View Full Version : Tsunami 800 pump upgrade project
Finished my tsunami pump ugrade for my '08 22 SSV. I wanted to post pictures of the project along with directions on how I did it. This system will eliminate the sprinkler valves, filter and RULE pump. The only thing I used left over from the stock system was the ball valve and intake grate. You will need to completely remove the entire stock manifold/sprinkler valves, cut the wiring, remove filter and RULE pump.
First, I had to remove the intake grate from the boat and grind down the scupper. With this setup you will not be using sprinkler valves anymore and the tsunamis will not prevent water from entering into the bags while plaining the boat/driving. The vented loops are used to help alleviate the bags from filling.
After you have grinded the scupper off the intake grate, re-install onto the boat by sealing with 3M Marine Silicon 4200. Make sure and remove it from the boat! dont try and grind it on the boat, I can gaurantee you will do damage to the bottom of your boat/gel coat! and wear eye protection and long sleeves when grinding. Brass slivers will be flying all over the place. I also chose to put duck tape around the intake grate before removing it, this helps with scratching and also makes it nice when you apply the silicone after re-installing without making a mess of everything.
The manifold I used is 3/4" brass, I bought all the parts at Home Depot. I chose brass because it is strong for this applications, wont rust and a much better alternative than PVC. It is more expensive, but the last thing you want it have your manifold crack and start taking in water in the bilge area. You can see by the pictures it sits very low to the bottom of the boat. It was a tight fit, but my main concern was having it low to the bottom which I accomplished. You need to have the tsunami pumps close to the bottom of the boat because they are not self priming. They need to be below the water draft line on the outside of the boat to create pressure to force water into the pump. I had no priming issues at all, hit the fill switch and you are good to go. Unlike the stock RULE pump that will not prime at times unless you drive the boat, and even this method did not always work.
Once the manifold is put together and installed after the ball valve, you need to screw on the tsunami pumps. This is also a great time to extend the wiring on the pumps, it will make it much easier than waiting until they are mounted by the bottom of the boat. I would add about 1 ft of wire to each wire, this should be plenty to reach the wires from the sprinkler valves. Obviously everything that is threaded needs pipe dope or teflon tape wrapped around the threads to prevent leaking.
After this the wiring will easily match up, just reconnect the stock wires to the tsunami's. Does not matter which wire you connect. The wiring from the RULE pump can just be capped of, you will not need this anymore. Make sure and connect the proper wiring to the pump you want to fill a certain bag with. They had the wires marked right, left and center on the stock wiring harness.
Now you are ready to install your vented loops. I chose to mount them on the rear wall of the ski lockers as high up as possible. The higher up the better. I also mounted the center ballast vented loop right next to the drivers side vented loop. Wakemakers recommends mounting it under the front dash, I chose this route because it was easier and seems to work fine. I figured if it would not fill up the rear bags, why would it fill up the center bag??? my theory proved correct, no problems with center bag filling.
Now you are ready to connect your hoses to the vented loops and tsunami pumps. I used 1" hose clamps and 3/4" no-kink bilge line, the stuff is bullet proof and wont kink and is easy to work with. I used an additional 25 feet of hose to make all the new connections. You will also need (3) double male barbed 3/4" fitting to attach the new bilge line to the existing ballast line. This makes it a lot easier not having to re-route the entire fill line. I picked up 5 or 6 of them just to have a few extras on hand incase I needed them. You can always return the ones you dont use.
You will run the hose from the tsunami to the vented loop, back into the bag. Pretty simple, and the drains will not have to be touched seeing as each bag already has its own drain pump on it. I would recommend replacing the stock drain tube with the new 3/4" no-kink line, this will eliminate any headaches of pinching the line from a full bag. (had this happen to me once, it sucks). You will need a couple 3/4" double male barbed fittings to attach the no-kink bilge line to the existing stock drain lines. I would cut it just behind or near the sidewall and re-run the no-kink from this point. The 3/4" double male barbed fittings are available at Lowes, wakemakers did not sell them.
The last item you need to replace is the 3 amp fuses on the fuse panel under the dash. If you crawl on your back and look up to the right side of the dash area you will see a fuse bank with 6 fuses. They are clearly marked with 3. There is also three other fuses that already are using 5 amp fuses, dont do anything to these, they are for the drain pumps. The 3 amp fuses will need to be replaced with 5amp fuses or else you will start to blow fuses when filling. The sprinkler valves you replaced used very little amperage to operate, the Tsunamis run at about 2 amps, so 5 is a good choice. 3 amps is a little close to the max output and eventually you will blow a fuse. Its also not a bad idea to keep some of these handy on your boat just incase you end up needing one on the water. They can be purchased at any automotive store.
One other recommendation is to vent the bags, Supra did not do this. It will definitely help when filling them and not having air pockets and loosing ballast weight. Typically you loose about 20% from air pockets. All you need to do is run a line from the extra plugged fitting on the bag to the end of your drain line with a "Y" connector and one way check valve. The check valve is used to stop water from entering back into the bag when emptying. Try and get it as close to the end of the line near the exit hole out the side of the boat. This will also help the bag drain when it is completely full, letting you know it has reached capacity. And of course the biggest advantage to let all the air push out while filling. I have done this to all three of my bags. Tie each bag into the drain line it is using. Make sure you have the extra vent plug on your bag, some have them and some dont. If you dont have the extra one you will have to purchase an entire new bag.
After this you are finished and good to go. The tsunami's will pump 13.4 GPM per bag, much faster than the stock RULE system. The 3/4" intake is good for about 38-40 GPM. So it will accommodate the necessary flow for all the three pumps running at once. Tsunamis are reliable, easy to use pumps. The nice thing about aerator style pumps over impeller driven is aerator pumps will not burn up when ran dry. Impeller pumps when ran dry will burn up and need to be re-built.
I chose the tsunami's over the JABSCO pumps (they use in malibu and mastercraft) because the tsunami 800's put out 13.4 GPM compared to the JABSCO at 9 gpm, so you are getting a little more flow. In my opinion, the Tsunami's will probably outlast the JABSCO pump. And if you do need to ever replace one they are only about $30. JABSCO pumps are running about $235 each. The JABSCO pumps also use 9 amp per pump, and the Tsunami use 3 amps per pump. All 3 Tsunamis running at one time equal the amount of amp draw one JABSCO pump uses. I just could not see that much benefit using it in this application, especially since the Supra has seperate drain pumps already installed for each bag.
Hope this gives some useful information, I know its a great upgrade from the stock system. In my opinion, well worth the $300. Total install time for me was about 7 hours. I lake tested this system last week and hod no problems with it filling or having the bags fill up when the system is not being used and the boat is being driven. If you choose to also vent the bags, it will be an additional $150 worth of parts to do this.
Jason at wakemakers help me build this system, I ordered everything from them. Unfortunately the adaptors for the stock manifold they sent me did not fit, that is why I built my own out of brass. My stock manifold would not have worked because there was not enough space to fit the tsunami's down below near the bottom of the boat. Jason has been very helpful and I would highly recommend them to get your parts and any questions you might have for them.
Parts list:
3 Tsunami 800 ballast pumps
3/4" Male barbed fitting that will screw on exit port on Tsunami pump
20-25 ft of 3/4" no kink bilge line (I call it no-kink, its ribbed)
3 3/4" double male barbed fittings
A bunch of 3/4"-1" hose clamps
Solder gun/wire connectors to extend wiring on pumps
Extra wire (5 ft max) to exend wiring on pumps
3 Vented loops
Brass Manifold parts or Supra Manifold (my supra manifold would not fit the pumps correctly by the bottom of boat)
3m Marine 4200 silicone
Pipe dope or teflon tape
Tie straps to secure wiring
Electrical tape
Grinder to grind off intake scupper/vice to hold intake grate
Safety glasses/long sleeve shirt while grinding
5 amp fuses (3 of them)
If you are venting the bags:
3 "Y" or "T" connectors to tie into your drain line
3 one way check valves
3 male quick disconnect fittings (goes into extra port on bag)
3 female quick disconnect fittings (with red tab, goes on bilge line)
Extra 3/4" no-kink bilge line
More hose clamps
Website is www.wakemakers.com
jonyb
08-02-2009, 09:14 PM
Looks good fman! Thanks for the write-up....
tg0824SSVGG
08-02-2009, 10:42 PM
Hey - I have "stuck" this thread - so it won't get lost in the noise.
Fman - if you have more pic's, please post them - this looks like a GREAT upgrade!
A question - are the pumps you put in the kind that burn up if they don't have water, or
are they safe to run dry?
I will take some more pictures this week, the pumps are aerator style and will not burn up if you run them dry. That is why I went with the tsunami's because of this reason. The JABSCO pumps (malibu and MC use) are impeller driven and will get ruined if you run them dry. The '09 Supras are using JABSCO pumps, I heard they installed a safety switch to eliminate them running dry. They are reversible and are used to fill and empty the ballast tanks/bags. However, if you follow wakeworld at all, there are multiple people who own MC's that are having problems with the JABSCO pumps burning up. And they also put out less flow than the tsunami's and cost way more ($35-Tsunami and $265 for the JABSCO).
If you guys have more questions, ask up... happy to help you out.
Thanks,
Travis....
mapleleaf
08-03-2009, 10:23 AM
The fitting's from the pump's to the brass Tee's are??????
Looks like an amazing setup....You ground down the outside of the intake to help with water flow????
87SunSportMikeyD
08-03-2009, 12:25 PM
Looks great I'm sure you will be very happy with the ballast system now.
The fitting's from the pump's to the brass Tee's are??????
Looks like an amazing setup....You ground down the outside of the intake to help with water flow????
The Tsunami 800's will screw right into the 3/4" brass T's, no adaptors necessary. You grind down the intake grate (scupper) to eliminate water being forced into the pump system while driving the boat. As I mentioned in my write up the Tsunamis will not stop water flow, the vented loops are there to prevent water from entering the bags while driving the boat. If you do not grind off the scupper on the intake it will force water into the system and the vented loops will not be able to hold back the pressure and your bags will fill up. This is why Supra was using the sprinkler valves, to stop water from entering the bags.
