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NeilMcg
08-16-2010, 11:55 PM
After seeing the successful outcomes of so many here, I've decided to take the plunge as a DIYer.

OVERVIEW:
* 1987 Supra Sun Sport. PCM 351w w/656hrs. Engine runs great. Will do a carb rebuild and other simple things, but mostly I'll leave it alone.
* Boat ran aground and the prop and rudder shaft are in bad shape. The hull was barely damaged so all things considered, I'm quite thankful.
* Rot is evident in some areas, but I'm taking the "Where there's smoke..." philosophy, so I'll be pulling the deck and redoing the floor and, most likely, the stringers.
* All new uphostery and carpet.

Here are some prliminary pics:

Faded wave, and although the vinyl stripes look ok here, they're all nicked up everywhere else
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/DCP_0077.jpg

Bent rudder shaft. Hopefully can fix and balance.
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/DCP_0079-1.jpg

Prop severely damaged
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/DCP_0078-1.jpg

Rear seat frame rot
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/DCP_0087-1.jpg

Many more pics to come, as this will be long Fall/Winter project. I'd appreciate any help you're willing to provide.
Thanks,
Neil

ngavchris
08-17-2010, 04:16 AM
Ouch!!!!!!! That looks like a stump grinder. That must have been one heck of a bad hit. Good luck with your restoration. I appreciate the simple things in life.

Okie Boarder
08-17-2010, 11:54 AM
Keep posting pictures and information, as well as questions. I'm sure there will be a lot of advise flying around to help you progress. When are you getting started?

87SunSportMikeyD
08-17-2010, 01:53 PM
If someone is only slalom skiing or barefooting I see no reason whatsoever to try and turn it into a wake boat. I totally like your ideas if new guages and underwater lights. If you have the money you might really like perfect pass...

Be sure to make sure your motor mounts are tight (but dont turn them) and you may want to drill a test hole to check the color of the wood inside the stringers.

NeilMcg
08-17-2010, 02:08 PM
I plan to start this coming weekend.

First thing is to remove all upholstery and then drain and remove the tank. (Actually, I'm not sure when is the easiest time to take out the tank...any suggestions?) I'm using a chain fall connected to a beam to hoist the engine and deck. The engine will go on a caster wheel dolly to get it out of the way and then on to an actual engine stand when I'm ready for work. The deck is next and It'll be supported with 4x4's with a carpeted V-groove. I have hydraulic bottle jacks to raise it up when I'm ready for paint.

Secondly, the carpet will be pulled up gently using a scraper to act as a template for the new stuff. From then, out comes the floor and stringer inspection. I plan on keeping the hull on the trailer, except when it comes time to flip it. Working on construction of a rotisseri.

ALL lag bolts came out of the driver's seat. Learned just how extensive the problem was at that point
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/DCP_0093-1-1.jpg

Reverse side of the Morse throttle as a reference during re-assembly. If anyone has knowledge of the inner mechanics of this system, or even just a manual, please let me know.
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/DCP_0103-1.jpg

NeilMcg
08-17-2010, 02:15 PM
Mikey,
I may have spoken too soon, as I might consider a perfect pass. We were skiing early Sun AM in my Brother's Launch, and his speedo was so fogged in, I could barely see. I didn't even think to look at the Pp readout...Good point.

87SunSportMikeyD
08-17-2010, 04:03 PM
Neil - I need a new throttle cable too, so I would be really interesting in anything you can find out.

Once you remove the rear bench seat frame (which is just screwed to the floor), you should be able to pull the gas tank. It's even easier if you have the pull out rear-ski-locker.

Around the driver's seat post is one of the most common areas for the floor to have a soft spot. Crossing my fingers for ya there!

When you get new speedo guages, they will be sealed airtight which should prevent them from fogging up. The PP paddlewheel guage is more accurate and replaces one speedo guage on the dash. I wrote up a thread on how to DIY a PP if you choose. WHere are you located?

NeilMcg
08-17-2010, 05:04 PM
Rear bench is out, I thought the ski locker was attached to the deck, but I'll check it out.

Regarding the throttle, I'm doing an exhaustive search for everything I can about that system, including a user's manual. I'm not sure, but I think it was made before Teleflex bought them. I'll take tons of pics and pass along any info I can find. By the way, how can I check the engine mount itegrity without actually turning the screws? I assmune they're lag bolts. And if I drill holes in the stringers, what color am I looking for..woody white as apposed to rotted brown?

This stuff is just nasty!
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/DCP_0091.jpg


I live in Conneaut Lake, PA which is a 45 minute drive due south of Erie.

Okie Boarder
08-17-2010, 05:18 PM
Look for the wood to be a nice brown color, not black and it should be dry. Also see how "stringy" it is. It could be dry, but crumbly. That indicates it is not wet but has still rotted. I bet you're going to find much worse wood and foam the deeper you dig in. Where is that wood from?

Make sure you take lots of pictures and measurements. That helps a bunch for later.

87SunSportMikeyD
08-17-2010, 06:23 PM
Put the wrench on the bolt and apply some pressure to see if they are snug. If they are stripped or spin easily, that's a bad sign. If they are snug, don't try to apply so much pressure that you turn them.

