Loose Engine Mount Bolts

[Okie Boarder]

So I pulled the engine compartment and the cover plate to expose the rear section of the bilge. I need some room to work on the one crack in the stringer fiberglass that oozes water a bit. While I was working down there I noticed something. The previous owner had removed all the engine mount bolts to the stringers and injected some sort of epoxy stuff, drilled it back out, then remounted the bolts. It appears at least a couple of the 16 bolts have wiggle loose a little and a quick turn with the wrench reveals they just spin. I fear they may all do this before too long. So....what are my options, short and long term?

Can I redo what he did?

Will rot doctor help?

Is there such thing as a partial stringer replacement?

How hard is it really to redo the stringers?

I'm wondering if I'm OK for the rest of the season but should consider something to improve the situation in the offseason. I'll post some pictures sometime this evening for reference. I'm in touch with the PO via email to find out what product was used before.

Any ideas or discussion would be helpful!

[csuggs]

As you are probably aware, there are lots of threads on this site about stringer replacement and varying degrees of such. A few of my engine mounting bolts (lag screws) do not tighten completely so I check the position of the engine mounts with reference to the stringer frequently to be sure that nothing is moving. Also, I pay close attention to the driveline for vibration that might crop up due to misalignment. It seems that we are in similar situations with our boats.
So here's my thoughts on the matter. As long as the motor is not moving, I intend to enjoy the boat and not worry too much about it - but I will keep checking for signs of further degradation. When the season is over, there are three choices: 1) Have the stringers and floor completely replaced, 2) Run the boat for another season if things have not progressed and gotten any worse. or 3) Sell the boat and start looking for another.
FYI - from reading MANY of the posts concerning rotten stringers, I think you would be best to go into any stringer repair with the mindset that it will all need to be replaced. Then, if things turn out to be better after starting the project, you will only be pleasantly surprised instead of sorely disappointed!
As for me, I haven't yet decided what I'm going to do except run the boat and have all the fun I can have, for now! ;)

[wotan2525]

rot doctor will work/help if it's dry inside the stringers. if it's wet (and I can't imagine it isn't) it won't do anything.

at this point you are rolling the dice. When I ran into this same issue I decided I could make it through the season -- the engine ended up rotating slightly, the prop shaft wore a hole through the shaft log and dripless seal and the boat sank. Luckily I was able to make it into a couple feet of water and it only partially sank. After a lot of bilging out and headaches I was able to get the boat back onto the trailer where it sat for 2 years while I replaced the stringers.

It's not an easy or fun job. It is possible, though. In my experience (I checked with 4 different boat mechanics) the only economically feasible way to do it is yourself. A boat mechanic is going to be in the $5000 - $8000 range for this kind of work.

Sorry for the bad news. Good luck.

[wotan2525]

Also -- partial stringer replacement is always an option. My stringers were only bad from the transom up to the windshield. In front of the windshield/console they were still solid so I left them as is.

[Salty87]

a crack oozing water sums it up pretty much. a patch won't work on mushy, wet wood. rot doesn't stop once it starts. since the previous owner already tried to patch it, the clock started ticking on the rot before you got the boat. once the stringers get wet, fiberglass locks the moisture in and the rot travels further up the stringer. the earlier you catch it, the smaller the job might be.

clint summed it up...plan on the worst and hope for better.

another thing to consider is the value of getting it done correctly the first time. the project will take alot of time and money either way, don't cut any corners or you risk wasting all that time and money.

are you happy with the boat otherwise?...want to keep it for a long time? you won't get much back at resale if you think you might end up selling it.


one last thing i forgot...wet foam must be removed. that will also help dictate the size of the project.

[Okie Boarder]

I'll post some pictures so it is clear what the previous owner did. He didn't necessarily do any patching, but used some kind of epoxy mixture to ensure the engine mount bolts were still solid.

I suspect the crack is oozing water not because it is saturated, but because water is getting in there when the water sloshes around in the bilge from the minor rudder leak and the dripping of the shaft packing.

I'll check a few things out and try to decide what to do. I'm thinking I might lean towards taking it through the season and then tear into it over the winter.

Salty...what was your total cost for the stringer, floor and carpet part of your project?

I like the boat, but probably wouldn't keep it longer than 3-4 years more at this point. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind putting money into this one to fix it up nice and maybe just keep it even if I got a newer boat.

[Salty87]

I'll post some pictures so it is clear what the previous owner did. He didn't necessarily do any patching, but used some kind of epoxy mixture to ensure the engine mount bolts were still solid.

sounds like he injected some sort of epoxy? you probably could do it again. but, the wood has been rotting since before he injected that. the epoxy should be embedded in good wood or it is just a plug in a bigger hole not grabbing on anything.

you could drill some test holes to sample the stringers. fill with marine tex. you could also get some of those plastic round access covers and open a few spots to look around a bit, pull some foam out and see how much water is down there. you don't have much to lose and you're not going to hurt anything.



