Water In Cylinder

[CDAHDAH]

Hey Guys, I'm in a pretty bad situation and I'm hoping its not as bad as I think it is.

I've been out of town the past 4 months, and I'm a little late on winterizing my boat. I charged the batteries and couldn't get the engine to start. The carb was as dry as can be, and wouldn't deposit gas. The engine wouldn't turn over and would barely crank. The starter seemed fine, but just wouldn't turn the engine over. I did take all the spark plugs out and found water pouring out of cylinders #6 and #1. I left the plugs out and cranked the engine, and it turned over fine with all the plugs out. Water did SHOOT out from the cylinders and I kept cranking the engine until water stopped spraying out.

I cleaned the spark plugs, even though they looked like they were in bad rusty shape, and tried to start the engine. The engine turned fine, gas was coming out of the carb like normal but the engine wouldn't start, so I took some of the plugs out again and didn't find water back in there. Which is good.


Do you guys think that the engine water might have frozen and cracked or damaged anything internally for there to be water in my cylinder heads? Since the water has been sitting in the cylinder for God knows how long (probably about 2 months), does this mean that my cylinder heads and/walls need an overhaul/rebuild??

I'm gonna buy new spark plugs tonight and give it a try again tomorrow morning with the new plugs, I'm praying that its just plugs gone bad.:confused:

[michael hunter]

Sorry to here about your problem. If your engine had water in it and froze the engine is probubly junk along with the exhaust manifolds.

[docdrs]

is there any water in your oil? if its milky, thats not good......ever heard of michigan motorz? could be just a cracked intake mani....all depends how cold it got

[CDAHDAH]

I'll look into Michigan Motorz. I haven't found water to be in the oil, yet. Any ideas or tips on what to do to diagnose it without taking it all apart?

[jzelt]

Do you have spark at the plug? I test by putting a plug in the wire and have someone turn over the motor while holding the plug to the block and watching to see if there is any. This should rule out electrical vs compression.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Also it might not start well due to the cold temps. I was unable to get my boat started once the temps dropped. I just poured the antifreeze into the raw water intake until it ran out the exhaust outlets. It took 4.5 gal. Do that for sure even if you aren't able to start the boat. Where have the lowest temps been like there?

[86Pirata454]

doesnt sound good. is it a 454 or a 351? might want to do a compression test and if it starts a cylinder balance test

[dshaff24]

Sorry to hear this, Think of it like this! Water just don't get in your cylinder with out a cylinder wall of the block cracked from it being frozen! I hope this isn't the case but Water just don't get into the motor unless you have the motor cover off and ran gets down in the carb!

[CDAHDAH]

Great advice guys, so far no spark on the spark plugs, but I'm in the process of swapping them out with new ones (just incase the sitting water in the cylinder rusted out the tips of the plugs).

The coldest it got here was about 29-30, for about 12 hours or so. I'm not too convinced that this is because of the freeze, but who knows.

I did have issues "RESTARTING" the boat when it was warm this past boating season. It would start up just fine when the engine was cold, but not so great when it was warm. I'm thinking there was a previous leak in the cylinder/block before. I'm debating this because when we would run the boat on the lake and kill it to swim, I feel that water somehow found its way up to the cylinders and prevented an easy restart when the engine was warm.

Would the next step from now be to take the heads off? Has anyone ever taken the heads off it? It's actually a GM 350 engine in this Supra. I guess in 84 they had a special edition 350 instead of the 351 or 454 (so i'm told anyway).


MikeyD- Mikey, when I try to start the engine and it turns, water doesn't actually go thru the system without it starting. I can't get antifreeze in the block without it starting. Does it sound like I have an issue?

[docdrs]

It won't hurt to start the engine without water in it just don't let it run too long as you will toast the impeller. maybe its a leaking gasket head, intake or exhaust mani if your lucky. you can pressure test the block cooling system to see if it holds pressure, it will eliminate a few things. was the crank oil milky at all? i wouldn't think 30 degrees for 12 hours would crack anything

[87SunSportMikeyD]

CDA - I checked multiple places and even the owners manual for winterization process is done without ever starting the engine. I know many people start the engine and then use a hose from the raw water intake into the jug of antifreeze to suck it up. This is a faster method but not required.

I used a 5' or so piece of hose stuck into the RWI and then a funnel on the other end. Hold it up high and pour. The antifreeze slowly enters the engine. After about 4.5 gal, it poured a lot out of the exhausts.