NeilMcg
08-17-2010, 08:00 PM
Mike,
Ok will do on your suggestion.


Okie,
All that rotted wood is from the rear seat area, and there is clearly visible bad wood under the fuel tank.

This leads to my first 2 big question regarding stringers and Floors:

1. What is the true dope on Polyester vs. Epoxy Resin?

2. Since I'll coat the wood thoroughly, then glass, then re-apply, is there any real-world difference in what wood I use?

rludtke
08-17-2010, 11:43 PM
Polyester resins are most likely the resin used in the original boat build. When bonding new polyester to old, the bond is primarily a mechanical bond, not quite as strong a joint as the original chemically bonded original laminants.

Epoxy creates a chemical bond even when bonding new to old (or secondary bond), and will be equally as strong as original laminants (primary bond). Epoxy will secondary bond well to polyester, but the opposite isn't usually true.

Epoxy is much more viscous (resists pouring) than polyester.

As for wood choice: A single layer of glass laminated to the wood with resin will not add much, if any strenght. It will help the wood resist moisture, and make it more durable. Therefore, the strength of the stringer or floor or whatever you are building will come from the wood selected. Hardwood, or several layers of marine plywood are the typical choices for stringers and other structural members. Obviously marine ply is the best chioce for the floors. If the wood components are to be laminated, one could argue that Marine grade might be overkill. Exterior grade plus the fiberglass will probably give more than enough years of service.

No doubt you have noticed the soft wood (the back seat for instance) the manufacturer selected to save money, and it lasted a long time.

Okie Boarder
08-18-2010, 12:50 PM
Rick nailed it. I would add that many of the boat building forums will provide a lot of information. Quite a few of those guys use Douglas Fir. If you can get that in your area, that would be a good choice.

The one thing to remember is that you have the chance to use a little better materials and methods than the factory did over 20 years ago, so you should expect it will last a little longer. Completely covering and coating wood, using products like CPES, using epoxy all add longevity to the build. But, you need to ensure you are sticking within the constraints of your budget.

NeilMcg
08-18-2010, 10:39 PM
Rick,
Thanks for the help,
I've gone dizzy on the poly vs. epoxy debate, but have decided to go with epoxy to save my sanity, if not my wallet.

Some more questions if you don't mind:
1. Once everything is torn out of the hull, should I sand and apply a coat of resin before doing anything, or just clean thoroughly?

2. How much resin should I expect to use (Stringers,floor and, if recommended, the hull?)

3. Is there a difference in epoxy quality (West systems, TAP, or the dreaded Home Depot?)
Thanks

rludtke
08-18-2010, 11:17 PM
I have not done a stringer repair/replace job, but I have built and repaired numerous composite kit airplanes.

The preperatory steps for a secondary bond using either epoxy or polyester is to mechanicaly clean (abrade with course paper), and then chemically clean (scrub/wipe with acetone), immediatly prior to laminating. Its generally good to brush a light coat of resin over area before placing the fabric.

Some times I pre-wet the fabric laminations over a plastic sheet on a flat table, and then walk the stack-up over to the project and flop them all into position, and remove the plastic. This can be a real time saver, especially if the shape is complicated.

I don't know about the quantities needed, but others have posted here about their stringer jobs and should know. I am not really sure if resin brands make a big difference. I would expect the cheapest resin you could find would still give you good service life. You are going to buy this stuff by the gallons, so the price will add up. I am not familiar with Home Depot resin, but if it is the cheapest, I would consider using it. My guess however, is that a composite distributer will have better retail prices.

Okie Boarder
08-19-2010, 12:01 PM
1. Plan to do lots of grinding. You want to get down past the layers of glass and resin they used to attach to the hull and be to the layer that is the atual hull. As Rick stated, wiping with acetone prior to laminating is a good idea. You'll be bonding the stringers to the hull first with thickened resin (most likely) prior to lamination over the tops or tabbing along the bottoms.

2. I would plan for somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 gallons. You might use more or less depending on methods, total laminations and amount of bedding material you have to use.

3. I've read a lot about this. Some guys swear by certain brands, but most don't see the value in some of the expensive ones, like West. Check out US Composites (www.uscomposites.com). They have good products and pretty much the best prices your going to find. Nearly half the price of West.

I agree with Rick's suggestion of laying layers out on a table first. Whether you are going to mostly tab, then wrap or just wrap, wetting out the layers of fabric you are using is much easier on a horizontal surface. It will be a lot like handling a wet noodle to put them on and it takes some getting used to.

sybrmike
08-20-2010, 10:48 AM
I second the others...

Mechanincally abrade (grind/sand) the surface you're bonding to. It doesn't have to be perfectly flat and smooth, but bumps and ridges will pevent the cloth from laying down without air bubbles. Vacuum up the dust, then wipe with acetone prior to wetting out with resin. It's a trial and error feel type thing as to how much resin to put down and prewet the cloth with. Use the least amount of resin possible to fully wet the cloth. Too much resin actually weakens the layup and the waste can add $ up quickly. Squeegies are a great way to force out the extra resin. You can push it up into needed areas until it starts to "kick" and no longer wets out the cloth. Wipe and remove as much excess resin as you can on each layup before it sets - a lot easier than grinding it out after it's cured.