Salty...what was your total cost for the stringer, floor and carpet part of your project?


it was around $2-2500. i got a new rub rail and all sorts of other stuff...bilge paint, new hoses, re-wire...you get to start over. it's so frickin nice now. that's also replacing every last inch of stringer. my old floor was so bad you could see the soft spots, the floor creaked and cracked when you walked on it.

[csuggs]

Like Salty said, I think it comes down to how much you like the boat. If you like yours as much as I like mine, then putiing a few grand into it makes sense. Also, having it done right (professionally if necessary) is a good choice so that it will last and you don't have to ever worry about it again. I've gotten prices from two professional boat builders/rebuilders that I will have between 4-5K in a total stringer rebuild, including new stringers, floor, foam and carpet - as good as new or better. To me that could be a small price to pay when you compare it to the cost of newer boats. I mean, I see guys on the river all the time with their $60K Mastercrafts - and while they look really cool and have great tunes, I know they're not having any more fun than I am!

[Ironcross25]

Im in the same boat as csuggs. I have 1 bolt on 1 side and 1 on the other side that is stripped all others stay tight. Its an 86 marauder and i figure Im not doing it untill I have to. I check the motor everytime i go out before I putaway for winter and when i get it out. It has not gotten any worse since I found the prob 3 years ago. I store it indoors. Im not looking forward to the fix. hopefully I can afford a new boat before I have to.

[Okie Boarder]

Thanks. I got an email back from the PO and he is checking with his father-in-law to be sure what they used but he is almost certain it was Rot-Doctor. He says they squeezed some down into the engine mount holes as well as some soft areas they found when the floor was pulled up. Some of the engine mount holes they turned the screws in with the Rot-Doctor still wet and others they let dry, drilled into and screwed the lags back in.

Maybe I can make it work for the rest of the season and tear into it starting in the fall. I don't mind attacking a full stringer replacement and think I can handle doing it. I'd rather not, just due to the time commitment, but if that's what it takes, I can do it. I guess I need to decide if I want to keep this boat longer than just a couple years so I can get a good return on investment for the work it would take.


Salty, is there a NEED to rewire or do new hoses?

I hear what all you all are saying. Sounds like my best bet right now is to do some inspecting to see how bad it really is and do some soul searching on whether I want to keep it. I have started kind of falling in love with it, so maybe it would be worth it to do the replacement and do some other restoration work.

[Salty87]

Salty, is there a NEED to rewire or do new hoses?

that comes down to personal preference. i figured since i had taken it apart, i might as well fix everything while i'm in there. you don't HAVE to paint the bilge but it looks badass now. you don't HAVE to paint the engine but i'm glad i did while it was out. you probably want to run new fuel lines, the vent hoses probably need to be replaced, lots of things could use a cleaning and painting....it's a slippery slope.

i guess i wanted everything shiny and clean, that new boat smell...lol

you might get lucky and have a smaller project. hell, maybe you'll find a repo at a steal like the guy who got the 99 launch for 8k.

[csuggs]

I'm with Salty and like what he did. In my opinion, if you're falling in love with your Supra like I am, and if youre going to do anything at all, go all the way. I mean, if you have something apart, that's the time to replace stuff. Maybe that's part of the reason why I haven't started that project just yet because like Salty said, "it's gonna be a slippery slope" and one thing will definately lead to another and another . . .
But you know, part of the pleasure for me out on the water is knowing that I own a 23 year-old Supra that runs and looks pretty darn nice - a piece of nostalgia - and I get a lot of compliments. So maybe that can be part of your decision as well, because if you decide to go for it and do the job right, you'll be the proud owner of luxury-tournament ski boat that'll make even the guys with new boats a little envious. You know why? Cause yours will be paid for!
Just my opinion, sorry to get excited. . . :oops:

[Blackntan90]

csuggs, you hit the nail on the head!! I couldnt agree more!! We might be brothers seperated at birth!! Just kidding, but I feel exactly the same way about my supra- it's old but, it's paid for, and it takes longer to gas up or launch than my old boat, because everybody wants to ask questions and check it out!!

[Okie Boarder]

I appreciate all your feedback. My wife and I spent a lot of time talking tonight about this and this is where we are at...

We could probably try to sell the boat and not get as much as we paid for it, likely as much less as it would cost to fix. Our other option is to fix it and fork out the money to get it done, and enjoy the boat for several years to come. Our thought is that we're smarter just to fix it. Even if we sold it for what we're into it, what are the chances we would find something that is any better?

If I do the fix, maybe I can figure out a way to build in some ballast tanks under the floor. Thoughts?

I do like the idea of working it to the point where we have all the things that a new wakebaot has with a slight difference...it is somewhat unique and actually over 20 years old...something you can't just buy like a new boat. We could fix this issue then work towards putting in Perfect Pass and putting a tower on it. What would be the difference over a new boat at that point?