The only other option if you choose to leave the scupper on the intake is to manually turn off your system with the ball valve when you are not using it. I did not want to have to lift the seat up/cooler every time I wanted to fill the system and then have to turn it back off after the bags were full.
87SunSportMikeyD
08-03-2009, 06:00 PM
What keeps the sacs from draining when the pumps are off?
What keeps the sacs from draining when the pumps are off?
Good question, the sacs will not drain for a couple reasons. The fill inlet is located on top/near the top of the sac, so it is very difficult for water to exit out of the top. And the vented loop will prevent water from pulling out of the sac. The vented loops stop the syphoning effect and create an air pocket to prevent water from filling or draining out of the sac.
saltare inverts
08-03-2009, 10:40 PM
I ask the same question Wakemikey askes. I love your setup. I would recommend changing the connectors on the wiring from twistlocks to solder and heatshrink. Not trying to bash, just a hint.
I ask the same question Wakemikey askes. I love your setup. I would recommend changing the connectors on the wiring from twistlocks to solder and heatshrink. Not trying to bash, just a hint.
That is going to be one of my to-do's, made a little hickup when installing... I would recommend extending the wires on the tsunami's before you screw them into the manifold. They are short and difficult to reach after being attached to the manifold. If I would have done this I could have soldered them on. Trying to heatshrink them would have been difficult, so I had to go with the twistlocks. If I ever get motivated again I will remove them and heatshrink them on. For now the twistlocks will have to do. Solder and heatshrink definitely is a better way to go.
87SunSportMikeyD
08-04-2009, 10:06 AM
I guess I meant what keeps water from draining out the drain pumps, not the fill pumps. Assuming all pumps are turned off.
Which twistlocks are you referring to? Not fly high quick connects I don't think? I have not had any trouble with them...
jeilers1
08-04-2009, 10:24 AM
I have the same question. What keeps water from going out the drain pumps, or does it still function the same as the factory setup? If too much pressure is put on the bags the water is forced out the drain pump to relieve the pressure. I've got three bags tied together now on the same fill pump (stock) and the only way I can get them to all fill completely is to put a manual ball valve on the the empty line to the pressure can build and equalize the water in all three bags otherwise it just flows through the empty pump and does so every time you throttle on.. I just have to remember to keep my eye on the bags when filling.
I believe the vented loops are used by other boat companies such as malibu. I know a couple of guys that have bu's and their center compartment will fill on it's own sometimes. I hope this system works as I would like to do the same modification.
87SunSportMikeyD
08-04-2009, 01:12 PM
I tried to use a vented loop in my system with a reversable pump. Doesn't work so good. :) Water squirts out the little valve when you try and reverse hehe.
I guess I meant what keeps water from draining out the drain pumps, not the fill pumps. Assuming all pumps are turned off.
Which twistlocks are you referring to? Not fly high quick connects I don't think? I have not had any trouble with them...
Nothing has changed from the stock drain pumps and lines. I have not looked into what pump Supra is using to drain the sacs, I know it is aerator style, and they mounted it lower than the bags to help it drain when turned on. I do know if you overfill the bags it will start to dump water out the drain hole.
Sorry I could not answer your question better, but like I said, I have made no mod's to the current drain system from the factory other than installing the no-kink 3/4" line replacing the stock black line.
The twistlocks I was referring to was the yellow electrical connectors.
Travis
I have the same question. What keeps water from going out the drain pumps, or does it still function the same as the factory setup? If too much pressure is put on the bags the water is forced out the drain pump to relieve the pressure. I've got three bags tied together now on the same fill pump (stock) and the only way I can get them to all fill completely is to put a manual ball valve on the the empty line to the pressure can build and equalize the water in all three bags otherwise it just flows through the empty pump and does so every time you throttle on.. I just have to remember to keep my eye on the bags when filling.
I believe the vented loops are used by other boat companies such as malibu. I know a couple of guys that have bu's and their center compartment will fill on it's own sometimes. I hope this system works as I would like to do the same modification.
Yes, nothing has changed from the factory drain system, it will push water out when its full. I usually let it fill until water is coming out the drain hole. Especially since there are no gauges!
mapleleaf
08-04-2009, 08:24 PM
The Tsunami 800's will screw right into the 3/4" brass T's, no adaptors necessary. You grind down the intake grate (scupper) to eliminate water being forced into the pump system while driving the boat. As I mentioned in my write up the Tsunamis will not stop water flow, the vented loops are there to prevent water from entering the bags while driving the boat. If you do not grind off the scupper on the intake it will force water into the system and the vented loops will not be able to hold back the pressure and your bags will fill up. This is why Supra was using the sprinkler valves, to stop water from entering the bags.
The only other option if you choose to leave the scupper on the intake is to manually turn off your system with the ball valve when you are not using it. I did not want to have to lift the seat up/cooler every time I wanted to fill the system and then have to turn it back off after the bags were full.
thanks...don't know whenI'll get this far, but you're install looks amazing and I would assume works as well! The brass Tee's reminded me of a bathroom tub I installed!!!!
87SunSportMikeyD
08-05-2009, 11:17 AM
Okay I was just curious about the drains because many aerator systems use an electronic gate valve to keep everything from draining back out. If you find a good way to eliminate that and the system is simplified.
Does their aerator system drain out the overflow/vent holes as opposed to the fill holes on bottom of boat? How do you like that?
Okay I was just curious about the drains because many aerator systems use an electronic gate valve to keep everything from draining back out. If you find a good way to eliminate that and the system is simplified.
Does their aerator system drain out the overflow/vent holes as opposed to the fill holes on bottom of boat? How do you like that?
Yes if the bag over fills it will drain out the exit hole on the side of the boat. I usually just keep them on fill until I see the water coming out and know its time to shut off the pumps.
tjonas1
08-05-2009, 11:05 PM
FMan,
How are you pumping your bags dry? Are you using, what looks like a third pump in your picture for that?
FMan,
How are you pumping your bags dry? Are you using, what looks like a third pump in your picture for that?
Bags drain with stock pumps from Supra, one on each bag, I did not modify any of the drainage system from stock. The Tsunami's are only to fill the bags, not drain them. There is a seperate pump for each bag to drain them.
moombadaze
08-11-2009, 08:01 AM
One simple reason the bags dont drain thru the empty pump is the drain hole on the side of the boat is higher that the level of water in the bag.
87SunSportMikeyD
08-11-2009, 10:42 AM
Thank you!
That is also the first really good reason I can think (IMHO) to have the drain routed through the vent/overflow hole.
One simple reason the bags dont drain thru the empty pump is the drain hole on the side of the boat is higher that the level of water in the bag.
???? As long as the drain pump is lower than the bags/drain line it should drain with no problems. The pump has plenty of power to get the water to the exit hole even though it is higher than the pump itself. You will loose a little efficieny because of the friction loss. My pump is in the lower engine compartment, which is lower than the drain line coming from the bags. One thing that will create problems with these bags draining is having air pockets in them with an aerator pump. This is another reason I am adding a seperate vent line for each bag when filling to eliminate the air build up you get while filling them.
moombadaze
08-14-2009, 08:35 AM
One simple reason the bags dont drain thru the empty pump is the drain hole on the side of the boat is higher that the level of water in the bag.
Sorry, should have added- when the empty pump is off.
87SunSportMikeyD
08-14-2009, 10:31 AM
fman I was trying to clarify this point because that is a common problem with aerator systems - how to stop the bags from draining out the drain pumps when the pumps are turned off. They do not stop the flow of water by themselves. Most people use a gate valve. But like moombadaze says if "the drain hole on the side of the boat is higher that the level of water in the bag," then if there is no syphon effect (or you use vented loop) you should be good to go.
jeilers1
08-14-2009, 12:59 PM
mine drains out the empty pump line when surfing. If you fill the bags full, then throttle on the water pressure increases and runs out the drain thru-hull. I put in a ball valve on the empty line to keep water in. Easy to do, but kind of a pita lifting seats to turn the valve to empty.
mine drains out the empty pump line when surfing. If you fill the bags full, then throttle on the water pressure increases and runs out the drain thru-hull. I put in a ball valve on the empty line to keep water in. Easy to do, but kind of a pita lifting seats to turn the valve to empty.
I installed the vented loops, they seem to be working great. Basic concept, but gets the job done.
broland
08-19-2009, 02:58 PM
Fman,
Do you think the Tsunamis 1200 pumps would that be much more difficult to install instead of the 800's, to get the extra flow, or is there a reason you didnt go with those?
Fman,
Do you think the Tsunamis 1200 pumps would that be much more difficult to install instead of the 800's, to get the extra flow, or is there a reason you didnt go with those?
The 1200's use a thread pattern that has no fittings for it, that is why I chose to go with the 800's. You will get 6 more GPM with the 1200's, but for less headaches, I chose to go with the 800's and the 3/4" NPT fittings. I have seen on the Moomba site someone used the 1200's, not as clean of a setup but he got it to work. With the 800's everything looks nice and professionally done. You will also need to drill additional holes (2) in your boat with seperate intakes for each pump with the 1200's. One 3/4" intake will cap out at about 40 GPM which is about what you are getting with all 3-800's drafting from one intake. If you ran (3) 1200's from one intake it would defeat the purpose.
Just my .02, for more info on the 1200's contact Jason at wakemakers.com, he was actually the one recommended the 800's to me because of the problems with the 1200 fittings.
I have been very happy with my 800's, I am filling 1900 lbs in about 9 minutes. I rarely fill this much, so usually I am at about a 5-6 min fill time for wakeboarding and surfing. Noneless, much faster than the stock system with no priming headaches or draining problems, especially now that all my bags are vented properly.
