Transmission Failure

[csuggs]

I'm back in the repair column, this time with a broken transmission. We went out last night for a short session, the boat started fine and we went up the river about 300 yards to warm-up the motor. My oldest son jumped in with the wakeboard, and when I hit the throttle to pull him up, BAM! The trans broke and motor rev'd . . . then I had to get towed back to the ramp by a 1988 Mastercraft. At least we weren't too far from the dock and ramp.
The damper plate has been making noise for the past month, ever since we had a boat full of teenage boys, trying to pull up some inexperienced riders. I was hoping to put off any transmission repairs until after the season was over, but so much for that. I will try to disassemble the trans tomorrow so I can order parts on Monday. By the way, I told my son he needed to loose some weight! (He's actually very fit, but I couldn't resist the opportunity!)

Anybody know if this problem sounds damper plate related or am I going to get into more - like gears, etc?

[Supra-in-steamboat]

Ouch. Sorry to hear. What noise led you to thinking it was the damper plate? Did it offer any other symptoms other than a noise- ie. slip, vibration, grind? Hope all goes well with your disassembly.

[csuggs]

Here's my question for anyone that may know the answer: Will a faulty damper plate necessary cause an actual failure in the velvet drive, or could my problem simply be that the damper failed and is the broken link in the driveline? I know the damper plate was getting worn because I experienced the rattling noise from the bell housing at idle for about 6 weeks now.

[fastab]

The tranny should be a sealed unit but, the dampner plate will have to bolt up to the input for the tranny. Depending on what is wrong in there it could take out the input which would mean tranny would have to come apart

[csuggs]

Pulled the trans out today, along with the dampner plate and flywheel. The dampner plate is obviously damaged, but I think that it is transmitting power to the input shaft on the tranny so I'm guessing the failure is internal. Unless someone knows a fool proof method to be sure the trans is good, I will ship it out to someone this week. Any recommendations? I removed the flywheel becuase it has some worn teeth so I will take it to a machine shop for repair.

[Blackntan90]

I dont really know what to say... very sad indeed! Well it does appear that you have things well at hand! But I am a little surprised that you did not wrap the entire boat like you did the floor!! The interior detail looks awesome! Best of luck, and keep us updated!

[csuggs]

Got two opinions this morning from Jim at Viper and Chris at Hale Marine in Viriginia (Velvet Drive Service Center). Both say they think my problem is a simple damper plate failure so I ordered parts this morning.
Damper Plate from Hale Marine $61
Replacement shaft seal bellows from Lasdrop $120
XPC strut bearings from skidim $60

In addition I have a new prop shaft and coupling that I will install, as well as a newly refurbished 4-blade prop. Hopefully I'll be back in the water this weekend!

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Clint I was diagnosed with a failed damper plate too. Kudos for doing it yourself. My mechanic said mine was old and springs were worn so he is replacing it, but it was not broken and not the source of my problems. Have you had your boat compression tested? Very simple and cheap once you get the trans hooked back up. Best wishes.

[csuggs]

No compression test. Should I? Was your problem somehow connected to the motor?

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Well... the symptom was a knocking noise. Good mechanic took a ride on the boat and listened to the engine with a mechanics stethoscope. He said he thought it was transmission damper plate but he also heard some engine noise. Personally we think he was just incorrect.

I took the boat to a different mechanic who took it apart and said the damper plate was worn and springs loose, but not breaking or broken. So while I was messing around trying to figure out what the problem was, a compression test would have identified it right away, in my case anyways.

We are suspecting a thrown rod or failed main bearing. My problem is still technically unidentified because we decided to get a new engine rather than spend lots to have him tear it down and then have it rebuilt. We got a newly rebuilt 351w longblock from craigslist for $950. We get to keep our engine so we will have it rebuilt eventually and maybe resell it or something.

I also got the damper plate replaced because the mechanic recommended it, along with a whole new distributor and starter.

Naturally, my problem is likely not the same as yours. I have heard at least 3-4 people with SunSports in our age bracket describing similar symptoms, a knock only under load at higher rpms. Best wishes.

[Okie Boarder]

Sorry to hear it. Another person you might consider is Eric Lavine. You can look him up on correctcraftfan.com He's the trans guy everyone goes to on there.

Keep us posted.

[jet]

Man thats one area I have zero experience with. We need full pictures and step by step instructions, PLEEEEASE!! Jet

[ngavchris]

I had to rebuild mine when it was only 3 years old. Internal break down due to misalignment. Make sure you get the tranny and propshaft aligned up perfectly. Sorry to hear your having issues.