Anyhow, here's some pictures of the motor mounts...

[Okie Boarder]

More pictures of the motor mounts and the crack. The crack oozes water for a couple days and that's it. I almost wonder if it is because water from the bilge gets in and it oozes back out, after being at the lake.

I was digging around up front around the area under the cooler and found a couple spots where the fiberglass is breaking away and has exposed wood. The wood is either damp or crumbling some. One piece is stringer and one piece is cross brace. Seems the wear and tear is all the way to the front, based on that.

[agetech]

That stuff oozing around the engine mounts is Gorilla Glue. Looks the PO filled the bolt holes with the glue, then put the lag bolts in. You could take the lag bolts out and do the same thing the PO did. Would probably hold for a season. Gorilla Glue loves moisture while it cures. I wouldn't worry too much about the crack, keep your eye on it, the hulls on these boats are way overbuilt and solid.

[mapleleaf]

Wow , you can really miss a lot on a jobsite with no internet....You guys might as well throw my hat into the stringer boat... My engine mounts are still grabbing, but under the gas tank I've got cracked glass and rotten wood, not mention some fairly noticeable cowl shake...
It's nice to read all these posts describing exactly how I feel about this...Love my Supra (wish it was bigger), Love it's age, and love the work! Do I replace the stringer's on this one??? Or do I find a Sunsport or if I'm lucky a Salty??? and hope for the best? I don't know, But like Clint I watch my motor everytime in and out and am going to enjoy it until it can't be enjoyed (safely) !!!!!
Good luck Okie, whatever the decision!!!! Don't you already have some fiberglassing exp. from the spring????

[Salty87]

...Our thought is that we're smarter just to fix it. Even if we sold it for what we're into it, what are the chances we would find something that is any better?

so true. unless you get an all fiberglass boat, you could end up facing the same situation buying another boat. at least if you rebuild it, you know it inside and out. no computer modules to fail, no bling, no pymt hopefully or at least a helluva lot smaller than a new boat.


If I do the fix, maybe I can figure out a way to build in some ballast tanks under the floor. Thoughts?...

i have some regrets that i didn't but i don't ride as much as i used to. it's hard to add another project to the list when you're just hoping you can even get it back together but in hind sight, i should have just done it....pumpless under floor ballast, doh

your pics don't look that bad but i'd be surprised if that stringer isn't leaking water from behind the crack. still, doesn't look like you need to be in a hurry. if you could get to it this winter and salvage some of the stringers, you might keep the cost down a good bit....time too. the floor is easy, the stringers suck.

[wotan2525]

If I did it again, without a doubt I'd be installing underfloor ballast tanks. It would have added some time to my rebuild and I had a goal when my unemployment ended or I would have done it.

I didn't sell mine because I didn't want to put another buyer in the same position I was in. I would feel like I took advantage of him and doubt I could have sold it with full disclosure of the problems.

Now that mine is completely rebuilt I think about what I could get for it and how I could probably afford to "upgrade." It's a devil I know vs. devil I don't situation though... my friends with brand new boats don't experience any more or less maintenance issues/broken pieces than I do.... and they are always amazed when something goes wrong with my boat I know EXACTLY what/where it is and how to fix it. That gives me great pleasure and peace.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

(Disclaimer I am no expert at subfloor repair)
Oakie most people choose to keep the floatation foam under the floor, but many people say there is much more foam than nessecary. There was a Saltare near me for sale with 2klbs under floor ballast after stringer and floor job. If you look at SN2001 sites, their model of inboard is common than our SunSports so their are more floor job examples to look at. Plenty of people over there don't add a ton of foam and are comfortable putting in sub-floor ballast. It sure would be nice! Also did you post about this on WB?

[wotan2525]

The foam is only to keep the boat floating if it flips over. USCG requirement for boats over a certain size mandates this. I put foam in but like I said... in my opinion it was just to add additional support for my floor. Tanks would be so much better!

[Okie Boarder]

I think I'm really going to dig into the idea of doing ballast. As long as they aren't too big I'm sure it wouldn't offset the purpose of the foam too much anyway, would it? I think that would be soooo cool! I like the boat and it gets interesting looks and comments. How cool would it be to do this rebuild, add in the ballast, add Perfect Pass, tower, etc and be able to go out there and have all the features of a new boat with the style of the old one. And Salty you nailed it, no payment! I own this boat and any upgrades or repairs will be cash.

For those of you that have done this, I may be picking your brain in the next few months about the process and materials. I'm thinking I'll either do it this winter or see if I can wait through to next winter.

Mikey, yes I posted it on wb too.

[Salty87]

i wouldn't worry about the foam either. if you wanted, you could pump some up under the gunnels where it would do more good anyway. i think the uscg requirement is only for certified commercial builders.

all you'd need is a few custom tanks, some gate valves, a little tubing and some connectors, and controls. there are some animated demo's here.... http://www.mikemurphyentinc.com/purevert.html

[Okie Boarder]

Salty, that's pretty cool. I was thinking more traditional with pumps, but that is an interesting concept worth considering.

