Helpful Tips???

[z51spdr]

Hey...I just happened to stumble across this forum one night. I am taking an 88 Supra Mariah out for a test drive this upcoming weekend, weather permitting. I have been around boating for only a short time but I have always worked with cars and their mechanics so I have a good understanding of the engine and that sort of stuff. I was wondering if there is anything in particular I should look other than that though or things that I should notice about the way the boat handles. Any info at all would be really appreciated. Thanks

[Salty87]

z51, welcome to the board

good luck with your test drive. if you're comfortable with a wrench, these boats couldn't really be much easier to work on.

what you'll really want to look for is water inside the boat. the late 80's boats are right at that age where many of them need to have the floors replaced. not all of them, but the ones that were used hard and/or not covered do.

my advice is to poke around the interior looking for soft spots in the floor and water/rust stains anywhere in the engine area or bilge...unless you're in a saltwater area. under the seats, look for mildew or stains that indicate it could have been wet for a substantial period of time. the seat bases screw into the floor, if not done properly water can enter the plywood and you'll have problems.

also look carefully at the motor mounts and where they screw into the stringers. sometimes you can see rust from water seeping out, lose bolts that don't have solid wood to grab into, missing bolts....these area's are even more important than having the engine attached...these are the main stringers for the boat...the backbone of the hull.

look at the transom, where the swim platform bolts enter the hull....nice and clean or has some slathered silicone there? it's a common weak spot, it can allow water into the flotation foam, that's a huge project.

i've rebuilt one of these things, not fun. be very picky with what you see...i won't buy another used boat with a bilge that looks like it hasn't been cleaned since the day it left the showroom floor. if the previous owner couldn't do the little things, didn't care enough...they didn't care about the big things.

too many boats for sale nowadays to settle for that. unless, of course, you want a particular model and don't mind tearing it down to fix it back up.

[z51spdr]

Thanks for the info. I have had the chance to look the boat over on land. The floors have been replaced but the guy selling it didn't really know much about the stringers. He said he just took it to the shop and said fix it and a couple months later he knew he got a pretty hefty bill afterwards. Do the stringers typically get replaced when the floors do since you obviously have to remove the floors to get to them? Also is there anyway other than just where the motor mounts are to check out the stringers?

Also, there is silicone slathered mostly around one side of the swim platform so I would assume it was leaking like you said. Is this something that is pretty difficult to do or what does it involve? I am pretty good at dissassembling cars and getting them back in working order so I don't see that a boat would be too much more difficult. Is there a lot of cost in materials to fix this? Or is it more that its just a pain to do?

I am looking at a cost of around 10k for the boat. Is that something that sounds reasonable? I had a friend by a similair year and model and she paid that for hers then had to turn around and have the floors completely redone along with needing all new vinyl. This boat has brand new vinyl in it and since the floors have been redone, the price compared to hers seems reasonable but I really don't know how to price boats other than looking at NADA. I will try to post a few pics of the boat as well.

Thanks again for any help.

[Salty87]

you seem alot more aware of some real potential problems than most first time buyers, you won't regret that.

rot can be limited to the floor if it's caught in time. that's more likely when the seatbase screws let water in and the hull is sound. if there's been a significant amount of water in the boat from being uncovered or a leak, the foam gets saturated and everything will need to be replaced IF you're doing the job the 'right' way. i'd be surprised to see someone who doesn't know the details but pays for the job to be done the right way, but that's just a hunch. the caulk being left behind helps confirm this. maybe the caulk is after the floor repair? either way, if water is getting to the foam the new floor doesn't mean much.

fixing the platform isn't hard, none of this is. it's the hours that add up. the only thing hard about fixing the platform is taking the gas tank out and probably opening a hole in the floor to properly add a backing plate and nylock nuts. glassing it back up isn't hard, not at the top of my list for fun but it's way more expensive at a shop than it is difficult.

if the bilge looks like its got 20 years of grime, the stringers weren't replaced (properly at least). you might see a line in the bilge (fore to aft on both sides of the engine) where the new fiberglass overlaps the original hull if there was stringer work.