TayTay
01-19-2010, 08:55 AM
FMAN, I am looking at just starting with the venting system for the stock ballast system that I have. My question is what is the purpose of the 3 3/4" double barbed male fittings? I don't see where they fit into the picture. You have a hose running from the quick disconnect on the third vent in the bag to the "Y" fitting installed as close as possible to the through hull drain fitting, all of which are barbed so why do you need the double barbed fitting? Attached is a drawing of what I think it should look like. Thanks for the info.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/TaylorAR/Boat/Vent.jpg
Tay,
You are correct, I dont see why you would need the double barbed fittings. They are only used to extend hose lengths from and existing hose. Sorry about that, I will need to make that correction.
Your system looks good, it should work fine.
ScottnAz
03-17-2010, 11:07 AM
Fman - thanks for the great write-up, I've got my account setup with wakemakers and am filling the cart for the order.
A couple things got me thinking, both regarding venting the bags
1. I wonder if all three bags could be tied in to one check valve/vent line. It seems like it could work since it's just air getting pushed out, although, what would keep the bags from venting in to one another. And for that matter, if a bag over fills and tries to push water out the vent line it may just end up filling another bag. Suppose I just talked my way right through that thought..... thanks for listening :)
2. If the bag is being vented, is there still a need for the anti-siphon loop on the fill side? The anti-siphon valve is basically there to create an air gap in the system so water won't be pushed/pulled in to a closed system. So, in essence, couldn't the "air gap" be located anywhere on the system? ie: bag vent located above draft line? Although, the anti-siphon loop helps prevent back-draining of the bag.
Certainly not trying to reinvent the wheel here, just some random thoughts I had.
Here's what I've got in my cart,
Attwood Tsunami 800 GPH Ballast Pump (x3)
Fly High Tsunami 800 / 3/4" Hose Barb Adapater W745 (x3)
3/4" Vented Loop Anti-siphon Valve (x3)
3/4" Non-Return Check Valve Fitting (x3)
3/4" Hose Barb Tee Fitting (x3)
Fly High 3/4" Straight Flow-Rite Quick Release Connector W740 (x3)
Fly High 3/4" Flow-Rite Quick Release Connect W736 (x3)
Last summer we found ballast hose at ACE Hardware, and everything else for the manifold can be sourced at Home Depot? Thanks again
Fman - thanks for the great write-up, I've got my account setup with wakemakers and am filling the cart for the order.
A couple things got me thinking, both regarding venting the bags
1. I wonder if all three bags could be tied in to one check valve/vent line. It seems like it could work since it's just air getting pushed out, although, what would keep the bags from venting in to one another. And for that matter, if a bag over fills and tries to push water out the vent line it may just end up filling another bag. Suppose I just talked my way right through that thought..... thanks for listening :)
2. If the bag is being vented, is there still a need for the anti-siphon loop on the fill side? The anti-siphon valve is basically there to create an air gap in the system so water won't be pushed/pulled in to a closed system. So, in essence, couldn't the "air gap" be located anywhere on the system? ie: bag vent located above draft line? Although, the anti-siphon loop helps prevent back-draining of the bag.
Certainly not trying to reinvent the wheel here, just some random thoughts I had.
Here's what I've got in my cart,
Attwood Tsunami 800 GPH Ballast Pump (x3)
Fly High Tsunami 800 / 3/4" Hose Barb Adapater W745 (x3)
3/4" Vented Loop Anti-siphon Valve (x3)
3/4" Non-Return Check Valve Fitting (x3)
3/4" Hose Barb Tee Fitting (x3)
Fly High 3/4" Straight Flow-Rite Quick Release Connector W740 (x3)
Fly High 3/4" Flow-Rite Quick Release Connect W736 (x3)
Last summer we found ballast hose at ACE Hardware, and everything else for the manifold can be sourced at Home Depot? Thanks again
Scott,
Sounds like you are off to a great start, and I chose to run the anti-siphon on each bag so water would not drain back into the bag. You dont need an anti-syphon on the fill side, this what the vented loops will do to eliminate water from coming into your system while driving the boat. I like having a seperate vent on each bag because when they fill it will start to pour out the thru holes in the side of the boat to let you know they are full.
Just make sure and mount the 800's as close to the bottom of the boat as possible, the lower the better for no hassle priming. If there are any other questions you have let me know, I can always give you my cell # to talk voice if need be. Its a pretty straight forward system, I have been very happy with it and it has been very reliable. Soooooo much better than the sprinkler valves!!! I think you will be very pleased, I can fill 1900 lbs of ballast in about 8-9 minutes.... which is acceptable to me. This is roughly about 30 GPM total with all three pumps running.
The only item I did not put back in my system was a water strainer, I have never had any problems with debris, but this is also another item that could be added. If you are in mucky, dirty water a lot it might not be a bad idea.
jasonwm
03-17-2010, 06:37 PM
1. I wonder if all three bags could be tied in to one check valve/vent line. It seems like it could work since it's just air getting pushed out, although, what would keep the bags from venting in to one another. And for that matter, if a bag over fills and tries to push water out the vent line it may just end up filling another bag. Suppose I just talked my way right through that thought..... thanks for listening :)
There are a few reasons why we don't recommend sharing one thru-hull for venting purposes:
a. If all three bags are full and venting at the same time, you'll actually have water flowing through that fitting at a rate of (800GPH-loses)*3, which could exceed the capacity of the thru-hull connector. In that case you could potentially damage the bags or boat.
b. With all three bags tied to the same connection you lose any indication of which bag is full. This wouldn't be a problem if you're filling all three bags (except for the issue above), but if you're only filling two for surfing, you won't know which one is full, which can be a pain. Having a discrete connection for each bag to vent out of that is located more or less near the bag will give you a visual and audible indication of when that bag is full based on where the water is coming out of the boat (front, rear starboard, rear port).
c. If you do that ideally you'd want a check valve on each line to prevent water from back flowing into a bag that you want to be empty. For example, if you're surfing and filling the left rear bag you don't want the right rear bag to fill from the vent line. All of those check valves add a lot of cost (way more than the extra thru-hull fittings), and it gets pretty tough to fit them all under the gunnel.
2. If the bag is being vented, is there still a need for the anti-siphon loop on the fill side? The anti-siphon valve is basically there to create an air gap in the system so water won't be pushed/pulled in to a closed system. So, in essence, couldn't the "air gap" be located anywhere on the system? ie: bag vent located above draft line? Although, the anti-siphon loop helps prevent back-draining of the bag.
The vented loop breaks the siphon effect that can occur regardless of whether or not there is a vent connection to the bag or not. In fact venting will actually increase the likelihood of the volume of water in the bag changing because air can easily enter or exit the bag to make up for the change in water.
Trust me, we've tried every way around vented loops you can imagine, and I'm pretty sure Travis asked all of the same questions too, unfortunately there just isn't one.
Here's what I've got in my cart,
Attwood Tsunami 800 GPH Ballast Pump (x3)
Fly High Tsunami 800 / 3/4" Hose Barb Adapater W745 (x3)
3/4" Vented Loop Anti-siphon Valve (x3)
3/4" Non-Return Check Valve Fitting (x3)
3/4" Hose Barb Tee Fitting (x3)
Fly High 3/4" Straight Flow-Rite Quick Release Connector W740 (x3)
Fly High 3/4" Flow-Rite Quick Release Connect W736 (x3)
Last summer we found ballast hose at ACE Hardware, and everything else for the manifold can be sourced at Home Depot? Thanks again
Looks good, but give one of us a call and we can set you up with the drain pump adapter fittings and everything else you need that's not available for purchase directly through the store.
Our hose is better than what you'll find at ACE, Lowes or Home Depot because it won't kink, and is NMMA rated for applications in the bilge. It should also be cheaper, BICBW. Same goes for manifold components, you don't want to use brass you can find at plumbing supply stores because it will undergo galvanic corrosion and fail in short order. Plus, our fittings are cheaper and lighter, which is important when you're using a thru-hull without a seacock as the factory has done.
Anyone else that is interested in performing this upgrade is free to give us a call. We've done dozens of boats now, and we offer system planning for free, so you might as well take advantage of it. :)
Jason is the "guru" of ballast systems (he works for www.wakemakers.com, he got me set up last season.... Jason, thanks for chiming in, your input is always appreciated :D
dusty2221
03-17-2010, 11:12 PM
Hey Fman, I sent you a pm.
Jason, regarding galvanic corrosion and brass components, what is causing failure in a ballast enviroment so quickly when these brass fittings are used in home plumbing applications with water passing through 24/7 for years on end with no problem? Don't get me wrong, I've seen some corroded ones, but they are generally really old.
Just curious. ( I've got my "cart" saved on your website ready to do this project)
Same goes for manifold components, you don't want to use brass you can find at plumbing supply stores because it will undergo galvanic corrosion and fail in short order. Plus, our fittings are cheaper and lighter, which is important when you're using a thru-hull without a seacock as the factory has done.
Jason,
I used brass 3/4" fittings for my manifold, I always thought brass would hold up with good corrosion protection and it is much stronger than PVC. They use it in houses for years with no rust problems, I figured it would be no problem in the boat especially because it only has water in it when the boat is in the water. The shut-off valve Skiers Choice put in the boat is brass, along with the scupper intake grate.
I guess I should eventually expect problems??? So far I have seen no leaking, how long should I expect the manifold to last? Guess the worst case scenario is I have to make a new manifold out of PVC, hopefully that wont have to be anytime soon.
FMAN, I am looking at just starting with the venting system for the stock ballast system that I have. My question is what is the purpose of the 3 3/4" double barbed male fittings? I don't see where they fit into the picture. You have a hose running from the quick disconnect on the third vent in the bag to the "Y" fitting installed as close as possible to the through hull drain fitting, all of which are barbed so why do you need the double barbed fitting? Attached is a drawing of what I think it should look like. Thanks for the info.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/TaylorAR/Boat/Vent.jpg
Tay,
"You will need a couple 3/4" double male barbed fittings to attach the no-kink bilge line to the existing stock drain lines. I would cut it just behind or near the sidewall and re-run the no-kink from this point. The 3/4" double male barbed fittings are available at Lowes, wakemakers did not sell them."
If you are completely re-routing new lines this is not necessary. I had problems with the stock drain lines actually kinking up from the weight of the bags, the ribbed hose wakemakers sells is much stronger and will not kink up.