Around 20 gal of resin sounds about right - but you're mileage may vary. I used a bit more, but on a bigger Saltare.

US Composites makes good stuff & prices are about as good as it gets - used them for years.

NeilMcg
11-05-2010, 06:07 PM
It's been a few months since I started this project and I finally have time to start up again. I just got back dropping off all the uphostery and he said that he'll need 33 sq. yards of material! That sounded like quite a lot. Any thoughts?

mapleleaf
11-07-2010, 09:53 PM
He's prolly not too far off, sorry to say it!, I remember being somewhere between 20 an 30 on my Conbrio. Be happy someone's doing it for you, it's not an easy job!!!

NeilMcg
11-08-2010, 10:44 AM
Thanks Maple. I'm relieved to know that even though its a bit of a suprise, I now know I'm not getting taken. Thanks for the reply. Looking at @ $2,200-2,500 as an estimate, which includes some woodwork for the rotten areas of the bowrider section and rear bench.

87SunSportMikeyD
11-08-2010, 12:18 PM
Neil - Please promise me you'll never delete this thread!!! :) :) :)

mapleleaf
11-08-2010, 09:28 PM
I'd say if the interior turns out good, you're in the right ballpark. I've wanted to ask about stringer material for a while and since this is a rebuild thread.......
I totally agree with Okie and the Doug fir, but I visited a couple boat builder's this past summer ( primarily sail boats) who swore by White Oak. Apparently, its very resistant to rot, and super strong. Given lumber prices up here the difference wouldn't be much more for the Oak. Just wondering if there are any opinion's on this??
I'll be diving into some stringer and bilge repair after New Year's, that may very well turn into an entire rebuild.....

Salty87
11-08-2010, 10:21 PM
go for it leaf!...i've said it before but a dry boat is a wonderful thing.

don't forget to discuss the pro's and con's of lumber vs plywood (sounds like an exam lol).

put me in the marine plywood group. the main reason being that i wanted to use plywood and wanted the laminates glued with waterproof glue (there's probably a more technical term than waterproof). i've had a section of 1/2" marine ply laying around my backyard, outside, since my rebuild around 2 years ago. it hasn't delaminated. i wanted plywood for structural strength reasons...alternating directions of grain.

i'm also in the ploy resin camp. in hindsight, i'm not quite as sure why. i wasn't skimping on materials but decided the floor didn't need to be made out of stronger resin than the hull. rlutdke would make a great resin salesman...where do i sign? lol

i think more important than the materials you chose is the design changes you can make. there was no drainage of 'sealed' compartments before. and, foam was poured in without regard for the long term effects....trapped water. you can't defeat water over the long-term, you have to plan to deal with it effectively.

mapleleaf
11-08-2010, 11:02 PM
Yeah, Salty, here I go on a thread jack ( sorry Neil!), have studied your drainage upgrades and won't go w/out them. Hit a rock this fall and jacked everything up, strut backing plate and poss. rudder backing..... Needless to say the rear end of my stringers are on their way, so it's becoming self explanatory.......I'd feel a whole lot better if I was rebuilding a slightly bigger boat!!!! At least I get to put my new interior back in!!!!!!

NeilMcg
11-08-2010, 11:35 PM
Thanks Mike for your confidence!

As for the stringers, I'm seriously considering using Seacast. I figure that will save an lot of time by not having to do all the shaping and sanding to get it just right. If I don't go that route, I will use dimensional lumber and I've also heard about the good properties of White Oak. Truth is that my boat never really takes that much of a pounding and I have a hard time believing that solid wood wouldn't be prefectly adequate to perform just fine. FYI, I'm going to the Miami boat show, because nearly every manufacturer will be there. If anyone else is planning on it, let me know.
More Pics to come!

Okie Boarder
11-11-2010, 12:38 PM
I've seen a lot of discussion of several forums about what to use to do the rebuilds. White Oak is a decent choice if Doug Fir isn't available, from what I've read. I think it's only disadvantage is the weight. I've seen several discussions about plywood and also LVL. I'd say it kind of boils down to what you can get in your area and opinion on what you think would be your own best solution. My opinion is no matter which way you go, most of the rebuilds are done a little better than the original anyway and most of those have already lasted 20+ years, so you really can't go too wrong.

Salty87
11-11-2010, 01:05 PM
i researched seacast too. it's ridiculously expensive. you also have to get all of the wood out of your old stringers while leaving the fiberglass skins in tact. unless your stringers have completely disintegrated you'll come across areas of good wood that won't come out easily.

in the end i don't think it will be easier, won't be cheaper, and if not done right the results could be bad.

sybrmike
11-11-2010, 01:16 PM
Regarding the Seacast - I considered something similar, but the stringers (esp outer ones) are pretty skinny & not much room to get all the old wood out. Plus mine only had cross braces laid flat across the top of the stringers & no easy way to duplicate that with Seacast and I really wanted true bulkead type cross supports.

I used laminated sections of exterior grade plywood. Easy to work with & not too expensive to redo if you fudge something up (I did). The stringers in my Saltare curved inward at the bow & laminated plywood made duplicating the curve easier, pluse easy to scarf pieces together to run the full length.