other than that, try to stick your head or camera as far forward and back as you can. under the gas tank on either sides of the rudder is a common spot for stringers to delaminate. if you see any holes that aren't filled/sealed, that's real bad. people often add or remove things and don't use sealant.

i'd love to think my 87 saltare would get me $10k (new floors/stringers, rebuilt engine) but in this market that sounds high to me. you'll never recoup the cost of new floors if you pay someone to do it, sounds like he's trying to.

where are you located? they go for more in some areas

[z51spdr]

I really can't tell you how much I really appreciate all the info. I probably aware more because of my friend buying a similair model and having to turn around and do some major repairs to it afterward.

You said if that silicone was due to water leaking in generally and that it was a bad thing if it got into the flotation foam. From what you described it doesn't seem like a big deal to me to fix the swim platform but would that foam also need to be replaced or would it just dry out?

Also is there anyway to check the stringers under the gas tank without actually removing the tank? I can't picture in my head how much room was around the tank since I looked at it last. And for some goofy reason I didn't even think of sticking the camera in the bilge to see.

I am actually in Nashville, TN. I doubt the value would be that much higher here. The guy did say that he was actually trying to just get some of his money back out of the floor repairs and vinyl work.

Also do you know of any sites online that also go into detail or have repair manuals available for this boat?

Again thanks a ton for all the info. I definitely have some other things to look at now.

[Salty87]

i grabbed this pic from one of mapleleaf's threads... https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?t=3587

https://forum.supraboats.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=360&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234747899

if you look under the gas tank (under the floor too) on the side of the stringer there's a dark spot. mapleleaf said this was just dirt in this pic (the rudder assembly gets greased so that's not hard to believe) but the fiberglass often starts to peal away from the wood back there. try to look down the holes where the exhaust pipes go under the floor, another common problem area.

there's a removable section of flooring behind the engine, or at least there was from the factory. if he'll let you remove it, you'll get a great look at the stringers and rudder assembly. you'll have to remove the rear seats and bases to get it out though.

wet foam is of particular concern because it never dries out. it holds moisture and turns your hull into a science experiment. the caulk itself isn't a definite sign of a leak or wet foam. you'll probably want to track down a moisture meter...i've never used one but if you get into that boat for $10k and then have stringer issues, yikes.

caulk shouldn't really ever be used on a boat, a sign of a possible problem and possibly a cover-up instead of a repair. or, at least the previous owner thought there was a leak...you see where i'm going with this. there wouldn't be any if there wasn't a problem somewhere, there are much better sealants to use instead of caulk too. a shop shouldn't use it.

supra's are made in TN. there are a few shops around there that re-do stringers and floors...maybe if you can find out who did the work they can tell you what they did?

there isn't too much online about these older models. skier's choice owns the brand now and although they're nice enough to support the old boats as best as they can, we're on our own for some of it. skidim has a manual but i didn't think it was worth the paper it was printed on. go to http://www.correctcraftfan.com/reference/#Engine , they have some PCM manuals posted there that cover the engine and i think transmission too. PCM (pleasurecraft marine) marinized the engines supra used back then. they're still around at least.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

check blue book value at nada.com. My guess would be between 5-8k. If it is in excellent running condition with no cosmetic or mechanical problems it would be 7.5k. That is pretty common for my model a 87 SunSport.

If you want to see the stringers another easy way is to remove the rear bench seat. The top of the seat has a couple screws and the bench screws to the floor. 5 mins and then you can lift the whole thing up and look at the rear floor, under the gas tank, everything.

Salty who in their right mind cleans a bilge out? :) :p

[z51spdr]

Guys, thanks for the info. I am finally getting the time to post a few pics of the boat. There is a small gash on the front bow where it looks like the boat had been brought up on the shoreline at some point but it is not leaking. The boat is also coming with a 'ski boom' I think he called it, life jackets, anchors, weight bags, a bimini top, and an old but decent pair of skis and a float.