Here's a few questions to start my thought process...

1. What kind of wood is used? Salty, I noticed on yours it looks like some sort of plywood, except where the engine is. Then it looks more solid like oak or something, and I notice you notched it around the plywood.

2. What type of "shop" facility will I need. Can I get by with a standard garage configuration as long as I can store the top section somewhere other than the garage?

3. What type of tools am I going to need?

4. Is the general idea that you measure and draw out the layout as your tearing down to recreate it?

At this point I'm mentally preparing for doing it. I need to start putting back the money for this project and it may end up not coming together until fall of 2010. Thoughts on keeping the engine mounts fairly secure until then?

[Salty87]

1. i used marine grade plywood but you can use cheaper grades. plywood gives more strength per weight than lumber. i used pressure treated 4x4's (dried out for months) under the engine mounts though. the original stringer plywood was completely gone, i had puddles of water there when i pulled the engine so i went with something more solid than plywood. i did notch away some wood for the engine mounts to match the original design. this is one of the crucial phases...there's not even room for a finger's width between the tranny and hull on my boat. the height of the engine and the angle of the drivetrain are important.

2. the more room the better. you're going to do a fair amount of climbing in and out...with big sections of plywood. fumes can get bad too with poly resin.

3. i got all of my tools at harbor freight....grinder (went thru 2 of them), sawzall, circular saw, fiberglassing supplies, safety equip....goggles, tyvek suit, respirator

4. there are no straight lines or right angles. you'll use the old design for the most part but for most of it you'll cut close and then custom shape things better with a grinder or whatever. you'll probably want to improve a few aspects of the design too.

i have to repeat....floor is easy....stringers take a REALLY long time. the stringers have to be shaped to fit the contour of the full, they have to be bedded to the hull but NOT touching anywhere, they need to be installed so the floor height is correct and level....lots of sanding, fitting, sanding more, fitting again, then bed them to the hull, then glass them over, then get to the floor.


i'd monitor your engine mounts in the meantime. i can't think of much you can do besides inject more epoxy or gorilla glue. anything else prob needs the engine out of the way.

[Okie Boarder]

Sounds good. I think I'd go with the marine grade plywood too. My current stringer setup isn't notched, so that may help me a bit. Did you set the engine in after the wood was in but not glassed to check fit?

My current setup is a 3 car garage in a normal "suburban" neighborhood. With the boat in sideways, like I normally park it, there's a fair amount of room. I'm sure I can make it work. If all goes well and we can wait until fall-winter 2010, I may be moved from the Tulsa are to the OKC area and may be in the type of house we want with a good sized shop. If not, I have friends nearby that have that type of setup that can at least allow me to pull the top cap and leave it at their place. They may even let me bring the bottom section over from time to time to work on it. Fall and even sometimes winter weather can be conducive to working outside occassionally too.

As far as tools, sounds like I'm already covered. I got a lot of that stuff when I did the repair around the shaft log. I'll need to get a new suit and respirator, though.

When you talked about not notching the stringers, do you mean you actually just butted the cross bracing to the stringer edge and bedded it or screwed it or something?

When you mention bedding the wood, I'm assuming you mean you're bedding it into a thickened epoxy, like I did with the shaft log, am I correct?

By the way, you said in your posts it took you about 14 months? Were you working on it full days on the weekends and every chance you got at night or was it way more sporadic than that?

I'm thinking I'll pull the bolts in a few weeks or so and do the epoxy or rot doctor again and see if I can get them somewhat solid, then just monitor things. If I can make it through this season and at least half of next season, I'll be happy and then I'll tackle the job in the 2010 offseason having it all done and ready for the 2011 season.

Ummmmm, let's see. Fiberglass...what kind of cloth types do you use? I used the woven roving first then the tighter cloth for the shaft log replacement. Also, since this is such a big area, did you mix up bigger batches of epoxy and go with a slower cure? Were you using huge pieces of cloth and using a roller of some sort? Do you actually bond the fiberglass right to the wood? I was kind of under the impression from a friend of mine you don't so that since the wood needs to expand and contract.

I know I'm asking a lot of questions about a project that won't happen tomorrow, but I definitely want to wrap my arms around what all I'd be getting into so I can prepare.

[csuggs]

Okieboarder - it looks like your asking a lot of good questions to some guys that definitley know their stuff. Also check out a thread on this site by RickR and title something like 1987 Comp restoration - it's one of the best documented stringer repair threads I've seen.
BTW - I checked my bolts this morning and was able to "re-torque" (I use that term loosely!) some of them, and some won't tighten at all. So far so good though, no movement of the motor yet!