Agree with Okie, lots of evidence when I tore mine apart that there's plenty of room in the original for improvement. Any halfway decent attempt to do it right (even by an amature like me) with modern materials is gonna last at least as long as the original.

NeilMcg
11-14-2010, 12:25 PM
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing...how to hollow all that stuff out. The biggest concern is getting the dimensions of the stringers just right, especially the height so I can keep the floor height the original and, more importantly, level...that seems like it would be a nightmare (I'm the furthest thing from a carpender you can get). Anyway, the floor is coming out in a few weeks and I'll be posting pics once I start that. Considering the cost of good marine wood plus the cloth and resin, Seacast at $210/5gal, may actually be comparable; I have to further check on that. I'm also taking the measurements from the floor and having a mill custom cut them so I don't have to deal with that either.

NeilMcg
11-15-2010, 01:12 AM
Mike,
As you saw on my rudder problem, do you think It's possible to have the vertical shaft straightend out..or should I just go with a whole new system?

sybrmike
11-15-2010, 09:46 AM
Which Mike?

Yes, they can be repaired. Some buds & I had an old Nauti that we bent the rudder shaft (stump) & had straightened & then the next season (same stump) sheared the rudder off at the hull & had that one brazed back together. Both held up fine.

This time, I had to cut my rudder shaft to get the tiller arm off (well, after the fact didn't really have to - but oops too late). I did pick up a whole new rudder assembly so I could update a 20 year old seal and rudder design.

NeilMcg
11-20-2010, 07:22 PM
Mike, sorry I didn't specify, but thanks for your input.

Today I set up shop. It's a non-heated warehouse with vitually no lighting. So I got a 170,000 btu torpedo heater and halogens on tri-pods.

Deck and engine are coming out January 15th. I'm using an engine hoist and hope to avoid the dilemma that Mani went through. If anyone has additional thoughts of how to avoid that I'd appreciate your input.

Took off the rub rail. What is that clear rubbery substance at the joint?
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/DCP_0143-1.jpg

Wondering if there are any things to be consider before just unscrewing nuts when it comes time to seperate the shaft from the tranny.

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/DCP_0144-2-1.jpg

I lost of of these "struts", if that's the right word on the other side. Does anyone know what they're called?

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/DCP_0141-1.jpg

Just a basic view
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/DCP_0138-1.jpg

Last question....How in the world do you take off the windshield??? I'm having it powdercoated and tinting the windows, but I couldn't figure it out.

cadunkle
11-20-2010, 07:40 PM
Mike, what rudder assembly did you put in your Saltare and what was involved in the job? My rudder is a bit loose in the bushing/bearing and I figure I might replace the whole thing for next season and get the benefit of a dropless seal. Also going to convert my shaft packing to dripless. A dry bilge will be nice.

NeilMcg
11-20-2010, 07:48 PM
Forgive me for chiming in, but I emailed Vince at Skidim awhile ago and he said that they have a complete compatible part #2430. Might want to check it out.

mapleleaf
11-21-2010, 12:22 AM
I was in the position with my rudder 'til it lost to a rock......Mine was the older style with a flax packing collar at the top. If your's is the same I think it would be possible to have the shaft machined back straight to allow it to be freed up inside the hub...Just a thought before dumping $400 and a bunch of labor at replacing it.......
When I removed my old rudder shaft from the hub, the wear marks were so obvious that my stiff steering finally made sense. Apparently these rudders bent quite easily under the stress of the power turns our boats are capable of.

NeilMcg
11-22-2010, 12:44 AM
Thanks for all of your advice on the rudder..Takin' diligent notes!!:) If anyone has knowledge on the current problems I'm dealing with, I'd really appreciate it.:confused:

wotan2525
11-22-2010, 12:27 PM
Neil -- The clear substance is just regular 100% silicone caulk. This "seals" up the top and bottom halfs.

The adjustment arms on the anti-cavitation plate are stainless turnbuckles. http://www.hayn.com/marine/rigging/tt.html seems to have them, although maybe a forum member has a source for cheaper ones?

As far as removing the transmission coupler -- just unscrew the four bolts on the outside. This should get it away from the engine and then remove the set screw (if you decide to remove the coupler completely from the shaft.)

Good luck on the engine hoist. I tried 3-4 of them before giving up. Even a heavy-duty semi hoist didn't have the reach and height required to get the engine up and over the gunnels. I've had my engine out 5-6 times (don't ask.) It's been a combination of the joices in my garage (and letting the air out of the tires,) a friends car lift (again... air out of tires,) a HEAVY tree branch, and a gantry i-beam lift (this, by far, worked the best.)

sybrmike
11-22-2010, 12:30 PM
Cadunkle - I picked up a "new surplus" assembly from Great Lakes Skipper. Some of thier stuff is a bargin, some not so much. Originally for now defunct Gekko, but the measurements were perfect. Haven't installed yet, but came complete with new rudder, top sleeve with lip seals and zircs, s/s tiller arm, and bottom plate for $150. Skidim & Viper also carry them (pretty universal) for a little more.