[Salty87]

looks pretty clean from those shots. trailer is a little odd, says supra but there's no cross-bar under the prop?

when are you taking it out?

[z51spdr]

A few more

[z51spdr]

Supposed to take it out this Saturday around 2. The weather is supposed to be beautiful. As far as I know it is the trailer that the boat came with but then again it's over 20 years old so who really knows.

[mapleleaf]

I agree with Salty, it looks clean and the trailer is definitley odd, but looks to be in good shape..
The engine compartment looked pretty unkept and the carpet clean?? There was also what looked like a piece of bracing behind the engine?? any reason?
Is this boat clean on the outside and who knows on the inside????
I might be wrong those pic's do make it look good, interior anyway...
How big is the Mariah, my conbrio is starting to feel real small!

87mikey, I gotta clean that bilge it's long overdue!!!

[Salty87]

looks like that bracing might be the plywood used for a new engine box frame?

i'd rather not see all of the rust. if you were in a saltwater area that would be normal. it could be leftover from before the floor job but it looks like there's been a bunch of moisture under the engine cover for some time. that's not a top-dollar picture, hopefully you can use that as a bargaining tool if you get to that point.

[z51spdr]

That bracing like Salty said is just part of the new engine frame box from where the floor was replaced. The carpet and vinyl are all new and the inside looks awesome. The outside has a couple small scratches on the bow where it rubs on the trailer but that is because the wood and carpet need to be replaced on the trailer. There is also one small gash towards the bottom of the bow where it has been beached but it is something that can easily be fixed with fiberglass or epoxy. It is 21' long and holds about 8 adults I think so plenty big enough for a few friends.

Is it just me or does the pic of the wake plate kinda look like it is bent? I hadn't really noticed it before but while looking over the pictures again I have. Maybe it is just the way it looks in the picture.

[mapleleaf]

if it's an '88 my guess would be that the plate has seen 20 years of use and you're looking at deflection or fatigue, I think a lot of 'em probably look like that.
Looks like whoever did the interior knew what they were doing and possibly whoever did the floor as well. Extra bracing never hurt anything!
I hope it drives/runs as well as it looks.....and I'd still wanna take a good look, as Salty says, as far foward and backward in the bilge as humanly possible!
Good Luck!

[Salty87]

that's not too uncommon. the plate might not be adjusted quite evenly too.

i agree, that interior looks sweet. my vinyl is still original, starting to show it too.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Hey z51 looking at your pics from before some people remove the prop guard. It scrapes when you go over a bump or small mound/hill. I wouldn't recommend removing it though. Brass is soft and expensive!

Looking at that rear ski locker, dang that thing is huge! I bet you could put a big sac in there, check it out to see if it can hold weight or if you would have to remove or add support.

Only thing with these Saltaires is that they are wide-bodied which generally means you need more water weight to sink it and get that killer wake. You may need 2k lbs but that's not a prob for that boat.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

I also have some small scuffs/scratches on the bow hull. I'm pretty sure it's from loading the trailer. It's okay to drive it all the way onto trailer with prop engaged. Just don't come in too hot! :)

Sometimes it needs a little juice to get ALL the way on, I think this is when the trailer needs to be adjusted on the ramp (further in or out).

[z51spdr]

Ok, so I took the boat out for a test drive today. It ran great best I could tell. Didn't hesitate or stall or spit and sputter or anything of the sort. It definitely has a lot of power. The only thing I had a problem with as far as actual running was that the oil pressure and water temperature sensors did not work. The guy said this was more than likely due to him having to work on the wiring to get his radio working. He probably unhooked a couple of wires and just needs to be fixed. That's not a big deal for me.

I did take a few pics of the bilge to get a look at the stringers and also of the gash in the bow and the siliconed swim platform. Let me know what you think. And there was also a small amount of water in the bilge which can be seen in one of the pics in the background of the motor mount. Not sure if this is normal or not. Let me know what you think about any of this stuff. I definitely like the boat but dont think it is worth 10K. Thanks.

[z51spdr]

So here is the pictures of the outside of the boat. The gash in the hull I think is where the water is coming in at that was in the bilge which might make sense. It is about six inches long or so.

