Wont fire.

[chautauquasun]

So I took the day off work today and traveled north 2 hours to start getting the boat ready for the summer. Spent the day washing and cleaning the interior and got about half the boat cleaned with rubbing compound and waxed.

I didnt get to spend a lot of time with the engine today but did try to get it to fire. I bought a new electronic ignition, plugs and fuel filter but did not install them yet. I tried to get it to fire today with replacing any parts to try and establish a baseline before I start adding new parts. The engine rolled over fine but I dont think I am getting spark. I sprayed the carb with starting fluid but it just would not fire...would just crank.

I know on the old I/O I used to have...I would have this same problem every year adn would replace the coil and points and it would then fire. What do you guys think...should I replace the coil and install the electronic ignition and plugs and try again? I didnt check the spark at the coil. Any other ideas on things I should try?

thanks

[michael hunter]

I would want to know why it doesn't start now or you may be chasing ghosts by adding
unknown parts to an engine without a baseline to fall back on.
Check for spark at the coil wire and the plug wire. If no spark check for voltage at the
+ side of the coil with a test light key on it should be on. Then move it to the - side
or the coil and crank the engine light should flash on off. If it does the primary ign is
OK check the cap and rotor. If not its the points,condenser.

[Salty87]

isn't that the most frustrating thing when it won't start?

is your battery in good shape? turning it over strong?

i'd consider throwing some new points in it if you think that will get it going. i think you made the right decision to hold off on the pertronix. no point in trying to diagnose 2 issues at the same time. points are cheap, having a spare around isn't the worst thing to have.

check spark at the coil and plug(s).

there are a few threads around with detailed procedures...here are some... http://supraboats.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=3860&highlight=fire

if you search there's more out there.

[chautauquasun]

Thanks guys...yes it is frustrating. I didnt have much time to mess around with it. Thought maybe I would get lucky and try to fire it up.....what was I thinking. The battery seems to be an issue from last year as well. I am going to try and get the battery fully charged and new cables for next go round. It cranks...but not as fast as I think it should...it seems to die/run down pretty quickly. I have some work to do. thank you for the tips on diagnosing the problem.

Dan

[knoble]

Try getting a points file or a really small file (that's all a points file is). File the points a little on both contact points and it should fire right up! My 86 would do that a couple times a year and especially at the beginning of the season. I used to keep a points file aboard just for that! I recently switched to electronic distributor and hope those days are behind me!!!

:cool:

[87SunSportMikeyD]

How old is the battery? Might just want to replace it if it's more than a couple years old. Also new battery cables and terminals. Tighten with a wrench.

[bellsons]

why not do away with the pionts and install an ignitor.
my 454 starts with a bump. its a 1984 w? a holly.

[chautauquasun]

why not do away with the pionts and install an ignitor.
my 454 starts with a bump. its a 1984 w? a holly.

Actually I have an ignitor to install but didnt want to install it until I had it running with the points...just so to establish a base line before installing the ignitor. Did want to install the ignitor...then not have it run and wonder if it was something with the ignitor.

I think my biggest issue is the battery like mikey said. I am going to buy a new one with high cranking amps and also run some of the diagnostics that everybody gave me. I think that is also why I was having problems getting it started when it was hot last summer...makes sense to me now.

Unfortunately like I said I live 2 hours from the boat so I have not been able to go back at it again. Will be up there next weekend....with the new trailer!!!!! yeah and hopefully a new boat lift as well. I will be sure to let you guys know the status...and probably will be looking for some more advice.

[chautauquasun]

Spent Sunday Morning working on the boat to get it started. Traced the problem to the coil. Replaced the coil and filed the points, cleaned up the distributor cap...add some new gas and it started right up. Threw it in the water and ran it for two days...it seems to be running well. Next step will be to replace the new fuel filter, new plugs and install the electronic ignition.

Couple of things though that dont seem to be working as well as I would like. The steering is very tight and hard to turn. It will turn to both sides but it seems to take more effort than it should. Is there any kind of steering assist on this that may need replaced? Or does it just need to be greased. It seems to turn smoothly but just takes a lot of effort.