[Salty87]

keep the questions coming, i researched for prob 2 years before i dove in. the whole thing took me closer to 10 months, i think. that was spending lots of time on it too. break it down into smaller projects, some of them go quickly and some of them take some figuring out. i wasted some time trying to avoid pulling the cap and engine only to end up getting them out of the way later. plan it out...1 weekend to take the cap off and pull engine, 1 weekend to rip out the old floor and foam, 1 weekend grinding your ass off, several weekends fitting the stringers, etc.

notching stringers...you'll see when you get in there. each of the cross-braces are recessed into the stringers....opening a hole in the top of the stringer isn't a great plan. water gets in there eventually. instead of notching the stringers, i made little bulkheads that run between the stringers. they're glassed in...probably won't last forever but they won't take the stringers out if they ever start rotting.

bedding the stringers...you don't want wood touching the hull. the hull will flex on the water and if you've got a less flexible stringer coming into contact with a flexing hull, you could end up with hull damage. thickened resin or a few other materials will keep the stringer from contacting the hull. you'll find the old bedding material if you have to grind the old stringers out.

i got most of my supplies at uscomposites....poly resin, chopped mat, cloth, woven roving, mixing cups, dispensers. some of the layups were pretty big but most were easy to handle. you'll get the hang of cure times...working temp makes a huge difference.

it's dirty work but it's not hard. i sound like a broken record but i can't emphasize enough, do it before your stringers rot out and you'll do yourself a huge favor. if you're gonna keep her...open a hole and take some foam out. that will tell you if your stringers are sitting in water and rotting or if you've got solid stringers and only a few bad spots. do it under the observer seat, cover it up with an access panel cover. cut the hole toward the main inner stringer, they do most of the work. a floor job could be done in 6 weekends.

[Okie Boarder]

Thanks. I think I have a general idea of what I'm getting into. In a few weeks I'm going to check all the motor mount lag screws and look at doing the rot doctor or some sort of epoxy on any loose ones. I thought maybe I could drill a diagonal hole from the top of the stringer area into one of the lag screw hole areas when I do this to give some lateral support to the "plug" that result from the eopxy. That might help a bit for a while. I'm also going to punch a hole under the observer seat, like you suggested. In addition, I'm going to do one under the rear seat on the opposite side of the boat. That will give me a feel of the condition of both sides and both ends of the boat.

I'll make some decisions from there on how soon I will get into starting this. When I get really serious and close to planning it all out, I may come back to questions about specific materials to kind of build a BOM for the project. I'm really hoping I can band-aid it for this season and most of next season and look at starting this around September next year. That gives me time to prep, put aside extra money and possibly be out of this house and down to the OKC area where I'd buy a house out of town with a shop ;)

[Okie Boarder]

Salty, do you have more pictures besides what you posted in your thread that I can look at?

Also, do you remember about how much space was available that could have been used for ballast between the stringers and supports?

[87SunSportMikeyD]

If you do install sub-floor hard ballast tanks, you could try and do pumpless ballast like...umm.. I think it is Epic and MB who do that style? Just one eletronic gate-valve and a transom thru-hull. Full with gravity, empty by driving. As long as the tanks are below water line, should be simple. Probably would NOT work in the bow though, but you could maybe just use some dry weight there ~150lbs of something.

Verdict not in for me around bow weight in SunSport yet. Sometimes I like the wake better with it loaded in front and back, sometimes I think only minimal weight is nessecary.

[Okie Boarder]

I got confirmation from the PO that they used a product from Rot-Doctor. He said his FIL got it from a friend and it was in a caulking tube...they didn't order it off the website. He also said it was done two summers ago.

Any suggestions on what product to use if I wanted to go this route to extend the time until I do the stringers?

I patched up that crack shown in the last picture with a few layers of fiberglass cloth and epoxy. I'm going to watch that section and see how it does over the coming weeks. I also plan to check which of the bolts are spinning loose and which grab fairly good to see how bad the situation really is.

[Okie Boarder]

The more I look at and think about ballast, the more I lean towards creating a "compartment" in the subfloor and making an opening access panel to get to a portion of it. I can coat it with that bilge coat paint and ensure no screws are around. Then I can mount, wire and plumb a pump down there and just plumb it into a bag. That way if there is ever a problem I can get to the pump or remove the bag for a repair or replacement without tearing up the floor.

There are a couple "ski locker" sized bags by Launch Pad and Fly High that are pretty small diameters but just kinda long. Ones like this might work...

http://www.buywake.com/catalog/detail/FL_rYXTm

http://www.buywake.com/catalog/detail/FL_ZVcC1

http://www.buywake.com/catalog/detail/Ze9np

http://www.buywake.com/catalog/detail/LA_Ytr1r

[Salty87]

Salty, do you have more pictures besides what you posted in your thread that I can look at?

Also, do you remember about how much space was available that could have been used for ballast between the stringers and supports?


yeah, i've got more pics. what are you looking for?

i didn't take very accurate measurements for available space. the stringers were no taller than 13" on average, about 12" apart and length of 4-5' maybe. the cross supports weren't built with ballast in mind but slight mods shouldn't be a problem.