Also the pics of the swim platform are of the right and center supports. The left support looks fine and appears to have only the silicone on it from the factory. From what I have read, I would assume someone probably hit the dock and broke that one side loose or something to that affect possibly.

[mapleleaf]

Looks pretty good to me. You'll want to hear from the experts here, but That bilge area looked undisturbed for the most part. There really shouldn't be any water in there, so you'd wanna know where it was coming from pretty quick. Rain, wet swimmers, leaky shaft packing.....
The piece of wood that the wiring harness is passing through looked slightly water damaged and unprotected, wonder why?
With the conversion to Can. currency I'd be tempted to pay 10k, that might put you in around the 8k mark or so... That's a tough one....

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Wow that gash is huge I didn't know it went all the way though the hull! Thought it was just a scratch. I would be wary of that swim platform bracket. It's not a deal breaker unless water has gotten in..

[z51spdr]

Well, the guy said he took it to a fiberglass guy and said he could fix it for around $300 - $400 so I am not so concerned with that cause it will be a fairly simple repair considering some things.

What worries me is just what you said about the water getting in around the swim platform. The guy that has it now has no idea what happened to it since it was like that when he got it. Looks like someone probably caught the edge of a dock with the platform and yanked it loose. From what I could see there didn't appear to be any signs of fiberglass repair so I dont think the platform bracket was pulled through but maybe just loose enough to let it leak some thus the mounds of silicone.

Like I had said previously there was a little water in the bilge. Maybe a cups worth or so scattered throughout the whole area. Not sure if it is coming in through the gash in the bow or if like mapleleaf said it could be the shaft packing (have no idea what that is). One of the pictures I took towards the shaft area looks like it had water on the bottom side of the floor. I am thinking maybe it could have came in around the shaft and spun up onto the floor??? :confused:

I am really wanting someone to say thats a great deal and there is nothing majorly wrong with it so I can buy it without worry. :D But I really appreciate all the honest info that everyone has given me cause it is stuff I would have never known to look for.

[mapleleaf]

The backets on the swim platform certainly give way to some concern, my platform quick releases off of the transom, I haven't seen one bolted directly like that. I'd be worried about damage to the transom more than anything.
The shaft packing is the gasket style sleeve that stops water entering around the drive shaft. Salty knows more about this, but when they are old can let a bit of water in, only way to know is out on the water.
I'd be interested in having all the fiberglass fixed at once, I'm no pro when it comes to this. I'll be doing some on the inside of my boat, but for the exterior might be good to ahve a shop do it.....

[87SunSportMikeyD]

I'm really not sure where the platform brackets would leak to. If it is the bilge, great. Fix the issue, get on the lake. If it is into the stringer/foam then you're in trouble.

Here is a pic inside the ski locker with the gas tank pulled maybe it shows something useful? I would call Supra.

Also maybe if you could get under the bench seat or under the ski locker compartment you could see something..

http://photos.wakeboarder.com/data/3490/skilocker.JPG

[z51spdr]

Well I called Skiers Choice and they were very helpful and knowledgeable. If any one has any difficult questions I would definitely give them a buzz. Anyhow, I asked them about the swim platform and luckily enough they said all I would have to do to fix it is to take the plastic bin above the gas tank out. From there I should be able to get to the brackets on the backside of the platform. And basically unbolt it, clean up all the silicone and gunk, put a new bead of silicone down, and tighten it back up. Looks if it leaked much it should have leaked into the bilge area as well and not into any of the foam. :D

Now I just have to get in touch with the guys that did his floor and check on the stringers and get an estimate for the gash in the hull.

[mapleleaf]

Could there not be some fiberglass damage behind that one bracket?????

[z51spdr]

Potentially yes but it just depends on why it was repaired. If it were caught on the edge of a dock and ripped out I would expect there to be signs of fiberglass repair both inside and out but the original supra logo is still on that section of it even though its been removed from the rest of the boat. Not to mention that if someone was capable of fixing that fiberglass without leaving any signs of repair, I doubt they would leave that cruddy of a silicone job behind.