While my engine would not START, it would crank over. When it did, it gulped a lot of antifreeze down. I did this a few times to speed the process but it drained the battery quick.

This is obviously not the ideal winterization and I still am not that happy about it, but I did a lot of checking and it should be fine. Make sure you drain the block of water first, critical if you get any temps near zero deg f.

[OUI]

30 degrees for 12 hours is not going to crack the block. The frost plugs would pop first. It sounds like you have a water jacket problem on your exhaust. When you turn off the motor some valves are going to be in the open mode, which would allow water to flow into the cylinders. That's why there was water in #1 and #6 and not the others. Pull your exhaust manifolds and do a pressure test. Also, check your risers

[OUI]

It's odd that you would have the same problem on both sides of the motor. My guess is the motor was overheated at some point, and the cold weather, and some ice only opened the problem and drained the water into the cylinders. Let me know what you find out.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

What are frost plugs?

[CDAHDAH]

Thanks MikeyD, I'll def get some antifreeze in it for the meantime (rest of the winter here in South Texas). I'll pull the drain plugs from the plug, get that water out, and feed the antifreeze. I'll also spray some fogging oil in the carb and cylinders.

OUI - I hope you're right, it would definitely be a lot of work and $$$ rebuilding the motor. As far as getting the exhaust manifolds pressure checked, how do I go about doing so? Is it as simple as removing the pair and taking them to a machine shop to pressure check (similar to heads)?? Could you be a little more detailed about the risers as well please?


FYI - If you guys ever need info on rebuilding an engine, I acquired (you know what that means) a DVD called "Boxwrench - Basic Engine Rebuilding". It's an amazing DVD that goes step by step on stripping and putting an engine back together. It even shows you what machine shops do when you take a block/heads to them...etc. I'd be more than willing to help you find it online.

[OUI]

Frost plugs are round bowl shaped plugs that are on the side of the block. They are pressure fitted and if the block freezes the pressure of the expanding ice pops them out, and hopefully saves the block from cracking.

Pull your manifolds and plug on end, then poor water into the other end and see if you have a leak in the #1 and # 6 exhaust holes.

On second thought, I don't think the riser have a water jacket so you may not have to worry about them. When you pull your exhaust manifolds check and see if they have a water jacket.

[michael hunter]

Freeze plugs on an engine are not there to prevent damage if the coolant freezes.
Their main function is to remove the casting sand when the block was made. Any time water freezes inside an engine it can cause major damage. This can happen at 30 degrees for 12 hours if its cold enough to freeze its cold enough to crack. It is possible the exhaust manifolds are the problem. The only thing you can do is tear it down and check everything. anything less you are rolling the dice?

[docdrs]

You need to check your oil for water, if its milky you have water in it and then
your prob dealing with a head gasket or a head problem, you would also have a loss of compression in those cylinders. do you run it in salt water? compression test is easy thing to do, checking oil is easy to do

[CDAHDAH]

Hey Guys, here's an update on what I've come up with for the motor...

1) I drained about 1.5 quarts of oil/water mixture from the oil pan until I started to get clean oil pumping out.
(I'm not sure if this water is from this recent event, or from a previous event this past summer we had a bad storm come through the Gulf with heavy consistent rains. It rained so bad that the boat cover gave out and water literally filled the boat about 4" above the floor, my dumbass had the bilge plugs in hoping to go back out on the lake before it rained. I opened the engine cover to find the WHOLE engine compartment flooded. I drained all the water out, and checked the oil pan. The oil pan was full of water, and I LITERALLY sucked out about a gallon of water from the oil pan before getting to the oil. It ran fine once I changed the oil, I just don't know if I got all the water out.)

2) The spark plugs are still sparking, but I still couldn't get it to start with even spraying starter fluid straight into the cylinders)

3) I pulled the plugs from the exhaust manifolds and the solution that came out was a blueish/blackish water with solids that looked like black silt. Not sure what that is, fried gaskets or just old water???

4) I drained the engine block plugs, and pure clean water came out. Sounds like a good thing.

5) I did check a cylinder compression test with a gauge, but I was told to do it with all the spark plugs in and take one out at a time to check that individual cylinder. I think the proper way to do it is to take ALL the spark plugs out, so this reading is not accurate. I'll have to do it again tomorrow. This is the data so far...