Neil - rubbery stuff at the hull joint is most likely silicone. Can be removed with a razor blade and power eraser. Typically you'll run a new bead between the lower edge of the new rub rail and hull after you install the rail.

Dab some PB Blaster on the nuts and between the flanges & let soak before you try to separate. Once the nuts & bolts are off, you can twist & pull from the prop to slide the shaft rearward. Might need to tap the flange with a rubber mallet to help break it loose. Careful, the brass is soft & you don't want to damage the faces by prying.

Wakeplate turnbuckle is the common term. Let me know if you need one. I'm adding electric actuators & won't need my old one's. They're oxidized, but functional - might clean up o.k.

There's a plastic trim piece ~1/2" wide that is inserted around the base of the windshield frames. Try sliding it to one side to open a gap at the end that you can pry it loose from. Careful, mine were beat up & I'm having a hard time sourcing new. With the trim out, you'll have access to the bolt heads (mine were nutted from below, but I've seen em just screwed in)

NeilMcg
11-22-2010, 06:24 PM
Thanks guys, I appeciate the help. I'm assuming PB blaster is some sort of anti seizing compund. I'll check it out.

NeilMcg
11-25-2010, 02:51 AM
Cadunkle - I picked up a "new surplus" assembly from Great Lakes Skipper. Some of thier stuff is a bargin, some not so much. Originally for now defunct Gekko, but the measurements were perfect. Haven't installed yet, but came complete with new rudder, top sleeve with lip seals and zircs, s/s tiller arm, and bottom plate for $150. Skidim & Viper also carry them (pretty universal) for a little more.

Neil - rubbery stuff at the hull joint is most likely silicone. Can be removed with a razor blade and power eraser. Typically you'll run a new bead between the lower edge of the new rub rail and hull after you install the rail.

Dab some PB Blaster on the nuts and between the flanges & let soak before you try to separate. Once the nuts & bolts are off, you can twist & pull from the prop to slide the shaft rearward. Might need to tap the flange with a rubber mallet to help break it loose. Careful, the brass is soft & you don't want to damage the faces by prying.

Wakeplate turnbuckle is the common term. Let me know if you need one. I'm adding electric actuators & won't need my old one's. They're oxidized, but functional - might clean up o.k.

There's a plastic trim piece ~1/2" wide that is inserted around the base of the windshield frames. Try sliding it to one side to open a gap at the end that you can pry it loose from. Careful, mine were beat up & I'm having a hard time sourcing new. With the trim out, you'll have access to the bolt heads (mine were nutted from below, but I've seen em just screwed in)

Let me know what you want for them, I'll buy them in a sec. Tks

mapleleaf
11-25-2010, 09:04 PM
Here's a link to the thread where I was taught to separate the drive shaft form the coupler, took me a bit, but the advice , as always, was top notch.
https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?t=7751

NeilMcg
11-27-2010, 05:14 PM
Thanks Leaf, this will help much!

NeilMcg
12-27-2010, 08:21 PM
Been absent for awhile ( work man....), but the cap and engine are coming out mid January. I did notice however that my best msmt of the floor was around 3/8". I ordered samples of Coosa and Nida board 3/4". I was wondering what thickness for those who replaced their floor used. Am concerned that using 3/4" could raise the deck height so that the lip of the cap would have a gap against the hull. (Also, Anyone have experience with using a front end loader to do the lifting? Any pointers on how to teather the cap? Was thinking of roping the four cleats tied to a central point at the center. Please let me know if I'm heading for disaster!


Other progress..finally got the windshield off.
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/100_0048-2.jpg

Was wondering about this
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/100_0047-1-1.jpg

Okie Boarder
12-28-2010, 05:52 PM
You could go with the thicker board and...

A) Reduce the stringer height to compensate.
B) Cut the bottom of the top cap to compensate.

I would say if you tied to all four corners and to a center point you would be good as far as the top being lifted well. You might run into some issues with it wanting to tip and swing. Maybe tie something like a 2 x 4 across the two front and then another across the two rear cleats, then lift with those to make it want to be a little more stable.

NeilMcg
12-28-2010, 09:53 PM
Okie:
That's what I was thinking also. I guess the big thing is keeping it level to to the original. I guess that's the challenge. The pics to come will tell the tale. Stay tuned!

NeilMcg
12-28-2010, 10:27 PM
Just hired the lifter to hoist the engine and cap Saturday Jan 15. Oh shit...here we go

sybrmike
12-28-2010, 11:06 PM
I'd try to lift as vertical as possible from at least the 4 cleats. Others with Sunsports can better tell how stiff the cap is & if spreaders are indeed necessary. Make sure you've got enough lift on the loader for the inner skirt of the cap to clear the hull seam.

Like Okie said, just cut the stringer height down to compensate for the thicker floor. Be sure to measure better than I did though so you don't have to trim the bottom of the cap (like I did!).

Oh sh!#? No Sh!# It's not that bad - really...

NeilMcg
12-28-2010, 11:39 PM
Sounds like I have some grinding to do...Oh Brother....

dshaff24
01-17-2011, 11:57 PM
Fyi- When I lifted my cap off with the forklift.. The weakest point was the nose! I had a six point harness made up with rachet straps and rope and most the of tension was on the middle and rear.. The front was basically to keep it balanced! This worked perfect!