Hope this answers your questions, your drawing looks good. If you have any more questions please ask.
Travis....
dusty2221
03-18-2010, 03:51 PM
Inregards to adding an inline strainer, I found this while browsing around. It looks like it could easily be tied in directly after the manual shut off valve on the thru hull.
Thoughts?
http://www.boaterbarn.com/jabsco_pumpgard_low_profile_inline_7027_prd1.htm
Inregards to adding an inline strainer, I found this while browsing around. It looks like it could easily be tied in directly after the manual shut off valve on the thru hull.
Thoughts?
http://www.boaterbarn.com/jabsco_pumpgard_low_profile_inline_7027_prd1.htm
That looks good, I would just make sure it is not going to slow down your fill times by reducing the 3/4" to a smaller size inside the filter chamber. This is the main reason I did not choose to have a filter.
dusty2221
03-18-2010, 05:05 PM
True that. I don't want to defeat the purpose of the whole mod!
I got your PM reply, but then confused myself again. In my drawing did I have the check valve in the right spot?
ScottnAz
03-22-2010, 08:11 PM
Placed my order with wakemakers on Thursday for all the parts to do the fill pump change-over, bag venting, and drain pump relocations. Just waiting for it to ship/arrive so I can get started on the modifications. It's a moment of anxiety and excitement. Obviously, excitement for the upgrade and anxiety that all goes well with the installations.
Another recommendation for wakemakers. Jason took plenty of time to make sure I understood what I was ordering and how it all worked within the system. Very knowledgeable
Hey Fman, I sent you a pm.
Jason, regarding galvanic corrosion and brass components, what is causing failure in a ballast enviroment so quickly when these brass fittings are used in home plumbing applications with water passing through 24/7 for years on end with no problem? Don't get me wrong, I've seen some corroded ones, but they are generally really old.
Just curious. ( I've got my "cart" saved on your website ready to do this project)
I guess I am still confused? I dont see how they are going to fail in my boat, I guess time will tell. I really like the brass manifold, its strong and will never break. Guess time will tell on the corrosion process.
Placed my order with wakemakers on Thursday for all the parts to do the fill pump change-over, bag venting, and drain pump relocations. Just waiting for it to ship/arrive so I can get started on the modifications. It's a moment of anxiety and excitement. Obviously, excitement for the upgrade and anxiety that all goes well with the installations.
Another recommendation for wakemakers. Jason took plenty of time to make sure I understood what I was ordering and how it all worked within the system. Very knowledgeable
You will be very pleased with this system, it works great. Soooo much better than the sprinkler valves.
ScottnAz
03-29-2010, 10:58 PM
Another recommendation for wakemakers. Jason took plenty of time to make sure I understood what I was ordering and how it all worked within the system. Very knowledgeable
Fu$*ing Supraboats.com..... I just spent the time to blast wakemakers.com for their lack of customer service and communication, and wouldn't you know that my session timed out while I was typing. Knowledgeable.... yes.....Proficient and communicative.....absolutely not.
Long story short, I expected my order last Tuesday and it still hasn't shipped. I even went as far as to tell them to completely remove the backordered items from the order and that I would source them elsewhere. Not surprising, no response from them. In fact, it took 3 straight days of emails to get a response. Oh, give them a call you say.... been there, done that. Sat on hold until the cows came home with no mention of hours or availability. I guess the one good thing with the delay is I was able to remove the backordered part from my order today because I can reuse the parts from my original setup. Order still hasn't shipped, however.
Freakin 88 degress here tomorrow, and I have no ballast system to speak of because I ripped out the old in anticipation of the new......LAST WEEK!! Of course, my windows are still with the tint guy though :rolleyes: But who needs windshields to surf @ 10.7mph? Ballast on the other hand....
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n315/woodwrangler/untitled.jpg
Thanks for letting me rant, now back to my beer :cool:
Fu$*ing Supraboats.com..... I just spent the time to blast wakemakers.com for their lack of customer service and communication, and wouldn't you know that my session timed out while I was typing. Knowledgeable.... yes.....Proficient and communicative.....absolutely not.
Long story short, I expected my order last Tuesday and it still hasn't shipped. I even went as far as to tell them to completely remove the backordered items from the order and that I would source them elsewhere. Not surprising, no response from them. In fact, it took 3 straight days of emails to get a response. Oh, give them a call you say.... been there, done that. Sat on hold until the cows came home with no mention of hours or availability. I guess the one good thing with the delay is I was able to remove the backordered part from my order today because I can reuse the parts from my original setup. Order still hasn't shipped, however.
Freakin 88 degress here tomorrow, and I have no ballast system to speak of because I ripped out the old in anticipation of the new......LAST WEEK!! Of course, my windows are still with the tint guy though :rolleyes: But who needs windshields to surf @ 10.7mph? Ballast on the other hand....
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n315/woodwrangler/untitled.jpg
Thanks for letting me rant, now back to my beer :cool:
Ask for Jason, hopefully he can get you going in the right direction. If memory serves me right, I did run into a shipping problem with them as well. Keep calling them and they will come through for you, sorry you are having problems. Good news is, you can install this entire system in one day no problem.
And if it makes you feel any better, I have been expecting my new guidepole covers/rub rail for my swim platform for over two weeks from Viper Customs. They just informed me yesterday they never sent it and just today I finally got a tracking number that it has been shipped!
ScottnAz
03-30-2010, 09:23 PM
I guess we shouldn't have waited until the last minute... huh?
I've been dealing with Jason since day 1, but just needed to vent last night. I got an email about midnight that my order had shipped, although UPS isn't showing a record of it yet, so we shall see.
80's all weekend, I better get out there
Dont worry its only March!!! You have plenty of time left to get out on the water... did you ever end up getting your windows back?
ScottnAz
03-31-2010, 11:17 PM
Only March??? I can't believe it's ALREADY March, heck, now April. Time flies as you age
Ballast order is on the way, UPS shows it in Nevada, so hopefully I'll have it to install this weekend.
No windows yet. I spoke with the dealer on Friday, and they said they'd be done Monday. Monday and Tuesday came and went, so I called this afternoon. Apparently the tint guy took them to his shop over the weekend, and they haven't heard from him yet. I wonder if I should start watching craigslist for my windshields?
ScottnAz
04-02-2010, 07:21 PM
Now we're cooking with gas!
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n315/woodwrangler/photo-28.jpg
ProZach415
05-02-2010, 07:51 PM
For all you penny pinchers out there like me I found the Tsunami 800 for $25 this weekend at Academy Sports!
Scott,
Be careful using that black bilge line, it kinks real easy.... I dont know why they did not sell you the ribbed stuff, its a lot more durable and easier to work with.
jasonwm
05-06-2010, 06:22 PM
I think you may be confusing the hose in the picture with another product, as even our standard hose is pretty resistant to kinking (it's got an internal rib to resist crushing and kinking). It's certainly not as tough as the premium hose we carry, but is more the sufficient for the job.
I think you may be confusing the hose in the picture with another product, as even our standard hose is pretty resistant to kinking (it's got an internal rib to resist crushing and kinking). It's certainly not as tough as the premium hose we carry, but is more the sufficient for the job.
That hose looks alot like the stock stuff that came with my boat, hopefully its a more upgraded version than skiers choice used. I would always have problems draining the bags because of the line kinking.
ScottnAz
05-07-2010, 11:07 AM
The hose is very similar to the OEM ballast hose in my boat. It was flexible and easy to route, and I don't think I'll have a problem with kinking. The hardest part was getting the fittings pushed in to the hoses', tore my hands up.
The system is all complete, and has been through a few lake tests. Everything seems to be working great. The only thing I'd like to change is the drain pump locations. I installed them so they have direct connect with the bags, instead of in the engine compartment, for more consistent and reliable draining of the bags. To preserve room in the rear lockers, I installed them on the front of the bag, up against the rear seat. Now the bags don't completely empty, whereas, I used to be able to get the last bit of water out of the bags while driving. It's not that big of deal, I just unhook the rear bag vent and roll the bag up like a towel to get the remaining water out and allow the compartment floor to dry from the days events. I'll try it this way for the summer, and re-assess the situation during the break in the season from Dec-Jan. :D
The hose is very similar to the OEM ballast hose in my boat. It was flexible and easy to route, and I don't think I'll have a problem with kinking. The hardest part was getting the fittings pushed in to the hoses', tore my hands up.
The system is all complete, and has been through a few lake tests. Everything seems to be working great. The only thing I'd like to change is the drain pump locations. I installed them so they have direct connect with the bags, instead of in the engine compartment, for more consistent and reliable draining of the bags. To preserve room in the rear lockers, I installed them on the front of the bag, up against the rear seat. Now the bags don't completely empty, whereas, I used to be able to get the last bit of water out of the bags while driving. It's not that big of deal, I just unhook the rear bag vent and roll the bag up like a towel to get the remaining water out and allow the compartment floor to dry from the days events. I'll try it this way for the summer, and re-assess the situation during the break in the season from Dec-Jan. :D
Hey Scott, great job. I did the same with the drain pumps, except I have mine off the back of them and it works great, I can get about 95% of the water out of the bags. Getting them out of the heated engine compartment is a great idea, and if one takes a dump they are very easy to replace this way.
Heres a couple pics of the rear drains and the flexible upgraded line I really like.
tg0824SSVGG
05-07-2010, 04:24 PM
Travis -- (I see your shower in there!)
Did you wrap those hose clamps with tape or something? Those look like a BAG slicer in
these pictures ...
Travis -- (I see your shower in there!)
Did you wrap those hose clamps with tape or something? Those look like a BAG slicer in
these pictures ...
They are wrapped with some heavy duty black gorilla tape, still not happy with the results, ran them all last year with no wraps and did not have any problems. The lower ones are turned so nothing sharp can touch any of the bags. I thought about ordering the clamps/tool and re-doing them, just have not had the time to get to it.... probably will be my winter time project this year.
KY Steve
05-10-2010, 09:52 AM
Has anyone done this in a 24?