...Then I can mount, wire and plumb a pump down there and just plumb it into a bag. That way if there is ever a problem I can get to the pump or remove the bag for a repair or replacement without tearing up the floor.

might work with snap in carpet.

the pump seems like a weak link though. gravity can do the pumping for free, faster, nothing to break.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Well if you do bags, you have to worry about overfilling the bag and damaging your floor with the pressure. You can relieve the pressure with overflow/vent line which you will need no matter if you use bags or tanks. However, with bags the vent line cannot be much higher vertically on the boat hull than the bags, or it will take a LOT LOT of pressure to actually push water out the overflows. It is a pretty sensitive measurement and you need to test is on the water before installing the vent through-hulls to be sure you have the right height. You also don't really want to have overflows below the waterline, I don't think...

However with hard tanks the tank does not expand at all, so as soon as they are full water will come right out of the tanks. Water would exit the overflow through-hull no matter what height you put it at. Also the hard tanks you do not need a one-way check valve on the overflow/vent because the tank does not need to suck flat like a sac does to empty properly. If you made a pumpless system I would really go with tanks. There are TONS of tanks on the internet.

[Okie Boarder]

Salty, I'd love to just see more pics of the tear down process, rebuild of the stringers and rebuild of the floor.

Mikey, I didn't think about that with the bags...I see where that could be an issue. How do they do it on boats that have built in bags as ballast instead of tanks?

Maybe the tank idea is better.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Well most boats do not have sub-floor ballast. The ones that do only use tanks or hard-walled compartments as far as I know.

The majority of boats have ballast above the floor, usually in the v-drive compartments and then either in a ski locker down the center of the boat near the driver or something in the bow. They are either hard tanks sitting on the floor or bags sitting on the floor.

The reason they like bags is because when they are NOT full you still have full storage (ie pack the boat to trailer it for a week of camping).

...disclaimer of course I haven't been in any new boats with ballast, just read about 'em. :)

[Salty87]

tanks and no pumps is where it's at. i don't think a pump would even work very well, you'd still need some sort of valve to kill pressure to the pump or you'd get water draining and/or venting out the side at speed. maybe it would fill as fast as it drains? lol

i think you could use foam to make forms for the tanks to maximize space. might help keep the tanks locked in position better too. would probably be best to shop tanks and see if the prices are a deal killer. i looked around a little when i rebuilt mine, ran out of cash before seeing any prices.

more pics...

note the rotted stringers at the cross supports
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0301.jpg

still have the top cap on here, i was hoping the bow wasn't rotted out
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0218.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0289.jpg


this is what was under my engine mounts, after the water drained out. this one just ripped out when i pulled the engine, only thing holding it was the glass
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0154.jpg

[Salty87]

i don't have as many of the rebuilding process, usually had a mask on and resin on my hands.

notice the strings...leave little bits of the old floor for reference and to attach the strings to. i had just bedded the main stringers here.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0386.jpg

fitting foam and new deck
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0484.jpg

new deck glassed in
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0518.jpg

some carpet
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a10/salty87/IMG_0521.jpg

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Well there are tricks with keeping the water in the ballast system. For aerator pumps usually an electricly activated gate valve is used but some people have found ways to leave it out.

With reversable Simer sump pumps, if the pump is turned off the pump acts as a valve and does not let any water pass.

If you went with a pumpless system you would need a gate valve for sure.

[genroxbro]

I recently purchased a 64 Sea Skiff with a flywheel forward Chev 283. While doing some engine work, I noticed that the long bolts which secure the rear engine mounts to the wooden frame work engine mounting to the hull itself were loose and protruding up.
I put a 3/4 wrench on them and attempted to tighten them up. They turned with slightly more force than a hand tighten, but never seated or tightened up.
My thoughts were to support the engine, remove the mounts, drill out the holes, install and glue a hardwood dowel in each hole. Then realign the engine, drill and reinstall the bolts. The framework appears to be solid and free of decay.
I am new to this hobby and want to make sure I do this repair properly.
Any suggestions or ideas are welcome and appreciated.
Thanks,
Jim Woischke
_____________________________________
Website I designed for payday loans in vancouver (http://www.paydaytown.com) company.

[Okie Boarder]

So we were headed to the wakeboard competition Thursday and got rained on really bad. I had both plugs in so the bilge filled up pretty good. I got it drained out when we got down there. A lot of the water looked like coke or coffee. When we went on the lake yesterday, I did some checking when we were on the water. Here are a couple things I noticed...

Slight seepage from the two rear motor mounts at the stringer.

Starboard side rear engine mount pulls from stringer about 1/32" to 1/16" upon acceleration in gear.

Here are a couple questions...

1. Do you think the seepage is water leaking in somewhere when we're on the lake or more evidence of the water being trapped in the subfloor and seeping into the stringers from one of the notchings?