Also when I reinstalled the Cap I had 4 friends + me and we just lifted the cap onto the boat! So its definitly possible if it has to be that way!

mapleleaf
01-18-2011, 12:14 AM
Been absent for awhile ( work man....), but the cap and engine are coming out mid January. I did notice however that my best msmt of the floor was around 3/8". I ordered samples of Coosa and Nida board 3/4". I was wondering what thickness for those who replaced their floor used. Am concerned that using 3/4" could raise the deck height so that the lip of the cap would have a gap against the hull. (Also, Anyone have experience with using a front end loader to do the lifting? Any pointers on how to teather the cap? Was thinking of roping the four cleats tied to a central point at the center. Please let me know if I'm heading for disaster!


Other progress..finally got the windshield off.
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/100_0048-2.jpg

Was wondering about this
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/100_0047-1-1.jpg
Pretty sure you're pointing at the keyway that holds the drive shaft and trans coupler together, it didn't happen when you ran aground.

rlhahn
01-30-2011, 07:15 PM
I am doing about the same project as you. I'll post my pics as I move along. I'll be pulling my gas tank out this week. I think I'll need to brace my swim deck from the inside somehow. Any ideas on that? It feels spongey when I put weight on it. My rear seat has rot as well. I'm sand blasting trailer this week too.

NeilMcg
01-30-2011, 09:10 PM
It's safe to say that your project is significantly more sophisticated than mine, but here's what I've found so far:

When I climbed onto the platform last year, the upper bolts pulled through, which was the first evidence of a problem. When I pulled the tank, I saw that there were small blocks (about 3x3in) flush to the inner transom where each bracket bolt went through. I decided to replace those with larger brass blocks cushioned with a rubber mat and multiple washers in varying size (like a cone aft to front) to disperse the force against the transom. I'm way behind in the project, but will show the pics once it's done. Looking great so far...you're gonna have a brand new boat when you're done!

rlhahn
02-02-2011, 11:47 PM
Thank you guys soooo much for all your posts. It gave me the info and, more importantly, the courage to tackle this. I bought this boat off craigs list for $1500, knowing the motor lost oil pressure. Pulled the motor and broke it down. Piston sleeves need polishing, new piston rings, new cams and cam shaft. While motor is out I thought "why not wet sand and put new paint on...

I opened a can of worms there. Started pulling seats out and found some rot. Being a carpenter I know that where there is rot on the surface there is usually rot in the substructure. I had my fingers crossed because the deck was new, but when I did a core check on the joist it showed rot also. Crap! I'm gutting her. She's had her top off before because there is a thousand rivots and two pounds of silicon holding it down...good times.

NeilMcg
02-03-2011, 12:57 AM
I had the same fear of doing this, as I am nowhere near the skill as a carpenter. And work has me way behind in my intended time schedule. But this boat is my late father's and I'm determined to bring it back to life and keep it in the family.

I too found water as I began taking the foam out and worse yet, discovered rot in the engine mounts (a tip from Mikey) ...I knew I was in trouble. The inboard stringers and engine mounts are completely rotted, as well as most of the floor, so I decided to go the distance. After a lot of thought and cost analysis, I decided to gut the stringers, leave the resin forms as molds and fill with seacast, and then use 3/4 Coosa board #20 for the floor. It's expensive, but it doesn't require glass and resin, so the difference in total cost is neglible, plus I get a significant reduction in weight. I'm at $2,900 for the upholstery and about $1,200 for the floor and Seacast. Add another $1,000 for the damaged steering, and $600 for the exterior finish. Most keep the costs under hat, but I think it's beneficial for others to understand how much it takes to do a project like this. The best advise I can give is to go low and slow and you'll realise that it is doable, but it is a HUGE investment in time. (But, like me I bet you'll love it!) I think by the time I'm done, I'll have $8,500 in it. But that's better than $38k for a new one and even $15K for a used one. You're on the right track. Just remember that it takes more guts than skill. You CAN do this and it will turn out great.
There are many skilled people far beyond us here who are on your side to help.

Sybrmike
OkieBoarder
WakeMikey
Mapleleaf
rludtke
salty87
cadunkle
wotan2525
dshaff24

All these guys have helped in large and subtle ways. Don't be timid to ask them. They're more than willing to share their knowledge.
Neil

NeilMcg
02-03-2011, 10:44 PM
Snapfish has completely changed and I can no longer post photos...Anyone have any suggestions?

oldman
02-03-2011, 10:57 PM
NeilMcg
There are a lot of post or threads of good quality pros that could do your stringers at a fair price. There is still a ton of work for you to do, but that job done would put you in the drivers seat faster. The ice on the lakes will be melting soon!

NeilMcg
02-03-2011, 11:05 PM
Thanks, But I was referring to how to get my photos on there. I think I may have figured it out. Very impressive work you've done so far!

NeilMcg
02-03-2011, 11:52 PM
Ok. Got the photo thing resolved.

Although I'm way behind, I finally got some work done:

Floor being removed:
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/100_0103-2.jpg

Met with the mechanic today. Although I had no plans to mess with it, looks like I'm going to have over 300hp!!
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/100_0102-1.jpg

Rlhahn: This what I meant by reinforcing the bolts for the swim platform against the transom
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/100_0099-1.jpg

Any suggestions on a quick way to remove the foam?
Thanks.

