over. that all depends on how extensive the damage is and how good/or bad the previous repair was.

have you ruled out dripping packing? shaft log leaking at the clamps? strut leaking? rudder leaking?

[myturndad]

c, i told you that you would get some help from these guys. i am sure that more will chime in.

db

[mapleleaf]

I would do whatever Salty recommends, his restoration pic's look great. Maybe one day I'll know Supra's that well too!!!!!
You anywhere near Idabel???

[Okie Boarder]

welcome to the board

it's hard to tell from the pics exactly what's going on. in the 3rd pic, it looks like the repair was partially re-glassed and partially covered with just resin. you can see where cloth was used and right before the base for the strut it looks like resin was just poured on the crack. resin by itself is very brittle, if they skimped on glass it won't last long by itself.

the basics of the job are the same...grind until you get down to a solid surface. if the previous repair is questionable, you'll want to get rid of it all. re-glass making sure to lay the glass at least 6" past the damaged area on all sides. i couldn't see any damage to the hull bottom but it sounds like there is some.

since the base for the strut is right there, you probably want to remove it too and start over. that all depends on how extensive the damage is and how good/or bad the previous repair was.

have you ruled out dripping packing? shaft log leaking at the clamps? strut leaking? rudder leaking?

Salty, yes it looks like it was kinda a hodge podge repair. It must have been pretty good because the repair is almost 20 years old. Should I grind down to the original glass all the way back to the shaft log? Do you think I need to replace the shaft log? Is is possible to seal just from under the shaft log with some caulking of some sort?

There isn't any noticeable damage underneath. No cracking in the gelcoat or anything like that. When on the lake, the water is definitely coming in from where that crack is near the strut mount point. At home, pouring water on the crack ends up with it dripping out around the shaft log flange, which is what is represented in the picture you see from underneath the boat. It doesn't appear there is leakage anywhere other than around that shaft log area.

[DKJBama92Mariah]

Welcome Okie!

Sounds like the whole repair has delaminated and water is running underneath it.

Salty is definitely your guy for fiberglass knowhow. The last fiberglass job I did, I got more resin on me than on the boat (bass boat not Mariah).

I'm afraid caulk ain't gonna get it done. Your next step is probably to go buy a grinder and a respirator, get to work and see how deep the rabbithole goes. You really won't know how bad it is until you get in there and grind down to good glass.

If you have access to compressed air you can also use 80 grit sanding discs on an pneumatic angle grinder. It will take longer and the discs will gum up pretty quick, but it gives you more control than a fullsize grinder.

Look on the bright side. At least you found it now instead of July, and you've got at least a couple months to get it straightened out.

[Salty87]

i think DKJ is right

i'd marine tex whatever cracks you find under the hull. you'll need to do some grinding and cleaning to them first. marine tex is an epoxy, cheap and easy. it's white too so you don't really need to mess with the color.

as for the inside, i copied this off rickr's comp restore thread:
https://forum.supraboats.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=260&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1225980215


you should take a look at that thread. he does great glass work and also talks about tools and supplies too. he used epoxy to fiberglass with, you might as well too. here's the link: https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?t=2855&page=2

harbor freight has a cheap grinder that works good enough. get some 40 grit flap discs for it. don't forget the safety equipment.

you'll have to get the shaft outta the way and check the alignment if you move the strut at all. there are instrux around here to check that.

you can do it.

[Okie Boarder]

Thanks all for the information so far. The underside of the hull is in good shape, there is no cracking issues there. Everything is around the shaft log / stuffing box area and the repair inside. From what I can gather, my approach needs to be to grind away the repair area and get down to the original glass and work my way towards the log / stuffing box. A few questions...

Should I remove the log / stuffing box and replace it, then rebuild the layers of fiberglass from there, on the inside?

How do I ensure there is a good seal around the log / stuffing box from the outside?

Would more pictures help in giving advice?

[Salty87]

where's wotan? i think he had to repair his before. i've never worked on or removed a shaft log.


how to repair really depends on what you find. lay a couple of layers of fiberglass down, add the log, some more glass. that part will be pretty easy. just work clean and you'll get a good seal. you need to be more careful with the alignment of the log when you set it. you've got a bit of room to work with though, doesn't have to be dead-center. give some thought to how you want to mark where it goes because you'll be grinding the whole area and then some more. i guess you could put the shaft back thru the strut once you're done grinding and use it as a guide while you lay the fiberglass.

[Okie Boarder]

How hard is it to remove the shaft on this year Supra?

I'm definitely going to tackle this myself. The estimates for someone else to do it are all coming in at $1000-2000. I am also posting this on wakeboarder.com and there is a guy on there helping me along too. I'll post pictures showing progress along the way. Any feedback would be appreciated. Hopefully this weekend, I'll start grinding away some of the repair area and start getting down to the original fiberglass layer to see what I have to work with.

[Salty87]

that's a toss of the dice. the shaft can get locked into the coupler pretty good. i've had to cut the shaft before. there's a set screw or 2 in the side of the coupler and 4 bolts holding the coupler to the tranny. hopefully you'll get lucky.

[Okie Boarder]

I am jumping into this repair with both feet.