I have all the goodies but after looking at the space it looks tight for the 3 pumps, manifold and ball valve.
ScottnAz
05-10-2010, 11:15 AM
I, too, doubted the fitment in my 22 and contemplated ditching the ball valve to conserve space, however, was able to get it all in there.
Mock-up the manifold and pumps and get creative about the space. It looks like Fmans' is running towards the rear of the boat? I've got my manifold running towards the front of the boat at a ~20 degree angle towards the port side, with one pump straight up, one pump at a ~45 degree angle, and the last pump flat coming out of the manifold end. I did have to cut down the height of the thru-hull so the manifold would sit tighter to the bottom of the boat. It's pretty tight, but just fit. I'll take some pictures next time I uncover the boat.
Like I said, I thought about losing the ball valve and running one of the manifold T's straight off the thru-hull, then having one pump lay horizontal towards the transom, and the other two pumps towards the bow with one vertical and one horizontal. But, alas, I thought it would be best to keep the valve just in case.
Matt Laird
06-14-2010, 07:45 PM
Hey Scott, great job. I did the same with the drain pumps, except I have mine off the back of them and it works great, I can get about 95% of the water out of the bags. Getting them out of the heated engine compartment is a great idea, and if one takes a dump they are very easy to replace this way.
Heres a couple pics of the rear drains and the flexible upgraded line I really like.
When did you decide to swap out the drain pumps? I have all the parts for this mod just wondering if I should plan on swapping out all 6 pumps...
ScottnAz
06-14-2010, 08:37 PM
As long as your drain pumps are working fine, I wouldn't bother swapping them out at this point. What I did do, however, is re-locate them so they are directly connected to the bag. My rear drain pumps would not work consistently, and in speaking with Jason @ wakemakers, it was suggested to relocate them. This will help remove the possibility of an air gap forming in the hose from the bag to the pump, and make them more reliable. Wakemakers made up the new direct connections for me. They are @ the very bottom left of this picture. I didn't need one for my center sac because it was already done.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n315/woodwrangler/photo-28.jpg
jasonwm
06-15-2010, 01:53 AM
If you're having problems with your drain pumps working reliably then relocating them will solve that problem (especially for the left rear bag).
If your drain pumps are working at all then you need to replace them.
LloydP
06-15-2010, 07:30 AM
Hey Jason, by relocating the rear drain pumps, do you mean screwing them directly to the bag, as I have seen you suggest before?
Thanks.
KY Steve
06-15-2010, 08:02 AM
Used my new system this weekend and it worked great with one pump running, but when I turned on a second it really decreased the water flow. Wondering if its the valve on the intake not allowing enough water in?
Hey Jason, any chance of getting a group buy discount for us Supra owners on the 1100lb sac? :D
Matt Laird
08-04-2010, 11:11 PM
Thanks for the help guys, Jason i'll be waiting on the UPS man...
Used my new system this weekend and it worked great with one pump running, but when I turned on a second it really decreased the water flow. Wondering if its the valve on the intake not allowing enough water in?
Hey Jason, any chance of getting a group buy discount for us Supra owners on the 1100lb sac? :D
Steve,
If I am not mistaken you should be able to get about 40 GPM out of a 3/4" intake, so it should not slow down too much when all three pumps are running.
However, the 800's are rated for 13.4 GPM but after all the friction loss and going through the vented loops, I am only getting about 10 GPM into the bags. I will say after two seasons without the sprinkler valves it has been working awesome, reliable and simple.
ScottnAz
08-05-2010, 11:19 AM
I must say, I've been very pleased with the upgrade in the 3 months I've been using it. I haven't measured/calculated the GPM, but it is much better than the sprinkler valves, and that's good enough in my book. If I were to do it over, I probably would have added a 2nd thru-hull and separated the rears from center pump, and gone with the 1200's vs. the 8's, although I haven't done the calculations to make sure it would be much more efficient.
Only problem I've been experiencing is surging with my center pump. There are times it won't pump a solid stream of water, it more or less spits and surges. The bag eventually fills, but I need to find the time to look in to the problem.
I must say, I've been very pleased with the upgrade in the 3 months I've been using it. I haven't measured/calculated the GPM, but it is much better than the sprinkler valves, and that's good enough in my book. If I were to do it over, I probably would have added a 2nd thru-hull and separated the rears from center pump, and gone with the 1200's vs. the 8's, although I haven't done the calculations to make sure it would be much more efficient.
Only problem I've been experiencing is surging with my center pump. There are times it won't pump a solid stream of water, it more or less spits and surges. The bag eventually fills, but I need to find the time to look in to the problem.
Should be getting at least 30 GPM with all three pumps running, the stock system only had a 20 GPM rule, which did not even put out close to that.
As far the sputtering on the center pump, sound like you are getting air in the system somehow. Does it do it all the time, or just when you put the boat in the water? When you put in the water you should be able to see water in all three lines above the pumps.
ScottnAz
08-05-2010, 11:52 AM
Thanks Travis, I'll take a look next time I'm out.
I'm always just so excited to get behind the boat that I keep telling myself I'll look at the problem later.
Thanks Travis, I'll take a look next time I'm out.
I'm always just so excited to get behind the boat that I keep telling myself I'll look at the problem later.
Been there done that many times myself!
chrisk
03-17-2011, 03:16 PM
First off I just wanted to say how awesome this thread is, great work guys there's a lot of great information in here. Although I'm not doing an "upgrade" to an existing ballast system, I am planning on installing a similar system and I just want to run it by all of you for advice, do's, don't's, and tips. Basically just to make sure I have all the bases covered, right materials etc.
I'm including two pics; one of the "diagram" I've created for what I want to do and a second that acts as a key for the diagram and a list of materials. Do I have all the materials included? Does the diagram look correct? Do I NOT need any of the materials?
FMan, how much did your brass manifold cost you? Anyone have the PVC one from wakemakers and if so, any problems with it? Thanks for the help, hopefully these pics work.
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/boatballast_Page_1.jpg
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/boatballast_Page_2.jpg
FMan, how much did your brass manifold cost you? Anyone have the PVC one from wakemakers and if so, any problems with it? Thanks for the help, hopefully these pics work.
I would just go with Wakemakers and save the money, I cant remember the cost but it was pretty expensive because of all the brass pieces.
I am getting ready to install a similar surf system in my VLX, I also found out wakemakers has changed up a couple items. You will need a one way check valve on the fill lines to the bags, apparently when the boat is driving it is sucking water out of the bags once water is filled in them. The water flowing under the boat creates a negative drag and pulls water out.
They are also not recommending using "vented loops" anymore. If you run the fill line up and over the rear compartment area (as high up as possible) you will not get any water in the bags when driving the boat.
They also are now selling the RULE 1100GPH tournament series ballast pump, which has a 3/4" NPT thread to 1" outlet. I am going with these pumps, they put out about 18GPM which is really good, you will fill a 750lb sac in about 5 minutes. Also going to use them for the drain pumps. I think they run about $50 a piece.
jasonwm
03-18-2011, 03:31 PM
Chris-
Your diagram looks good, and I don't see anything I would recommend changing. We have a lot of customers doing simple aerator pump based ballast systems like this, so I think you'll be really happy with the results.
Just a couple of comments:
- With only two fill pumps you won't really need a "manifold", you'll basically just need to split the supply to feed two pumps using one of our intake tee fittings.
- As long as you have a ball valve attached directly to your thru-hull you don't need to use bronze (definitely don't use brass in a boat, it will corrode), and plastic is cheaper and lighter.
- Depending on what size pumps you're planning on using for filling that may necessitate upgrading to a larger intake.
- You have a check valve between the fill pump and bow bags, but you're missing one between the fill pump and rear bag, so add one more to your parts list.
- Assuming that you will always be filling and draining both bow bags at the same rate (since you have a single common fill pump), you could combine the two vents and two drains together, instead of combining the vent and drain from each bag. That would allow you to lose the check valves, which would reduce your cost by ~$30 (if you buy the check valves from us).
I am getting ready to install a similar surf system in my VLX, I also found out wakemakers has changed up a couple items. You will need a one way check valve on the fill lines to the bags, apparently when the boat is driving it is sucking water out of the bags once water is filled in them. The water flowing under the boat creates a negative drag and pulls water out.
They are also not recommending using "vented loops" anymore. If you run the fill line up and over the rear compartment area (as high up as possible) you will not get any water in the bags when driving the boat.
Careful making blanket statements with the information we give you, our conversation regarding check valves vs. vented loops was specific to your setup, and certainly doesn't apply to all systems. :D
They also are now selling the RULE 1100GPH tournament series ballast pump, which has a 3/4" NPT thread to 1" outlet. I am going with these pumps, they put out about 18GPM which is really good, you will fill a 750lb sac in about 5 minutes. Also going to use them for the drain pumps. I think they run about $50 a piece.
We've been really impressed with these pumps so far, and while they're a little more than a 1200GPH Attwood Tsunami, they don't require any additional adapters to install (so the net price is essentially identical), take up less space, and they include both the straight and elbow discharge fitting, which is a huge advantage when installing the system.
chrisk
03-18-2011, 03:39 PM
JasonWm,
Could you post a link for what you would recommend to take place of a manifold? I'm not quite following you.
Thanks for the heads up on the check valve. I made a conscious decision to remove that because I was simply thinking that when on plane the sac would be lower and water wouldn't rush out. But I completely forgot to take in account when the boat is just sitting at idle and the bag is higher, as well as negative pressure from water rushing past that hole. Silly...
Anything else guys? Still looking for two bags, between 200-400#'s if anyone has some or sees some for sale.
chrisk
03-18-2011, 03:45 PM
Also Jason, the reason I have two separate systems set up for both bow bags is because I want to be able to remove one and keep the other. I don't do a lot of surfing, but when I do I would like to be able to remove that front right bag, set it beside the engine on the port side and fill it up. I was planning on having a valve that I can manually turn off and on on that front right bag so that I can fill just the left and not the right. Then, I was going to have a T-Joint before the stern sac with another manual valve after it so I can close the valve and connect the second hose of the T-Joint to the bag lying on the floor and fill it up. (I would just have that second hose lying beside or on top of the stern sac when not in use).