Okie Boarder
02-04-2011, 12:46 AM
A little late on the photos, but Photo Bucket is a good one.

Foam removal is tough...straight shovel, chisel, air chisel, dynamite ;-)

rlhahn
02-04-2011, 09:28 AM
Ahhh. Mine does have plates, but they still move quite a bit. I think I'm going to try and manufacture one long plate that connects all three supports.
As far as the foam goes, I used a sawsall (w/ a long blade), and then an orbital sander with 60 grit. It's messy though. My son helped by holding the shop vac hose while I worked.

sybrmike
02-04-2011, 01:43 PM
I used a "sharp shooter" shovel to cut the foam from the stringer edges, then into ~6" square blocks, then pry the foam out in sections - kinda like carving brownies outta a pan. A 4" putty knife made a good scraper. Messy, tedious work for sure, but looks like you're making good progress.

rlhahn - the loading on the platform brackets is vertical, so you're better off making the backing plates taller instead of wider. I really like how Okie's go all the way up and capture the tow rings as well. Here's a shot from his thread that I saved cause I'd like to do the same...

87SunSportMikeyD
02-04-2011, 01:45 PM
Neil - Thanks for the nice words; like you said, it makes me happy to give back and help spread the Supra vibe. I wish I could work with boats more but it's a great hobby too. ;)

Rlhahn - For the price, you will come out ahead in the long run. It sounds like you are mechanically inclined, which helps lol. We will be watching! While I wouldn't discourage you from posting here, I would encourage you to start a thread of your own about your restoration so you can get our undivided attention and get all your questions answered at length. What year and model did you get there? Oh and describe your on the water activities to us. Family or buddies? Ski or board/surf or mix?

SybMike - That is a GREAT shot! Important area to know what is going on back there.

Okie Boarder
02-04-2011, 05:20 PM
To add some description to the picture sybr posted...

It appears as though there was a build up of plywood and glass to make it a couple layers thick, then the tinted gelcoat or bilgecoat was coated on. Finally a piece of 1/4" thick aluminum plate was adhered to the surface and that's what they used to bolt through. The swim deck and the rear transom strap hooks all use that area for support on the left and right...definitely very solid! You can see they also did that in the middle up top and toward the bottom for the tow ring and for the middle swim platform support, respectively.

oldman
02-04-2011, 06:22 PM
To add some description to the picture sybr posted...

Finally a piece of 1/4" thick aluminum plate was adhered to the surface and that's what they used to bolt through.

Okie
I think you might have a HD 3/8 plate back there.

rlhahn
02-05-2011, 08:59 AM
I used a "sharp shooter" shovel to cut the foam from the stringer edges, then into ~6" square blocks, then pry the foam out in sections - kinda like carving brownies outta a pan. A 4" putty knife made a good scraper. Messy, tedious work for sure, but looks like you're making good progress.

rlhahn - the loading on the platform brackets is vertical, so you're better off making the backing plates taller instead of wider. I really like how Okie's go all the way up and capture the tow rings as well. Here's a shot from his thread that I saved cause I'd like to do the same...


You're right, I'll do it like that. Thanks for the pic.

rlhahn
02-05-2011, 10:07 AM
Neil - Thanks for the nice words; like you said, it makes me happy to give back and help spread the Supra vibe. I wish I could work with boats more but it's a great hobby too. ;)

Rlhahn - For the price, you will come out ahead in the long run. It sounds like you are mechanically inclined, which helps lol. We will be watching! While I wouldn't discourage you from posting here, I would encourage you to start a thread of your own about your restoration so you can get our undivided attention and get all your questions answered at length. What year and model did you get there? Oh and describe your on the water activities to us. Family or buddies? Ski or board/surf or mix?

SybMike - That is a GREAT shot! Important area to know what is going on back there.

I've been wanting to start my own thread, but can't figure out how. I may be mechanically inclined, but I'm for sure not computer savvy...ha! Any help?

NeilMcg
02-05-2011, 08:38 PM
Pretty simple.

After clicking on Supra modifications, you'll see a button at the top left that reads "New Thread". It's a blank slate for you to call it whatever you'd like and you can start posting your work.
Good luck!

NeilMcg
02-05-2011, 08:40 PM
Just did a coulple of hours measuring the floor (from the cockpit back) and I came up with only 55 sq feet of flooring, which seems a bit low. How many 4x8 sheets of flooring did any of you use for you projects?
Just wonderin
Thanks

oldman
02-05-2011, 10:12 PM
Met with the mechanic today. Although I had no plans to mess with it, looks like I'm going to have over 300hp!!


NeilMcg
I'm also having my engine rebuilt. Just wondering what type of modifications are needed to go from 240 to over 300 HP. EFI?

NeilMcg
02-05-2011, 11:26 PM
We're using a Summit package that includes a new intake,cam, lifters, rods rockers and flathead pistons which will bring compression to approx 11:1. Special ignition changes are also in the works. He's betting on 310 once on the dyno. The ft/lbs are another thing which needs to be addressed.