So here's today's progress in pictures. A couple interesting things to note so far. It seems they never ground away the paint / gel coat that was on the surface. There seemed to be some kind of body filler like bondo in a lot of areas. There is a space behind the log that is not covered they filled with a material that seems an awful lot like caulking. WOW! What a mess I'm making grinding.

I'm going to need to figure out if there is a log that covers the gap or if I need to fill it somehow. If I need to fill it, that is certainly a question as to how.

Thoughts?

[Okie Boarder]

More pictures...

[DKJBama92Mariah]

Man, I bet your neighbors just love you right now.

[Okie Boarder]

Man, I bet your neighbors just love you right now.


:lol:

Yeah, one of the neighbors had some company stop by and they were all getting out of the car when I stood up holding the grinder in my bunny suit. They looked over at me and they were like :shock::?::idea::lol:

[Salty87]

I'm going to need to figure out if there is a log that covers the gap or if I need to fill it somehow. If I need to fill it, that is certainly a question as to how.

Thoughts?

i don't know if you can get a replacement log. i'd check with skidim.

to fill the gap you're looking at resin and fiberglass. grind at least 6" past the damage to get a solid surface to bond to. lay your glass down over the damaged area with successive layers of glass extending 2-3" further out each time. the more the better in that area. lay them all while it's still wet so they set as 1 patch.

poly resin will work, you might opt for epoxy for additional strength in that area though. it's a little more expensive but stronger.

[Okie Boarder]

i don't know if you can get a replacement log. i'd check with skidim.

to fill the gap you're looking at resin and fiberglass. grind at least 6" past the damage to get a solid surface to bond to. lay your glass down over the damaged area with successive layers of glass extending 2-3" further out each time. the more the better in that area. lay them all while it's still wet so they set as 1 patch.

poly resin will work, you might opt for epoxy for additional strength in that area though. it's a little more expensive but stronger.

Supra says no. I didn't try skidim, but I would assume their answer is the same. I still have some grinding to do. The leak was all around the log and it looks like the previous repair had the log set in with caulking or something, that has broken down. You can see the delamination of the original repair in the pictures and when I was working on it. The worst of it goes from the log back, but there's some all around the log. I'll be grinding away everything and breaking the log loose, then setting it back in with epoxy. Should I cover the gap first? What should I cover the surface with underneath where I fill the gap inside? Just let it be the raw fiberglass and epoxy? Gel coat?

I'm planning to use the MAS product and I plan to use epoxy instead of poly resin for strength. It's a little more water resistant, too, isn't it?

[Salty87]

yeah, epoxy is more water resistant. would only really come into play if you left it moored in the water. the reason i suggest it is that you'll get a better bond between the old hull and the new layup with epoxy than poly. for a small job, the cost won't be much more but will be worth it.

for plugging up the hole while you glass it in...something plastic. tape it to the hull so it doesn't leak. you'll no doubt get to grind the area some before you're done so don't worry about it too much. at least it's the bottom ;) the plastic will peel away. i wouldn't bother with gel coat but you can. gel coat is actually somewhat pourous too.

it's alot like painting...lots of prep. are you cleaning with acetone? the better you grind and pre-cut the pieces of glass...the easier the job will go and the better the results will be.

mas epoxy has a few instructional video's on youtube.

[rickr]

I got my materials from
uscomposites.com

There is not a lot of room for error with the "shaft log".
Here is a good post for engine and shaft alignment
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.waterski/browse_thread/thread/447eb621ecd9e64b/7dd0f8ffdaf03849?q=alignment&rnum=2&hl=en

[Okie Boarder]

Here's some more progress pictures. All I need to do now is get the rest of the grinding done around where the log was sitting, it's underside and right in front of it, then I'm ready to lay it back in. Any pointers?

[Okie Boarder]

More pictures...

[Okie Boarder]

One last picture...

[Salty87]

awesome...gotta be a good feeling seeing a huge hole in the hull like that huh? hahaha

i've only used epoxy on small jobs, some of this might be directed more at poly resin but here you go anyway...rickr used epoxy on his project, you might try pm'ing him for more details.

anyway, you'll want to bed the shaft log in thickened resin. if you haven't ordered your stuff yet, it's called cabosil. you mix it into the resin and the resin gets thicker so it won't run as much. it becomes more of a gel. there are other alternatives to cabosil though.

ok so bed the shaft log in the thickened resin really well, so it squeezes out the edges as you push it down. don't squeeze every last drop out though, keep a nice even layer.

then start the fiberglass process....wet the area with resin, lay the glass as flat as you can get it...no air bubbles. have all the glass pieces cut before you start and lay them out in order so you don't have to jack with it. your hands will be sticky and the clock will be running on your batch of resin...no time to mess with it then.

lay the pieces of fiberglass one after the other, don't wait for each layer to set. you'll get a much stronger repair and it will go alot faster.

make sure your fiberglass extends at least 6" past the repair all around with each layer of glass bigger than the previous by 2" or so. that way, each layer is reaching past the repair to solid hull. the entire area needs to be scuffed with the grinder and cleaned with acetone so you get a good bond...you should really wipe with acetone first so you don't grind oils deeper into the fiberglass as you grind.

you might grab a scrap of wood and try glassing it, it's not hard but it's a bit of a juggling act. would be easier to toss the wood than re-grind the hull and start over.