Also I am still having problems getting it to run a low speeds. It seems to idle pretty well in neutral after the engine warms up...but a low speeds or going from neutral into gear like when taking off with a skier...I have to kind of feather the throttle so that it wont stall. Seems to be a problem when running at low speeds like 500 - 1000 rpm or when hitting it hard to take off. Like I said I am going to replace the fuel filter, plugs and convert to a electronic ignition first to see if it has any affect. It seems like a carb problem though...but not sure. any ideas would be appreciated.

thanks

Dan

[Salty87]

cool

you can try disconnecting the cable at the rudder. if you can turn the wheel easily, you've got rudder issues. if there's no change, the steering cable is binding.

or you can go straight to the grease zerks on the rudder assembly. you might have zerks on the steering cable itself too, probably not. steering cables go bad over time. you should be able to turn the wheel with 1 finger. they're pretty easy to swap out.

what rpms are you idling at? (out of gear)

[chautauquasun]

cool

there are grease zerks on the rudder assembly. you might have zerks on the steering cable itself, probably not. steering cables go bad over time. you should be able to turn the wheel with 1 finger. they're pretty easy to swap out.

what rpms are you idling at? (out of gear)

When you say zerks what are you refering to? Not sure a zerk is. When I had the back seat bench out I saw to brass cylinders...looked like hydraulic cylinders and looked like they were connected to the steering?? I didnt spend a lot of time trying to figure what they were.

That is a good question salty....I am going to say between 1000 and 1500 I think. It takes a while before it will idle well. I have to warm it up and running at like 2000 rpm before I can get it to idle when out of gear. If it is cold as soon as you move the throttle back to nuetral/no throttle it will stall. Once it is warm you can throttle back and it will idle pretty well.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Zerk is a name for a grease gun fitting. Tiny port and hole directly on the rudder and rudder arm. They come in two sizes, you want the small. Any auto parts store will have a small section of grease gun equipment. Buy youself a small grease gun in a kit with small fittings and a tube of marine grade grease for like $15. Pump the zerk as full of grease as you can. If it won't take grease, put a new zerk on it. They are threaded. Turn the wheel a few times and try to wipe up the extra that comes back out the zerks or else it will end up in your bilge. There should be two or three zerks within two feet of your rudder. There should be one ON the rudder very important. Simple and easy!!!

Manual for me says idle should be 600. Maybe timing is off??? Has it been corrected? Also easy. Not an expert on this one..

[chautauquasun]

cool

you can try disconnecting the cable at the rudder. if you can turn the wheel easily, you've got rudder issues. if there's no change, the steering cable is binding.

or you can go straight to the grease zerks on the rudder assembly. you might have zerks on the steering cable itself too, probably not. steering cables go bad over time. you should be able to turn the wheel with 1 finger. they're pretty easy to swap out.

what rpms are you idling at? (out of gear)

Not sure if this makes sense...but sometimes if you turn the steering really fast...the assembly it self hits the underside of the cup holder in the playpen and knocks it up out of the fiberglass.

[chautauquasun]

Zerk is a name for a grease gun fitting. Tiny port and hole directly on the rudder and rudder arm. They come in two sizes, you want the small. Any auto parts store will have a small section of grease gun equipment. Buy youself a small grease gun in a kit with small fittings and a tube of marine grade grease for like $15. Pump the zerk as full of grease as you can. If it won't take grease, put a new zerk on it. They are threaded. Turn the wheel a few times and try to wipe up the extra that comes back out the zerks or else it will end up in your bilge. There should be two or three zerks within two feet of your rudder. There should be one ON the rudder very important. Simple and easy!!!

Manual for me says idle should be 600. Maybe timing is off??? Has it been corrected? Also easy. Not an expert on this one..

okay...now I get it...basically the grease fittings. I have a grease gun so next time i am up I will pump them full. Any ideas what the cylinders are on the starboard side in the back are?

Also....I cant remember what it was pulling on the tach at idle I will check that next. It has not had a timing light on it yet so I will check that as well.

It was just good to get it on the water and open it up!!!! I work on the details next time.

[Salty87]

you're gonna have to take a look under the dash and compare it to what's being sold nowadays. when i replaced my steering cable about 5 years ago there was some question about what hardware was connected to my steering wheel. i can't remember the details, something about a company going out of business and their stuff not being available anymore.

try those zerks first but if your cable is original, you're on borrowed time with it.

for the rough idling, your choke might not be set correctly. when the engine is cold and not running, take the flame arrestor off and watch the butterfly valve on top of the carb. when you turn the key to on (not start) and pump the throttle, the valve should close. this is the proper starting position for a cold engine. if it's not closing, close it with your finger and try starting it.

the choke can be adjusted if this works. you can also test the choke wire with a volt meter but it could still not be adjusted correctly even if it's getting 12v.

[Supbra]

Have any of you guys had the motor turn over once then just have the starter act like its not getting enough juice and just click click click?

[michael hunter]

Have any of you guys had the motor turn over once then just have the starter act like its not getting enough juice and just click click click?

Its a low or bad battery or bad connection between the batt and starter or internal starter.