Does this make sense? Do you think that system will work? I'm just trying to avoid buying a fourth sac and a $100 Tsunami pump to manually fill a sac for surfing.
chrisk
03-18-2011, 05:32 PM
All of that said, if I leave everything the way it is right now, are the check valves even necessary on the drain lines?
docdrs
03-18-2011, 10:48 PM
All of that said, if I leave everything the way it is right now, are the check valves even necessary on the drain lines?
I didn't read everything , just looked at the diagram and see no reason to have the check valves on the drain lines at all.If anything you want them on your vent lines and even then , with the y connector they probably are not doing much as you are going to eventually drain the bag anyways. You may want to route your rear vent line forward to prevent siphoning during a surf session or you could just put a cork in the thru hull on the surf sides to prevent this. You also only need 1/2" vent lines, but then you need a 1/2 / 3/4 y which may be hard to find or you could just go all 1/2 vent discharge as time is not usually a matter when draining. Just an opinion .......:)
Ptownkid
03-19-2011, 12:45 AM
can someone explain why people use $200 reversible pumps that have half the flow rate of a $50 pump?
docdrs
03-19-2011, 01:33 AM
can someone explain why people use $200 reversible pumps that have half the flow rate of a $50 pump?
http://www.moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=14074
here is an actual comparison that was done of various systems, I have the jabsco and verified my results on you tube as were some of the other mods......not promoting mine as it is my oem but will give you more info for your app. jesse has an awesome upgrade and what I would consider if mine was not comparable....I have an aux sub pum that I want install on my port side and see if it decreases fill times more but I have not had time to do this as I'm all ready getting the lowest fill times I have seen .
Really , fill times are usu all that are important unless you are going from goofy to reg for surfing in which case its a matter of fill and drain times,and are you set up to do this? ie can you separate left from right side completely?
chrisk
03-19-2011, 01:24 PM
docdrs, I'm going with all 3/4 because I do a lot of slaloming as well and I would like to be able to drain quickly also. I believe 3/4 is the standard size to fit on the pumps and most fittings anyway.
Thanks for the advice on taking the check valves out of the equation on the drain lines, anyone else have an opinion on this?
Ptownkid
03-19-2011, 04:41 PM
here is an actual comparison that was done of various systems, I have the jabsco and verified my results on you tube as were some of the other mods......not promoting mine as it is my oem but will give you more info for your app. jesse has an awesome upgrade and what I would consider if mine was not comparable....I have an aux sub pum that I want install on my port side and see if it decreases fill times more but I have not had time to do this as I'm all ready getting the lowest fill times I have seen .
Really , fill times are usu all that are important unless you are going from goofy to reg for surfing in which case its a matter of fill and drain times,and are you set up to do this? ie can you separate left from right side completely?
Totally not trying to be rude...but is there actually an answer to my question contained in there somewhere, lol.
chrisk
03-19-2011, 05:11 PM
Are the quick disconnects really necessary for the bags I will be leaving in place? Or can I just not pay for those, buy these, screw them into the bags and connect the hose?
http://www.wakemakers.com/1-2-to-3-4-inch-barb-adapter.html
"Careful making blanket statements with the information we give you, our conversation regarding check valves vs. vented loops was specific to your setup, and certainly doesn't apply to all systems."
Good point, not trying to steer him in the wrong direction. I did mention he should give you guys a call to discuss the system.
Chris-
- As long as you have a ball valve attached directly to your thru-hull you don't need to use bronze (definitely don't use brass in a boat, it will corrode), and plastic is cheaper and lighter.
.
Jason,
What causes brass to corrode in a boat? I am not saying you are incorrect, just wanted to find out how this occurs? They sell "brass thru hull" fittings for boats. I had my manifold for two years in my Supra and never had any problems.
http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/eval-marine-accessories/boats-brass-thru-hull-fittings-23586-217151.html
docdrs
03-19-2011, 07:44 PM
Totally not trying to be rude...but is there actually an answer to my question contained in there somewhere, lol.
Ptown.... was just putting more info into the differences not answering your question. realized I forgot to put the link in the post as well (pwi).
3 less pumps, no one way valves, 3 less sets of drain lines, no vented loops, less space required for pumps, and you will not get the same fill/drain times unless you go to 1" lines. Also in the timings a 3800 rule pump was being used to get down below the times I get. I can fill/drain at a rate of approx 100 lbs a minute per pump verified on video. Not sure what a 800 tsunami can do but I bet thru a 3/4" line its more like 30 percent slower. But I am hoping someone can prove me wrong. I found a mod that used the 1200 tsunami's on 1 inch intakes and 1 inch lines that is taking around 5 mins to fill a 750....thats fast and quicker than my jabscos.
So although the pumps are more money, you need less of them and less parts, so not sure how much cheaper the system really is.
can someone explain why people use $200 reversible pumps that have half the flow rate of a $50 pump?
Heres a few facts about Aerator and Impeller pumps:
Reversible JABSCO (impeller driven) Pro's:
Self-priming
Only need one fill/drain line
No one way check valve needed
Reversible JABSCO Con's:
Impeller can need replacement
Use more amps than aerator pumps (9-11 amps)
Will burn up if run dry without water
Slower fill/drain times
Aerator pumps Pro's:
Faster fill times than Impeller pumps
Bullet-proof, can run-dry
Less cost
Use less amps (3-4 amps)
Aerator pump Con's:
Will not self prime (must be mounted below water line to create prime)
Need two pumps to fill/drain
Need more lines to fill/drain
Fill rates:
Tsunami 1200 - 20 GPM (gallons per minute)
Rule 1100 - 18 GPM
Tsunami 800 - 13 GPM
JABSCO - 640 GPH - 10 GPM
JOHNSON Ultra - 720 - 12 GPM
These fill rates are approximate, times will vary depending on line lengths, elevation loss, etc.
My Malibu VLX I ordered uses Phiranha 800 aerator pumps to fill and drain the hard tanks. For me, I was very pleased Malibu did this because IMO longevity of these pumps will last longer than impeller pumps. Plus, replacing them is much cheaper.
However, Supra/Moomba/Mastercraft use the JABSCO pumps to fill and drain. Both will work fine, it just depends what you are looking for. I have heard the new "green" impellers for the JABSCO pumps are much better and will last longer.
Hopefully this information will get you going in the right direction.
docdrs
03-19-2011, 11:36 PM
Fman......... I'm curious to know ....did they use 1 inch fittings and lines and when ya get your new ride how fast those pumps fill......bet your getting itchy to get it on the water, great ya still visit us here
here are some times
T800.......3/4 scoop and line.....11.98 min....for 750 lbs
T1200.......1" scoop and line......~5 min........750
2000 gph..3/4 scoop and line......5.09 min........750
3800 gph...1" scoop and line......2.99 min.......750
jabsco.......1" scoop and line......8.06 min.......750..........yellow impeller
chrisk
03-20-2011, 04:52 PM
Are the quick disconnects really necessary for the bags I will be leaving in place? Or can I just not pay for those, buy these, screw them into the bags and connect the hose?
http://www.wakemakers.com/1-2-to-3-4-inch-barb-adapter.html
Anybody have an opinion on this? ^^^
chrisk
03-20-2011, 04:55 PM
I meant to provide the link to the item with 1" thread and 3/4" barb
Ptownkid
03-21-2011, 01:18 AM
So coming back to my point...6 t1200's on 1 inch line will be substantially faster and more than likely cheaper than three reversibles...or am i missing something?
jasonwm
03-21-2011, 02:41 PM
Whoa, I guess this is what happens when I don't get a chance to check replies all weekend! :D
Also Jason, the reason I have two separate systems set up for both bow bags is because I want to be able to remove one and keep the other. I don't do a lot of surfing, but when I do I would like to be able to remove that front right bag, set it beside the engine on the port side and fill it up. I was planning on having a valve that I can manually turn off and on on that front right bag so that I can fill just the left and not the right. Then, I was going to have a T-Joint before the stern sac with another manual valve after it so I can close the valve and connect the second hose of the T-Joint to the bag lying on the floor and fill it up. (I would just have that second hose lying beside or on top of the stern sac when not in use).
Does this make sense? Do you think that system will work? I'm just trying to avoid buying a fourth sac and a $100 Tsunami pump to manually fill a sac for surfing.
OK, this is good information to have, because it definitely impacts the layout of your system.
There are a couple of reasons why I would recommend against setting up a system like that:
- With your bow bag in the bag you won't have a way to drain it. You could fill it off of the pump for the rear bag, but without a dedicated pump back there, and with aerator pumps, the water will be stuck in the bag.
- A much more functional system would be to use a bag on each side of the engine compartment and a bag up in the bow. For wakeboarding fill them all up so you have even weight from side-to-side and front-to-back. For surfing fill just the bag on the surf side in the back and the forward bag. That's a much better system, and how we recommend setting things up on direct drive boats.
All of that said, if I leave everything the way it is right now, are the check valves even necessary on the drain lines?
The way you have things drawn now, yes they are necessary to prevent drain water from flowing back down into the vent connection. Like I said, you could combine the drain connections together with each other and the vent connections together with each other instead of combining the vent and drain from each bag, and that would allow you to eliminate the check valve.
I didn't read everything , just looked at the diagram and see no reason to have the check valves on the drain lines at all.If anything you want them on your vent lines and even then , with the y connector they probably are not doing much as you are going to eventually drain the bag anyways.
Thanks for catching that! Check valves definitely need to be on the vent line. Some people will use them on both lines to help ensure as much water is removed from the bag as possible when using an aerator pump, but that's definitely not necessary.
You may want to route your rear vent line forward to prevent siphoning during a surf session or you could just put a cork in the thru hull on the surf sides to prevent this.
I'm assuming the diagram isn't drawn to scale, so I haven't addressed things like this, but you're absolutely correct, install thru-hulls as far forward as possible.