2. If it is leaking in somewhere, what are all my possible culprits? (I'm thinking exhaust flanges, rudder, strut mounts...anything else?)

I'm going to do a check of the foam pretty soon and look at trying to re-epoxy the engine mounts to at least make them more solid for a while. I'm kinda getting the feeling that I may have to tackle the stringer replacement this winter...not sure if it can make it another year. Thoughts?

[87SunSportMikeyD]

I thought they had SANTE at the comp why are you dragging her around with you lol! jk I got rained on really bad while trailering home the other week it really sucked. But I drained her out and she dried right up.

Was the bilge full enough to submerge the cracked area?

[Salty87]

the foam becomes a giant sponge over time, when it sits in water. it won't ever dry out again, will seep for a long time.

the dark color to the water is rot and grime that grows on the foam, rot tea basically. i think what you're seeing is water moving to the back of the hull from the boat being on plane. it's finding a path of less resistance and draining, not unlike a hull blister will just seep.

even if you find the source, the foam is still wet. if you've never sealed up the exhuast, that's probably it. you'd probably have noticed if the platform was becoming loose.

i took my boat to the ramp before i pulled the top cap, after the old floor was out. the exhaust leaked like shower heads when the foam was removed.

[Okie Boarder]

I thought they had SANTE at the comp why are you dragging her around with you lol! jk I got rained on really bad while trailering home the other week it really sucked. But I drained her out and she dried right up.

Was the bilge full enough to submerge the cracked area?

LOL!

I fixed the cracked area, but the epoxy was already breaking loose around the engine mount lag screws on the stringers. And, yes, the bilge was full enough to submerge them.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

And, yes, the bilge was full enough to submerge them.

So do they seep all the time or just after they get submerged?

[Okie Boarder]

Well, I'm not 100% sure. It seemed like the area was dry and wasn't seeping when we launched the boat, but after we were on the water for a little while there was seepage. I'm going to check again next time we go out. We aren't going out this weekend so it will be about a 2 week period before the boat is in the lake again...we'll see.

[Okie Boarder]

So, I pulled the exhaust flanges to see what it looked like. I have the flapper style exhaust flanges. Once removing them completely, the interface between the inner flange and hull is missing some caulking. I'm guessing this is a culprit to the water coming in. I'm going to reseal them with some of the 3M 5200 marine caulk and see how it goes from there. Take a look at the pictures...thoughts?

[Okie Boarder]

I did some clean up and scraping of the old silicone. I was able to actually move the inner flange around a little bit...enough to put my finger in there and look in with a flashlight. It is definitely moist down in there. I'm going to let it sit out in the sun for the rest of the day and try sealing it up tomorrow. My thoughts are I can squeeze a good bead in the gap to try to get a good seal. Then I can do a thin layer when I slide the outer flange back in. Then finish with a good bead around the flange surface that screws to the hull, along with putting some silicone on the screws. After I do that, I'll see if we have seepage still when we go to the lake next weekend.

If it seems to go away, I'll work on the engine mount lag screws. Since it is pretty wet under there, will Rot-Doctor work? What about gorilla glue?

I'm also wondering if I should fill the holes with epoxy, drill them out after curing and install the lags, or if I should just screw the lags in with the epoxy all wet. Thoughts?

[Okie Boarder]

Got everything put back together Sunday. It was tough getting the silicone to fill the gaps. It was so runny it didn't want to stay in there. We got it pretty good and made sure we reached in to create a nice chamfer of the silicone inside the sleeve at the interface between the outer and inner pieces. We'll see how it does Saturday and whether I continue to get seepage into the bilge at the engine mount lag screw area.

Any thoughts on the approach to make my engine mounts more solid as a short term fix?

[Okie Boarder]

Well, no seepage this weekend after caulking around the exhaust ports. Also, the water that is in the bilge is much more clear now. Maybe it is helping. We're going to keep an eye on things as we finish up this season. If things seem solid and not moving, I may pull the lag screws out and leave them out all winter so I can try to dry things some in there and epoxy to help them hold one more season before tackling the stringer job.

[Okie Boarder]

We did some monitoring of the situation this weekend when we went out. We're getting a fair amount of movement of the engine mounts on the stringers. Here's the breakdown...

Right rear mount: rotation away from the stringer on the rear side; rear side lag screw moving ~1/8"; rear top lag screw moving ~1/16".

Left rear mount: rotation and push towards stringer; front side lag screw pulling out ~1/32"-1/16".

Right front mount: rear top lag screw moving ~1/32"-1/16".

Left front mount: No apparent lag screw movement, but the mount itself tends to sink into the stringer ~1/32".

All this happens when under load (strong accelaration). After messing with it for a while we went back to our cove and parked to talk and think about whether we need to take action. I happened to open the bilge access and look inside and saw some oil floating in there. It appears I'm leaking slightly from the elbow fitting at the oil pan drain. It seems that portion is really tight to the hull and I wonder if the flexing of the whole motor is pushing it against the hull. Plus, since it seems like the front left mount is kind of sinking into / cutting into the stringer fiberglass, maybe it is making it push even closer.