[riveredge]

From what you describe, it sounds like a damper plate failure. Do you have any better pics of the damper plate? It's not a very complicated thing, really, so you should be able to tell by looking at it whether it would at least engage the transmission at all. I've seen one break off the middle splined piece completely, that was a sudden and complete loss of forward and reverse, obviously, but the tranny was fine. If the plate was still engaged with the tranny and you still had a sudden and complete failure, that's trouble for the transmission, of course. From what you describe, the engine sounds unrelated.

[csuggs]

The dummy at Hale Marine sent me the wrong part. Even after I called him back a second toime to be sure it was the right part. AAAAGGGGHHHH!!

Just got off the phone with the guy at Hale Marine and he argued with me that I had the correct plate, but that it used only half the mounting bolts of the original and that the plate needed to be trimmed to fit. What an ass. I'm sending it back and I've got another coming from discount inboard marine. More money, but I'm sure it will fit.

[csuggs]

Got the new flex plate from skidim this morning, and guess what? It fits just like the original. Kudos to skidim!

[brack]

two thumbs up !!!!!!

[saltare inverts]

Every part I have ever ordered from skidim has been perfect.

[riveredge]

Fantastic! When my plate broke last summer, I was sure it was the tranny, until I pulled it out and part of the damper plate was stuck on the splined shaft... best thing I ever saw. Congrats on the repair, cheers!

[Fman]

Got the new flex plate from skidim this morning, and guess what? It fits just like the original. Kudos to skidim!

csuggs,

Is this a wear and tear problem? how many hours did you have on your transmission? is there something you did that made this happen? anything you could have done to avoid it from happening?

Congrats to fixing it yourself, could only imagine what a shop would have charged you!

[csuggs]

I plan to re-assemble the driveline today. The hold-up was that I was waiting on a new ring gear for the flywheel. I had the flywheel re-ringed at a local machine shop on Friday, was busy with soccer games yesterday, so I will assemble today. I will give a report after it is together and I have tested to be sure the trans is still ok. As always, I will try to include some pics.

Fman - the damper plate (or flex plate) is something that will eventually wear-out. My boat has about 600 hours on it and I believe the flex plate is original, but not certain. I think the more hole shots you take, the more weight you are towing, and the more you often that bump reverse to slow the boat when setting up a pull, the more wear you have on the plate. At least that's my theory.

Wish me luck!

[mapleleaf]

What a season for you so far Clint... Definitely a great example to all of us that no problem is too big to keep us off the water!!!!
Kudo's sir, can't wait to hear how the water test goes...

[csuggs]

Here are some pics of the damaged flex plate. I heard a pretty loud "pop" when I hit the hole-shot and it failed.

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02919.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02923.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02925.jpg

And the new flex plate.
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02927.jpg

[csuggs]

Tranny all cleaned-up, flushed and ready to go in . .
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02918.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02916.jpg

And flywheel re-ringed . .
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02928-1.jpg

[csuggs]

I'm gonna go ahead and replace the rear crankshaft seal since it's a single piece seal . .

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02932.jpg

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Thanks for the pics

[csuggs]

Progress. The oil seal just came in today so I got busy tonight. I removed the old crankshaft seal and installed the new one. Little bit of grease on the inner lip and a little RTV on the outer lip. Also, I added some RTV to the end of the oil pan seam where it contacts the block, and I tightened the two corner bolts of the oil pan - got about 3/4 turn on them.

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02942.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02950.jpg

[csuggs]

Then I installed the shield, flywheel and flex plate. I used Loktite on the flywheel and flex plate bolts. NOTE: Ford flywheels only go on one way! There are six bolts that attache the flywheel to crank, but they are asymetric, meaning that it only goes on one way. You cannot tell by looking, but the holes are not equally spaced - this has something to do with balancing. I thought I was going crazy when trying to bolt on the flywheel!

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02952.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02953.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02956.jpg

[Eric1687]

I just got done rebuilding my transmission, went through the same ordeal with the damper plate as you did, how much break in time did you put on the transmission ?

[csuggs]

I just got done rebuilding my transmission, went through the same ordeal with the damper plate as you did, how much break in time did you put on the transmission ?

I did not rebuild my transmission. I think I just have a damper plate failure. I will know as soon as I get it running.

[Blackntan90]

That is one clean bildge, captain! The way it shold be! And thank you, also for the pic's and info!

[csuggs]

Finished-up the assembly on Saturday, but then I had a wedding to attend in the afternoon, so the real test had to wait until Sunday.

I installed a new seal from Lasdrop. According to Jim, and the guy at Lasdrop, this seal was original on my boat. I replaced the rubber bellows and o-ring in the seal collar.