[Okie Boarder]

Salty...thanks! I've posted my progress in wb.com too. There is a guy on there that has done a bunch of restoration work too. His steps are exactly like yours, so the consistency of second and third opinions really helps my confidence.

I'm going with the MAS products. I'm using the colliodal silica as the thickener. Is that similar to what you were suggesting?

[Salty87]

colliodal silica as the thickener. Is that similar to what you were suggesting?

yep, that sounds like the same stuff.

[Okie Boarder]

Here's a few more pictures. I have almost everything cleaned up and ready to go. I'm trying to get to the one spot in the very center under the shaft log flange in the front and I'll be done with the prep and ready to set everything back in.

[Okie Boarder]

I also cut some fabric yesterday to simulate the layers of fiberglass so I could get a feel for how it might lay in and how much fabric I needed. Here's some pictures of that. Thoughts? Comments?

[Okie Boarder]

Couple more of the fabric...

[87SunSportMikeyD]

I have not been posting on your repair threads..because I have no knowledge to contribute! but I have been watching. WOW impressive work so far.

[mapleleaf]

Still learning, but from what Salty says, the pieces should keep getting bigger, looks good so far!!!

[Salty87]

okie, that's looking real good. the last layer is usually the hardest one with the biggest pieces of cloth. you might want to figure a way to lay the middle of it first and work your way out to the edges. won't be easy, you'll probably need a helper with clean hands. you also might need to notch it in a few spots to help those spots with big bubbles lay down flat. whatever works, really.

make sure you've gotten rid of all the grinding dust and wiped with acetone like crazy. your repair should be badass!

[Okie Boarder]

Thanks, I'm looking forward to getting it done and being able to water test the boat. Hopefully I will be finishing the prep, including the acetone wipe down, then epoxy the log in this weekend.

[Okie Boarder]

Here's some more pictures of the progress. I now have the shaft log bedded in the thickened epoxy and I am ready to lay the fiberglass to finish it up.

[Okie Boarder]

Here's the pictures of the fiberglass being layed and completed. Next weekend I plan to take it to the lake for the a water test.

[Okie Boarder]

A few more pics...

[Salty87]

great looking repair, okie!! something about the look of heavy cloth suspended in fiberglass, looks awesome to me.

[Okie Boarder]

Thanks, yeah it looks pretty cool. I'm tempted to leave it unpainted, but I know it will end up getting yellow / orange. Right now I can basically see through to the thickened epoxy. Also, the opening aft of the shaft log lets light through it right now so you can see a glow under the boat when you peek under there and it's out in the sun, like it was yesterday...LOL!

[mapleleaf]

Really great looking work, I'll know which post to look at when my slow leak turns out to be something other than the shaft packing!!!!

[Okie Boarder]

Wow, thanks. For me doing this for the first time, it means a lot to have y'all showing such respect.

[Okie Boarder]

Well, I lake tested Friday and all is mostly well. I have a slight ooze of water on one of the strut nuts and a little more than that off the rudder. I'm looking into what I need to do to repair those, but not freaked out about them. Here's some pictures from Saturday :D

[mapleleaf]

Cool, pic's look great....Glad you're "floating" again!!

[mapleleaf]

Just had a good long look at this one again, I'm gonna follow thse steps from my shaft log back to my rudder after September's thrashing off the Conbrio....

[mapleleaf]

Okie, looks like I found those pics....again, seems like I was looking for them in the fall too! The time has finally come for me to get back on the water...

[Okie Boarder]

OK, cool. Do you need me to PM you any still or are you good?

[mapleleaf]

Should be good, picked up all my supplies and I'm going to mess with the glass and epoxy this week to get comfortable.
Peeled the original strut backing plate out tonight and examined the under side of the shaft log, sure enough it looks worn so I'm gonna remove it all.
2 questions:
How to remove old thickened bed under shaft log? grinder and chisel's??
the dumb question, is CPES just the resin before I mix it with a hardener? I want to precoat the new strut backing plate ahead of time so I'm hoping to use resin...
The other thing is that when I removed the old backing plate it looked to be partially bedded in with something, a mix of epoxy and 4200 or something flexible, I'm planning on rebedding the new one the same way you did your shaft log, sound good?

holy hijack, I better start a thread!!

[DAFF]

Yes considering it is 2 years ago when Oke was a newbie around here. Amazing what the search button can find. Maple hurry up and get the old boat back in the water.....

[Okie Boarder]

To remove the thickend bed, you need mechanical removal...grinding, etc. I ground until I could get the log rather loose then just mooved it around to different points to reach everywhere I needed.

CPES is only for wood...it's an epoxy sealer that penetrates the wood. If you're just doing the shaft log, you don't need it. If you're going to replace the strut backing plate in the bilge, it will be made from wood that you will want to coat with CPES and then glass in. Coat the wood after you have cut it and dry fitted, like you would laquer a wood project.