You also only need 1/2" vent lines, but then you need a 1/2 / 3/4 y which may be hard to find or you could just go all 1/2 vent discharge as time is not usually a matter when draining. Just an opinion .......:)
I would strongly caution anyone against using 1/2" lines (for any aspect of their ballast system). The vent and drain lines need to have at least the same flow rate as the fill line, otherwise they won't serve any purpose. Couple that with the fact that essentially no 1/2" hardware exists (bag connections, thru-hull connections, check valves, etc.) and it's just not worth any potential savings in terms of cost.
Most importantly, this can result in significant damage to the bag or the boat due to overfilling. AGAIN, please do not use 1/2" lines for your ballast system, we've had numerous customers that have caused extensive fiberglass and gelcoat damage by trying to do something like this.
can someone explain why people use $200 reversible pumps that have half the flow rate of a $50 pump?
http://www.moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=14074
here is an actual comparison that was done of various systems, I have the jabsco and verified my results on you tube as were some of the other mods......not promoting mine as it is my oem but will give you more info for your app. jesse has an awesome upgrade and what I would consider if mine was not comparable....I have an aux sub pum that I want install on my port side and see if it decreases fill times more but I have not had time to do this as I'm all ready getting the lowest fill times I have seen.
Careful using a sump pump in your boat, it's not ignition protected, which could have serious ramifications.
docdrs, I'm going with all 3/4 because I do a lot of slaloming as well and I would like to be able to drain quickly also. I believe 3/4 is the standard size to fit on the pumps and most fittings anyway.
Thanks for the advice on taking the check valves out of the equation on the drain lines, anyone else have an opinion on this?
Yep, definitely stick with 3/4" lines. docdrs is spot on regarding the check valves (see my response above).
Are the quick disconnects really necessary for the bags I will be leaving in place? Or can I just not pay for those, buy these, screw them into the bags and connect the hose?
There are two advantages to using the Flow-Rite system:
1. It allows the bags to be removed easily. You're talking about wanting to be able to move your bags around the boat, and if you end up going that route you'll almost certainly need a way to disconnect the lines easily.
2. Using just a standard threaded connector (like you mentioned) will result in the hose extending straight off the top of the bag, which can be a huge packaging problem if you're installing the bag somewhere with limited clearance. Even with our premium hose you'll have problems with the hose kinking in that scenario. With the quick connects you can have the hose extend parallel to the surface of the bag, which means you need a minimum amount of clearance.
Good point, not trying to steer him in the wrong direction. I did mention he should give you guys a call to discuss the system.
No problem, I knew that's what you meant, I just wanted to clarify for anyone else reading this thread in the future so they don't make a mistake setting up their system, and then end up cursing you and I for not knowing what we're talking about. :D
Jason,
What causes brass to corrode in a boat? I am not saying you are incorrect, just wanted to find out how this occurs? They sell "brass thru hull" fittings for boats. I had my manifold for two years in my Supra and never had any problems.
http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/eval-marine-accessories/boats-brass-thru-hull-fittings-23586-217151.html
Galvanic corrosion is responsible for deterioration in almost every case, and it occurs to all materials (although cathodic materials are much more stable). It typically only a major problem in salt or brackish water environments, but we've had customers that have had parts completely disintegrate in less than two seasons in fresh water. For more information checkout our blog post here: http://media.wakemakers.com/2010/01/why-using-the-right-tool-for-the-job-is-important/
The primary reason there's confusion here is because brass and bronze look virtually identical, so most people use the two interchangeably when describing materials. It's that misunderstanding that propagates the problem, and is evidenced by the fact that the site you linked to is selling a bronze thru-hull, but they're calling it brass.
Not sure what a 800 tsunami can do but I bet thru a 3/4" line its more like 30 percent slower.
Jabsco's are essentially identical to an 800GPH Tsunami pump in terms of real world speed.
Fman......... I'm curious to know ....did they use 1 inch fittings and lines and when ya get your new ride how fast those pumps fill......bet your getting itchy to get it on the water, great ya still visit us here.
Malibu uses 3/4" connections in their ballast systems. For an 800GPH pump there's no reason to use a larger diameter, as pump will be the limiting factor (unless you had 50' of hose between the pump and the tank/bag or something).
jasonwm
03-21-2011, 02:41 PM
Looks like my post was too long, so here's the rest of it:
So coming back to my point...6 t1200's on 1 inch line will be substantially faster and more than likely cheaper than three reversibles...or am i missing something?
Correct, aerator pumps will always be faster and cheaper than flexible vane impeller pumps, but those aren't always the two most important variables.
For example, on direct drive boats, where bags are out typically in the open, using aerator pumps means that you'll have a drain pump sitting in the middle of the boat that's prime for stubbed toes. You'll also have an extra connection to the bag, which means one more visible hose. So for that scenario, a lot of our customers will use flexible vane impeller pumps (like the Jabsco or Johnson) because the pump can be mounted remotely, and there are just two connections to make to the bag.
That's just one scenario where a flexible vane impeller pump may make more sense, even though it will be more expensive and slower than an available aerator pump.
Ultimately both pumps can be setup to work well, be reliable, and more than fast enough for most application, it just comes down to the individual situation, and making sure whoever is designing the system knows what they're doing.
chrisk
03-21-2011, 05:59 PM
Jason, thanks for taking the time to respond to all of this, it's been a big help.
I'm laughing at myself for forgetting about draining that bag after I move it. So, I think I'm going to just keep one of the current Launch Pad's I have and use that when I want to surf.
When you guys say drill the thru-hull drains as far forward as possible, I understand what you mean, however I'm nervous about my bow bags. The picture is actually pretty accurate to what I was planning, I want the drain holes to be just a few inches away from the bilge pump hole so that everything looks clean and uniform. However, now I'm worried that because the bags will be farther forward than their holes, the water will siphon out. Should I be worried and how can I stop this?
Also, the SOLE reason I'm doing this project is so that I don't have to step over my bags inside the boat. I was very happy with the bags I was running last season as far as wake goes, however I really REALLY don't want the clutter inside my boat.
ANDDDD my last current question... could you provide links for what you're recommending for the PVC "manifold" in the bottom of the hull? AND I'm worried about the bags filling when I don't want them to - I don't want to grind off my scupper and I don't want to have to get inside my engine compartment to flip a ball valve everytime I fill the system.
Thanks so much for the help!
jasonwm
03-22-2011, 12:31 AM
Jason, thanks for taking the time to respond to all of this, it's been a big help.
No problem, happy to help out.
I'm laughing at myself for forgetting about draining that bag after I move it. So, I think I'm going to just keep one of the current Launch Pad's I have and use that when I want to surf.
It happens, don't worry.
When you guys say drill the thru-hull drains as far forward as possible, I understand what you mean, however I'm nervous about my bow bags. The picture is actually pretty accurate to what I was planning, I want the drain holes to be just a few inches away from the bilge pump hole so that everything looks clean and uniform. However, now I'm worried that because the bags will be farther forward than their holes, the water will siphon out. Should I be worried and how can I stop this?
Putting the holes forward in the boat was only in relation to the rear bags, because that will elevate the drain fitting location relatively to the top of the bag. Based on the bag sizes you're using, and where they'll be installed I don't think you would have a problem with this anyway because it's really only a problem on v-drive boats where the rear bags come all the way up to the top of the locker.
Regardless, for your bow bags placing the thru-hulls further back on the boat (roughly under the windshield) will be just fine.
Also, the SOLE reason I'm doing this project is so that I don't have to step over my bags inside the boat. I was very happy with the bags I was running last season as far as wake goes, however I really REALLY don't want the clutter inside my boat.
Gotcha, and if you're been using that weight setup and know what to expect in terms of the wake then you're good.
ANDDDD my last current question... could you provide links for what you're recommending for the PVC "manifold" in the bottom of the hull?
Sorry, I forgot this early. With just two fill pumps you'll only need a Tee, and since you're using 800s, 3/4" is fine. So in that case you would just need to use our 3/4" Intake Nipple (http://www.wakemakers.com/3-4-nipple-fitting.html) to connect a 3/4" Intake Tee (http://www.wakemakers.com/3-4-brass-tee.html) to the ball valve. From there you can thread the 800s directly into the tee.
AND I'm worried about the bags filling when I don't want them to - I don't want to grind off my scupper and I don't want to have to get inside my engine compartment to flip a ball valve everytime I fill the system.
You don't already have a thru-hull that you've installed do you? As long as you don't just use a 3/4" Bronze Mushroom Thru-hull (http://www.wakemakers.com/bronze-thru-hull-intake-3-4.html), that along with the check valves will ensure you don't have any issues with the water level in the bags changing when you don't want it to.
The ball valve is only there for emergencies, you do not need to access it in regular use.
chrisk
03-22-2011, 10:53 PM
Thanks for the info! I just saw that hose went on sale so I purchased hose and pumps tonight. I'm going to keep buying the supplies incrementally as I get some dough. Gettin' pretty excited!
jasonwm
03-23-2011, 04:43 PM
For good reason, you'll have a great system when you're done with the install, and you'll love having it automated.
chrisk
06-10-2011, 11:30 AM
Jason, I finally finished this project. Everything works great except for one problem. My rear bag is filling when I don't want it to when underway. I understand why this happens and I was just wondering if anyone has any advice on what I can do other than installing the vented loop?
05supra24ssv
06-11-2011, 02:02 PM
Jason, I finally finished this project. Everything works great except for one problem. My rear bag is filling when I don't want it to when underway. I understand why this happens and I was just wondering if anyone has any advice on what I can do other than installing the vented loop?
if you route the fill hose high up above the bag it shouldnt fill on its own.
chrisk
06-11-2011, 09:53 PM
It is routed up high, comes up underneath the dash just about as high as you can go underneath the console.. still probably at least 2 feet higher than the bag sitting on the floor in the back.
jasonwm
06-14-2011, 12:00 AM
Installing a vented loop and removing the scupper from the intake fitting is the only sure fire way to eliminate a siphon from being established and filling the bag.