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02959.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02983.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02987.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02992.jpg

[csuggs]

After bolting the bell housing and transmission back to the motor, I filled the tranny with oil and tested it in the driveway. Engine started on the first crank after sitting idle for two weeks and the transmission worked just as it should. No driveline attached yet.
Before I installed the new prop shaft and coupling, I removed the original strut bearings and installed new ones from skidim that are supposed to be better than the original style.

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02977.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02958.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02979.jpg

[csuggs]

Then I installed the new shaft that Jim sent to me a while ago. It came with a new coupling that is held onto the shaft with a locknut and set screw to keep the locknut from backing out.

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02987.jpg
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02985.jpg

The 4-blade OJ 13x13 prop was recently refurbished by Proper Pitch.
http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02990.jpg

[csuggs]

All put back together.

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/csuggs/DSC02995.jpg

I was able to test the trans today in the water! Two of my sons and I were on the river at 7am, then out at 9:15 so we could be at church by 9:45. Then, after church and lunch, back on the river until about 5pm. Everything seems to be in good order. The motor and trans are strong. I do have a bit of a vibration in the driveline that I would like to improve upon. I may need to go back and re-align the motor and shaft.

[mapleleaf]

very cool stuff, glad you're back on the water.....New dripless seal looks pretty sweet too.....

[sybrmike]

Always nice to view your posts - great work. Glad the flexplate repair worked out. Driveline stuff looks sweet. Thanks for the gatuitous glimpses of that sharp lookin interior. Clean, clean, clean bilge. Congrats on all the nice work.

FWIW - I think replacing that pvc raw water intake elbow and valve with bronze would make a nice winter project. I know I'd sleep better knowing all your hard work wouldn't be as likely to find it's way to the lake bottom due to some cracked plastic.

Again, as always - nice job!

[csuggs]

Always nice to view your posts - great work. Glad the flexplate repair worked out. Driveline stuff looks sweet. Thanks for the gatuitous glimpses of that sharp lookin interior. Clean, clean, clean bilge. Congrats on all the nice work.

FWIW - I think replacing that pvc raw water intake elbow and valve with bronze would make a nice winter project. I know I'd sleep better knowing all your hard work wouldn't be as likely to find it's way to the lake bottom due to some cracked plastic.

Again, as always - nice job!

Point well taken on the plastic - I think I'll do that. I'm a little unhappy with the shaft alignment because the front trunion motor mounts are being stubborn when trying to adjust. I think I might take them apart and clean them up. Maybe I'll install new bushings at the same time. Thanks again for the tip - that's a good call.

[wotan2525]

Looking really good... I've never seen that shaft seal, before. I have the PSS shaft seal and it has a cooling line that runs to it. Yours looks like it's almost the same besides that.

Aren't the new couplers really clever and easy to install? Looks great.

No prop guard on the trailer??

[Okie Boarder]

Looks good and glad to hear that is was basically just th plate and no full rebuild was needed. I'm worried about slight noises I'm hearing. I would definitely keep playing with alignment to get it the best you can. The front trunions can be quite a pain. Keep trying to "persuade" them into moving and if it doesn't work you can take them off. PB blaster, a crow bar and some effort might work.

[csuggs]

Looks good and glad to hear that is was basically just th plate and no full rebuild was needed. I'm worried about slight noises I'm hearing. I would definitely keep playing with alignment to get it the best you can. The front trunions can be quite a pain. Keep trying to "persuade" them into moving and if it doesn't work you can take them off. PB blaster, a crow bar and some effort might work.

Okie I think my next step is to remove the front mounts and clean them up. Maybe put new bushings in them while they're apart. I was going to replace them, but the bushing is only $14.76 vs a trunion assembly for $79.00 from skidim. I can support the front of the motor from a hoist in the garage while I remove the mounts to clean them up. I just thought it might be worth replacing the isolator bushings while I have them apart.

[Okie Boarder]

Seems like it would be a good idea to go ahead and replace the bushings while you're at it. I would agree with doing just the bushing, though, considering the price.

[csuggs]

I have not had much time to work on the boat recently, but now I'm close to going back in the water. I did finally get the front motor mount trunions to move with the help of PB Blaster and a 4-foot bar. So the engine/shaft alignment is good - I feel. Also, I removed the control valve and regulator valve from the transmisison and cleaned them. I don't see any problem there so I ordered new o-rings and gasket and put the assembly back together. It could be that I merely had air in the hydraulic lines that was causing the chattering and vibrating, like a buzzing noise. I will know probably Friday when we lake test the boat again.