#2 - 120 psi
#4 - 65 psi
#6 - 60 psi
#8 - 60 psi
#1 - 80 psi
#3 - 55 psi
#5 - 80 psi
#7 - 70 psi

(the results are VERY low and very inconsistent, so not sure if the test was accurate. However, the test was consistent, so not sure if that would validate anything)

The thing to remember is I'm not sure if this was a previous event of overheating the engine; my impeller gave out when I was out on the water and the engine overheated pretty badly. So not sure if this is from that or a recent "freeze". I'm praying it's just the heads or head gaskets.

This boat was mainly taken out on salt water this past season.


I looked at the engine from what I could see, and NO cracks were visible, not sure about the inside though.
HELP?? Not sure if its cracked head/gaskets, cracked exhaust manifolds, cracked engine block...etc?

[michael hunter]

How many hours are on the engine?

[CDAHDAH]

Not sure, I bought it 2 years ago with a busted odometer that read 390 hours, no telling how many hours it really has.

[michael hunter]

With that many cyls low you may have a timing chain problem.

[CDAHDAH]

Do you think it could be anything more serious than either a head gasket/head crack or exhaust manifold issue?

[86Pirata454]

was the battery strong when you did the test? Those are some wierd numbers. I would squirt about 2 pumps (with an oil can) of oil into each cylinder and do it again. if water or gas washed the rings down the compression will be very low. stupid question but does it have fuel? I have seen where a carb'd motor will need to be primed with gas though the top of the carb to get the engine to spin fast enough to get gas to the carb. Also spraying anything in the cylinders like carb cleaner or startingfluid will flood the engine immeditaly

[docdrs]

if your fuel is old then it may be too degraded to fire up. did you put stabil in it?

when you pump your throttle to prime the engine does fuel squirt into the carb? is your fuel pump working?

I would drain the oil and change the oil and filter. Then drain the block manifolds and remove the impeller. Remove and make sure all plugs were dry and good and replace. Then turn engine over and try and start which it shouldn't unless a miracle has happened. Then remove the plugs and inspect them. If they are dry then your not getting any fuel in to them, if they are wet I would smell to se if it is gas or water or you could take a lighter and see if it burns. If its water then you prob have some kind of gasket leak. If its gas it could be old and too degraded to start. If its gas then i would dry them replace them and then outside in a ventilated area I would have someone turn the ignition key on and pour fresh fuel down the carb and see if it will start............THATS WHAT I WOULD DO but thats me and not you or anyone else .....I have done it before when i have ran out of fuel and poured in old fuel into the tank, the engine wouldn't fire untill i poured fresh gas down the carb.

NOTE do this at your own risk , be very careful with gas.

But i think you have to see why the engine isn't starting
Salt water will corrode your engine, you should always flush it after use in salt water, if you have not been doing this, and for a while an old engine like this could be toast

[CDAHDAH]

Yeah the fuel pump is working and it is sending fuel as soon as you prime it. I did not put stabil for the first 3 -4 months the boat sat in the driveway, but i did add it later on.

The cylinders are getting gas into them, and even when I leave the spark plugs out and crank it, it does squirt fuel out of the plug holes. The plugs are getting a spark, but just not starting. The liquid that does shoot out of the spark plug holes from the cylinders is of a gasoline mixture, but it is very rustic brown from the residue that remained from draining it and not sure if that gunk that sat in there for a while is preventing it from starting.

86Pirata454 - when you mentioned the water/fuel might have washed the rings down and therefore not allowing a normal compression, do you mean the actual piston rings?


Do you guys know why the water drained from the exhaust manifolds (from the plug hole) came out a blueish/blackish color? Is that normal for exhaust manifolds?

[docdrs]

You need to check your compression again. If those values are right then you may not have enough compression to ignite the fuel mixture in the combustion chamber . Most likely a head gasket which is why you get water in the cylinders and loss of compression . The main question is has there been a casting or head metal breach, sounds like you may be ok here for right now but soon may happen. If you have been running in salt water and not flushing the engine you will have problems with corrosion of your motor. You have to flush the engine after every use.

here is what it can do http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyjgzPN4yg0


Just trying to help

[beast 496]

You mentioned overheating the engine. The original color of your motor is Silver, if it now has a tint of bronze you are in trouble. My advise it to remove the heads and have them surfaced, and valves rebuilt. If the bore of the block is out of round, the block will need to be bored. Basically You are looking at a reman engine soon. Allan