Why don't you want to install one?
chrisk
06-14-2011, 09:50 AM
Jason, I think mostly because I'm lazy, I was just hoping for an easy fix I could do in a day. I'll probably order one though
jasonwm
06-14-2011, 01:28 PM
Haha, gotcha! I suffer from that same syndrome as well, but sometimes the only solution is to do it correctly.
You can mess around with re-routing the fill hose, adding loops and coils and stuff, but for the amount of time it takes to cut the hose, slide the loop in and secure it with two clamps, that's a much more efficient solution in my opinion.
rtpaxton2
12-11-2011, 02:32 PM
The only other option if you choose to leave the scupper on the intake is to manually turn off your system with the ball valve when you are not using it. I did not want to have to lift the seat up/cooler every time I wanted to fill the system and then have to turn it back off after the bags were full.
Could you leave the scupper and put the sprinkler valves behind the pumps?
jasonwm
12-12-2011, 01:11 AM
I suppose one could do that. It it would pretty well defeat the point of doing such an upgrade. Besides failing frequently, those valves are also a huge source of restriction, accounting for a nearly 50% reduction in flow. They really only belong in a sprinkler system, so it's best to get them out of there.
cgorham
05-24-2012, 04:55 AM
I am planning on upgrading my 2001 supra, I called WM's and talked with Spencer and he recemmed that I install two new mushroom type thru-hull intakes into the boat. I was just wondering if anyone has done this and if they had pics of the install. Just like most everyone here I am terrified of drilling holes in my boat. I have already order the parts from WM's to complete the install just wondering if it is better to make the manifold type or drill thru-hull intakes in my boat. I attached what I am going to install if you have any advice or help please let me now. -Thanks
9906
Sluggo
05-24-2012, 05:18 PM
I was recommended the same thing for my 2005 22 SSV. I got to the point where Spencer was going to put all the parts required in my cart and now I haven't heard from him in a week or so. Hmmmmm..... Anyway, what pump is that and did you go 3/4" or 1" to the bag? The pump he was recommending was the Rule 1100 with a 1" outlet but only 3/4" inlet??? It also looks like you have a check valve after the pump, I don't think he was having me put that in there. One of the main reasons for doing this upgrade was to get rid of the sprinklers but he wanted me to keep the one for the center bag. I was thinking about switching out the thru hull to a mushroom or grinding down the scupper on the original to get rid of all the sprinklers but Spencer did not think it was worth it???
cgorham
05-24-2012, 08:43 PM
I was recommended the same thing for my 2005 22 SSV. I got to the point where Spencer was going to put all the parts required in my cart and now I haven't heard from him in a week or so. Hmmmmm..... Anyway, what pump is that and did you go 3/4" or 1" to the bag? The pump he was recommending was the Rule 1100 with a 1" outlet but only 3/4" inlet??? It also looks like you have a check valve after the pump, I don't think he was having me put that in there. One of the main reasons for doing this upgrade was to get rid of the sprinklers but he wanted me to keep the one for the center bag. I was thinking about switching out the thru hull to a mushroom or grinding down the scupper on the original to get rid of all the sprinklers but Spencer did not think it was worth it???
He recommended using the 800's 3/4" all around to stay as factory and low budget as possible. What I was told is that you can use the rule pump that is already there and hooking it up straight to the inlet of the center bag. Getting rid of the manifold and sprinkler valves setup all together. Spencer said to put the check valve after the pump although I kind of think it is not necessary or better to install on the drain line. I am going to leave my scupper intake as-is and install two new mushroom style intakes, those two will fill the rear 750 bags. I am just at the point where I need to know what is better setup. I don't really like the idea of drilling a new hole in my boat, but if I have to I will. It sucks not being able to use ballast on your wakeboard boat!
Sluggo
05-25-2012, 11:25 AM
From my limited understanding, if you leave the scupper in place, then while under way the scupper will force water into the system past the check valve and into the bag. Maybe not as fast as the pump would, but pump does not stop the water from moving either way and thus the need for a check valve or in the factory case, the sprinkler valve. With the mushroom, I think we are more concerned about the suction that is created under way and thus the check valve is installed. I would be interested in knowing how much time difference there is between 3/4" and 1" dedicated lines to the 750's and if it is worth the cost.
rtpaxton2
05-27-2012, 10:30 PM
My question is will the Rule pumps have enough suction to draw water from a mushroom through hull? I have problems in my factory setup with the pump "vapor locking" and I have to put some pressure into the scupper (through forward movement) to get the pump to prime. Without a scupper you won't have that ability.
As far as the question about 2 mushroom fittings or a manifold.... The factory manifold won't compete with 3 through hull fittings. If you go with a manifold you will need to increase the diameter of the pipe to compete with the 3 through hulls. My guess is that you would need a good 2 inch manifold (or more). Wake makers could definately answer this question.
cgorham
05-28-2012, 10:17 PM
sorry guys i have not been on since Thursday or Friday trying to get some lake time for memorial day. the setup i have pictured is what WM's recommended i was just wondering if anyone has done the thru-hull mushroom intakes and if there is anything that needs to be fix that would make it better.
I thought about going with the one inch lines but wanted to keep the cost down and use the factory lines. I would not think it would be much more expensive except the cost of new line I think 3/4"=.99 and 1"=1.49 per foot @ WM's
I also was worried about the suction of the tsunamis if it does not work i guess i am out 60 bucks. if they don't work i guess it will be upgrade to the expensive impeller pumps.
I don't know if the rule pump will allow water thru the scupper intake without movement i have always coasted to fill because of what you said with vapor locking.
Wakemaker told me they talk to tons of people a week who do the thru-hull install i just would like to talk or even better see one that has been done.
HIFLYR
08-07-2012, 07:32 PM
Jason,
What causes brass to corrode in a boat? I am not saying you are incorrect, just wanted to find out how this occurs? They sell "brass thru hull" fittings for boats. I had my manifold for two years in my Supra and never had any problems.
http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/eval-marine-accessories/boats-brass-thru-hull-fittings-23586-217151.html
Since I am also addicted to wood boats with a 66 Chris Craft Super Sport here is a link about brass fittings from the wood boat guru explaining what happens to the brass. Not sure if it applies to what you guys are doing but worth reading.
http://www.danenbergboatworks.com/fastener_metals.htm
spencerwm
04-09-2013, 02:36 PM
Guys and Gals,
This thread was started by by Fman in 2009. His system worked but not as well as he had anticipated.
We are getting quite a few customers asking about how and where to install the aerator pumps so I wanted to chime in. At the time of Travis's install we were fairly limited on what was available to complete the ballast upgrade. WakeMakers (http://www.wakemakers.com) does not suggest the upgrade explained in this post.
It is not a valid solution. Our main goal of is to solve the issues that plague the 2002 to 2008 factory Gravity III system. We have developed the Supra Gravity III Ballast System Upgrade (http://www.wakemakers.com/supra-moomba-ballast-system-upgrade.html) that utilizes as much of the factory plumbing that we could. Basically we convert the system to use reversible impeller pumps. Although we've worked as hard as possible to make this upgrade as easy to install as it can possibly be, there are some aspects of the installation that are unavoidable. Additional holes will need to be drilled in the boat. There's no way around it if we're going to fix the problems that are inherent with the factory system.
We've been selling ballast systems for a long time, and our customers are, understandably, always intimidated by this step of the process. We have some great video guides available that demystify this step of the process, so although it's intimidating, if you know how to use a drill, it's not difficult. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oprSN59A8)
Of course you can always have your local dealer or marine service shop drill the holes for you if you would prefer (and we're happy to ship your order directly to them for installation).
Outside of the drilling the holes, the rest of the installation is fairly straight forward, and consists of mounting the new pumps, running new hose to feed the system, and wiring the new pumps to your factory switches.
Thanks,
Spencer
fro169
04-26-2013, 07:27 PM
What happen to the pictures?
CornRickey
04-26-2013, 08:17 PM
Could you expand why it isn't valid? I'm not concerned about the added drilling but am about running the pumps dry and not knowing when the bags are empty. Not to mention the price of the impellor pumps. The aerator pump system with vented loops and check valves seem to be the best of both worlds. Thanks.
Decum
11-01-2013, 07:54 AM
Fman - this upgrade still working well for you?
toddg
11-01-2013, 05:41 PM
Fman sold the boat this was in a while back ...
jasonwm
11-04-2013, 01:16 PM
Fman - this upgrade still working well for you?
As mentioned, Travis did sell this boat a few years ago. Since then we've helping him do a couple of reversible pump based upgrades on the two Malibu's he has purchased.
An aerator pump based upgrade will work just fine though, so if that's the route you would prefer to go based on the pros and cons, go for it.
Kwyatt
07-24-2017, 06:44 PM
Fman, saw your post. Can you re post the pics? How is the system holding up?
Thanks
dsthomas05
08-06-2018, 04:44 PM
Really enjoyed this post. I've looking at different upgrades to the stock system of my 2007 20SSV to improve fill/drain time and add some more weight. So fare just upgraded the valves from the stock sprinkler valves to solenoid valve. With the stock pump it improved fill time by 25%. The next thing I was going to look at was the pump but to be honest I hadn't thought about using 3 Tsumami pump until reading this. Sounds like a good solution.
I have the same questions as Kwyatt though;
Fman, saw your post. Can you re post the pics? How is the system holding up?
Thanks
Does anyone have pic's of this setup they can share?
Thanks,
Dave
MJHKnox
08-07-2018, 09:31 PM
You might as well start a new thread. Fman has not been on this forum for years. His last activity was in 2015. This thread is from 2009.
Most upgrades on pumps are Supra/Moomba people moving to the reversible pumps purchased from Wakemakers.
https://www.wakemakers.com/wakemakers-complete-reversible-ballast-system.html
But you can still purchase the aerator style:
https://www.wakemakers.com/wakemakers-complete-aerator-ballast-system.html?531=43436&824=42498&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqqfo-6nc3AIV0LjACh1oiAfLEAQYASABEgKWpPD_BwE
Not sure I've seen too many pics of the 3 Tsumami-Style
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