I suspect maybe they just had too much weight on that one side from people standing on it or using it as a diving board or something and it just made the area start to leak some on that one side and rather than putting the effort into fixing it correctly, they just threw some silicone on it. Again, just my theory since the guy that has it now has no idea what happened to it since it was like that when he got it.

[z51spdr]

Also on that small amount of water that leaked in the bilge when we took it out on the water. The pic below is underneath the floor looking towards the rear of the boat around the driveshaft and all. It looks to me like the underside of the floor is wet. Since the boat obviously didn't get flooded while we were out and no one was swimming, is it possible that if the shaft packing is leaking that the water could have been spun up on the floor and get everything wet? I am pretty sure the water is either coming from there or from the gash in the bow but not sure which and I dont know that I will get a chance to take the boat out on the water again since the guy lives a decent drive from the lake and is having transmission problems with his truck.

[mapleleaf]

You should know I'm no expert on this yet, but learning from my own 20 year old Supra quickly!
The more I look at those photo's the more I can't understand why there's unfiberglassed wood beneath the floor in the bilge. I can't say anything about the restoration already done on that boat, but I'd be skeptical. 10k definitely too much. I paid 3k Canadian for a slightly newer, slightly smaller conbrio last august that with a doubt needed an interior and some tlc, compression test was good and away I went.
All told before a tower and some bells and whistles, in the water with a new interior this summer I should be in around $6500- 7k range, oh and that's Canadian. Bigger boats do cost more, but I'd be trying to negotiate or I hate to say it, low ball... see where it gets ya. Keep looking and let him sit on it a while longer......

[Salty87]

the swim platform has a nick in the trailing edge, looks like they smacked something.

that's pretty cool that you can see the stringers and muffler in your sunsport mikey. z51, if the boat you're looking at is like that you can't lose on that fix. some of them have all of the hardware under the floor though, like mine.

i see what leaf is looking at, why is there unfiberglassed wood under the floor? some of it looks like wet dark wood...saturated maybe.

the gash is ugly. there's alot of fiberglass in that part of the hull but if you do have a leak...i'd run. you've got wet foam which means that someday the unfiberglassed wood will rot.

if this guy won't come down a couple of grand on the price, i think he's making the decision for you. poke a finger or screwdriver up that gash (can i say that on here? ha!) and see if you've got solid glass or foam. also see if you can see the stringers and platform bolts like in the picture mikey posted.

[Blackntan90]

WOW! That interior looks really nice! And the gel is shiny too!

[87SunSportMikeyD]

I had my rudder seal leak and a couple times the bilge got really full before I noticed. Yes, the driveshaft spun in the water and sprayed the water EVERYWHERE. Soaked my starter and needed to be replaced.

It is really awesome to hear that any swim platform leak would just drain to the bilge!!!!!

[mapleleaf]

Hey Mikey, what'd you use to fix the leaky rudder????

[87SunSportMikeyD]

We pulled the rudder. It was sealed by two o-rings. One was gone. We took the other to NAPA auto parts, or anywhere, they have a box of o-rings. Standard size. Popped it in, and put the rudder back in.

Then we went out and got grease gun fittings (small size gun tip and small zerks (greasse ports). The rudder as well as rudder arm have multiple zerks we filled with grease. A little too much as the extra we found in the bilge. Greasy. :)

Oh we also noticed the shaft on the rudder (??) was worn a little smooth in one area making a flat spot. We sanded it just a bit to round off the flat.

No leaks so far!

[mapleleaf]

thanks, I got a slow leak somewhere, and I won't know 'til I'm on the water, need all the info I can get before I get out there.....

[87SunSportMikeyD]

When I opened the floor access panel behind the engine box, I could look back with a flashlight while we were on the water. When someone turned the wheel, you could see a thin trickle of water coming from the rudder.

[mapleleaf]

exactly what I'll be doing this May. I may take it out stripped down, no interior no floor panels.......For that high quality rough look!