[chautauquasun]

Zerk is a name for a grease gun fitting. Tiny port and hole directly on the rudder and rudder arm. They come in two sizes, you want the small. Any auto parts store will have a small section of grease gun equipment. Buy youself a small grease gun in a kit with small fittings and a tube of marine grade grease for like $15. Pump the zerk as full of grease as you can. If it won't take grease, put a new zerk on it. They are threaded. Turn the wheel a few times and try to wipe up the extra that comes back out the zerks or else it will end up in your bilge. There should be two or three zerks within two feet of your rudder. There should be one ON the rudder very important. Simple and easy!!!

Manual for me says idle should be 600. Maybe timing is off??? Has it been corrected? Also easy. Not an expert on this one..

I had the boat out last night...once it warmed up it idled out of gear at 600 just like it should. However at low speeds in gear is when it would want to stumble and I would have to feather the throttle to keep it from stalling. I still have yet to put in the new fuel filter, electronic ignition and new plugs...so the problem may go away then. On the other side...at full throttle I was only hitting about 3900 on the tach. I had it up to 40-41 mph but I think I should be able to get a little more out of it. What is the top RPM? I was thinking it was 4300. It sounded good but just didnt get the rpms up. What do you guys think? Prop? shaft out of alignment? timing off? I am going to have it out of the water this weekend and will check the prop size then.

Seems to be running well just doesnt seem to be giving me all of the rpms.

[Blackntan90]

Chautauquasun, the 2 brass cylinders on the transom are for the speedo's- I think they have to do with pressure dampening. Check your prop size and timing. Keep us posted!

[Salty87]

could be the distributor, when the internals get rusty you won't get the timing you need esp at higher rpm's.

you could get one that's already electronic and just skip the conversion from points.

[chautauquasun]

could be the distributor, when the internals get rusty you won't get the timing you need esp at higher rpm's.

you could get one that's already electronic and just skip the conversion from points.

Thanks Salty...I already bought the Petronix electronic igintion but havent installed it yet so I am going to do the conversion. Would you recommend I buy a new cap for the distributor incase the internals are rusty?

Not unhappy with how it is running but you can never have enough rpm right?

[Salty87]

when you install the pertronix, you'll have to take a few plates out of the distributor. you'll see the springs and weights then...they aren't part of the cap. if the dist looks like it's original to the boat, it's something you'll want to add to your list. how rusty will tell you how high on the list. must be some list by now ;)

just something else to keep in mind as to why you're not hitting the right rpm's. i'd check the prop first like BnT mentioned.

not being able to achieve proper rpm's at wot is bad for an engine in the long-term. kind of like starting on a bicycle in 5th gear instead of 1st. the engine is working harder at a given speed because it's not getting up to the ideal rpm range. the wrong prop can cause it or there can be mechanical issues too. 3900 is too low.

[chautauquasun]

when you install the pertronix, you'll have to take a few plates out of the distributor. you'll see the springs and weights then...they aren't part of the cap. if the dist looks like it's original to the boat, it's something you'll want to add to your list. how rusty will tell you how high on the list. must be some list by now ;)

just something else to keep in mind as to why you're not hitting the right rpm's. i'd check the prop first like BnT mentioned.

not being able to achieve proper rpm's at wot is bad for an engine in the long-term. kind of like starting on a bicycle in 5th gear instead of 1st. the engine is working harder at a given speed because it's not getting up to the ideal rpm range. the wrong prop can cause it or there can be mechanical issues too. 3900 is too low.

Hmmm...okay well I guess I have some more work to do. I am pulling it out of the water this weekend. I will check the prop size then. thanks for the advice. Do yo know off had what the proper RPM at WOT should be?

[Salty87]

you've got a 454, right?....4600 or so

[chautauquasun]

you've got a 454, right?....4600 or so

No I am running a the 351w...although I would imagine that 4600 is probably where I should be...correct?

[mapleleaf]

Pretty sure it's more like 4400 with the 351....

[chautauquasun]

Pretty sure it's more like 4400 with the 351....

That would still mean I am off by about 500 rpm. I am going to try and find where I am losing them this weekend. I have a large list of things it could be.......should be fun.

[mapleleaf]

Yeah, you gotta get those rpm's back.....And I agree, I'm having a blast every night and my boat's still torn apart!
I'm doing a water test Sat., before I put in carpet......can't wait!!!!

[Blackntan90]

Love the stoke! You have me wishing I could go out this weekend, but it's been raining for a week and the river is up- so I will just tinker instead! I can't wait to hear how it goes- good luck!

[Salty87]

i wish you guys with the rain could send it down here. there's nothing to see on lake travis except 20' of lake bottom all around the shoreline.