So, it's decision time. Here are the options I'm looking at. Let me know thoughts...

1. Use the rot-doctor process (CPES plus Layup and Laminating resin with a filler) to inject in the lag screw holes and give something more solid for them to hold on to.

Couple questions on this one:

Should I just inject the holes?
Should I pull the engine? and should I potentially cut away a little bit of glass to expose more area to work with under there?

2. Get the process started for stringer replacement.

Should I try to repair and would the rot-doctor process at least be worth trying to see if it gets things somewhat solid again? Or is it best to park the boat and get the stringer process going?

Would more pictures help or are the ones I took before sufficient?

[Salty87]

i hate to say it but it sounds like it's that time. the rot dr. may work for a little while but eventually (prob sooner than later) more of the stringer will deteriorate and then you'll just have epoxy plugs floating in ever widening soft spots of stringer. that's if you find any solid wood in there. and, epoxy doesn't stick to wet wood very well.

to do it even close to the right way, you'd really want to drill the holes out until you hit good wood and then start adding epoxy. you'd need to pull the engine to get at it. cutting away the glass would be preferable too so you can see what you're doing.

did you ever open any access spots to check the foam? i'd do that before deciding but i doubt it will change things much. i'd be surprised if there weren't puddles of water in the low spots of the hull just forward of the engine.

[Okie Boarder]

I'm kind of thinking it is time too. I've almost psyched myself up to that fact already. I hadn't done the checks of the foam yet, but I had a thought. What is I used a hole saw and just drilled into the stringer somewhere near the motor mounts to determine the situation?

I kind of agree the epoxy would probably be a stop gap. I don't want to end up causing more damage, for sure.

This is a hard pill to swallow, but maybe it's just time and I should start. Getting started now means I could be done in early spring ;-)

I found something interesting out on Sunday. The in-laws of a Dad from my son's baseball team own a small marine service and sales business just around the corner from my house. They have a boat lift, which I imagine could be used to lift the upper hull off. They probably also have a way to pull the engine. I talked to the Dad about whether his FIL might be willing to let me use the lifts and store the hull and engine at his shop. He said he might and also said he's done lots of restorations. He usually takes one projects like that in the winter when it is slow. I'm going to talk to him next week when he returns from vacation. Maybe I can work something out with them to do some of the work together or something.

By the way, I'm thinking about the sub-floor ballast.

Salty,

If you were able to eliminate a few cross braces in the rear, and put a tank along the main stringers from stern forward, what do you think the dimensions could be (Height and Width)? I'm assuming that a triangular shaped tank would work and fit in there. If I could figure a way to fit a 30-40 gallon tank under there, that would work great!

[87SunSportMikeyD]

I would think you would want to put in two rear tanks in between the main stringers. They would be as far toward stern as possible and would be as long as possible towards the bow of the boat. This way you can fill just one side for surfing! Probably still have bags in the bow? With my 2x400lb method, you still have your whole bow storage open. Could be 2.250 too, but they are longer sacs.

Good luck with the project. Could happen to any of us. Sigh.... Please keep a diary of the process!

[Salty87]

Salty,

If you were able to eliminate a few cross braces in the rear, and put a tank along the main stringers from stern forward, what do you think the dimensions could be (Height and Width)? I'm assuming that a triangular shaped tank would work and fit in there. If I could figure a way to fit a 30-40 gallon tank under there, that would work great!

you could re-arrange the cross bracing a little and the tanks could also be made to fit under the cross braces (notches in the tanks essentially). that would help hold them in place but i don't think they'll move anyway.

i'd say you've got about 12-14" between main stringer and outter stringer. the depth will run from about 7" toward the stern and up to 14-16" closer to the engine, maybe a little more. you should be able to get at least 4-5' along the engine area, again maybe more if the tank runs under cross-supports.

the tanks would need to be custom made but that's not a very big deal. you can use flotation foam to make a mold for the tank.

there's a bunch more room under the floor of the playpen too. would probably be easier to get a tank in there....the 3 of them would be bad ass! fittings and pipes would be easy. hell, if you run 2 tanks from near the stern to closer to the bow you wouldn't even need a third tank.

[Okie Boarder]

I didn't get any pictures yet, but I turned every lag screw at the engine mounts. All 14 of them just spin. At least 3 can slide right out with little effort.

Yeah, the ideas you guys are floating out there are along the lines of what I was thinking. I'll start doing some research on tanks. I've had a couple people mention just making compartments in those areas and glassing and sealing them so they can handle water.

[techsledder]

I thought there have been times when guys on this forum have snapped their prop shafts with the extra movement on the drive train from rotten stringers/poor mounting? I would start on the option #2 right away if it were my boat.

[Okie Boarder]

Yeah, definitely don't want that to happen so I think I'm going for it.