I looked at EFI, but it just wasn't worth it. Too much electronics, fuel return line...Had to put the brakes on at some point with this thing. As a 'footer, 44 is my max speed I need anyway. It'll just be nice to get it to 50+ for show!

oldman
02-06-2011, 10:56 AM
NeilMcg
That's really cool that your having your engine dyno tested. You'll have to let us know what the numbers come in at. I'm looking into a DUI distributor, ask your motor man what he thinks and let me know. Thanks

NeilMcg
02-07-2011, 06:19 PM
I'll ask him about it. I've never heard of it, so it'll be interesting to learn and I'll pass it along.

NeilMcg
02-09-2011, 11:14 PM
NeilMcg
That's really cool that your having your engine dyno tested. You'll have to let us know what the numbers come in at. I'm looking into a DUI distributor, ask your motor man what he thinks and let me know. Thanks

I talked with him and he said it was a superior product. But the cost is too high. I'm hoping I'll get what I want with the package.

NeilMcg
02-19-2011, 01:53 AM
Finally... got the engine out

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/100_0130-1.jpg

I have no idea how to remove the rudder assembly out to get the vertical post straightend out. Can anyone help?

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/100_0129-1.jpg

This happened when the engine was taken out. Since running aground, I was wondering if this is a problem. Any thoughts?

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/Neil2112/100_0132-1.jpg

Thanks for any help

oldman
02-19-2011, 12:11 PM
Finally... got the engine out


I have no idea how to remove the rudder assembly out to get the vertical post straightend out. Can anyone help?



This happened when the engine was taken out. Since running aground, I was wondering if this is a problem. Any thoughts?



Thanks for any help
NeilMcg
You can spray it down with pent. oil. Put the nut back on the threaded
stud a few threads, then tap it loose. (hard rubber or brass hammer). You should be able to move the wedge stud back and forth. Move it to the loose spot, it won't come out till the rudder shaft drops down out of lever arm. Try loosening the packing nut. Try taping the rudder shaft down and off of arm. Don't hit it with anything hard rubber hammer wood doll. Puller if needed. I think you might have to put a couple bolts back in flange if you back off the packing nut and hopefully the nut might help break the arm free.
Good Luck
Also PSS makes a nice dripless seal from Skidim.

NeilMcg
02-19-2011, 06:58 PM
Thanks,
I'll let you know what happens

wotan2525
02-21-2011, 12:30 PM
I'm guessing that the prop-shaft moving that much once released from the tranny means that your strut is bent. Just another item to add to the list.

mapleleaf
02-21-2011, 05:55 PM
I'm guessing that the prop-shaft moving that much once released from the tranny means that your strut is bent. Just another item to add to the list.

ditto, strut straightening time!!!

NeilMcg
04-21-2011, 01:01 PM
Computer died...finally I got my new one.

You guys were right. I ended up buying a new strut from SkiDim and am having the shaft checked. I may go to a 13x14 prop for a little better top end (thoughts?) Upholstery is 75% done. Floor will be in this weekend and once the carpet is laid, I'll re-join the hull/deck. Engine will be in within 3 weeks and then off to the graphics shop.


https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1867
https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1873
https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1872
https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1869

wotan2525
04-21-2011, 03:39 PM
Whoa! The upholstery looks AWESOME! Did you do it yourself?!

NeilMcg
04-21-2011, 09:59 PM
Can't say I did. The place is I had it done is pretty cool. They are nothing but upholstery. It's better than when we bought it. It's the top of line vinyl by Morbern, called ambassador. Took nearly 7 months, but at least I can see the finish line.

jmpotter
04-22-2011, 12:44 PM
The doghouse base looks great.

I did mine in PVC so that it would never be a problem again.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/jmpotter/doghousebase.jpg

NeilMcg
04-23-2011, 10:03 AM
Looking back on it, that's a great idea. Ended up spending more than I wanted and I still have the chance of rot.

NeilMcg
05-31-2011, 12:42 AM
Latest progress-Upholstery is all done:
https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1962

New Dash with new lighting and gauges:
https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1959

Carpet changed from red to fossil:
https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1961

Proposed color scheme from the graphics guy. Wave will be the same as the pin stripe:
https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1956

More pics to come. I'm about a month behind schedule, but at the worst it'll be ready by the 4th.

Okie Boarder
05-31-2011, 11:05 AM
Coming along nicely and looking good.

jet
06-02-2011, 01:38 PM
I want in on this one. Whats up guys

NeilMcg
06-02-2011, 06:20 PM
Jet,
In short, 87 Sunsport. 656hrs. Lots of rot and pretty much a solo project.

Seperated the hull/deck, fixed the bad wood. Installed new carpet and had all the upholstery re-done. Bought a new shaft, strut, prop and finally had to admit defeat with the rudder, so I bought a new one as well. I have lots of pics and I'll start posting them again.

Setting up the scaffold
https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1968

https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1967

https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1969

Engine is now installed, I just have to get it aligned properly (thanks Clint)
https://forum.supraboats.com/picture.php?albumid=247&pictureid=1958

More pics to come

wotan2525
06-02-2011, 06:45 PM
Reading these threads almost makes me want to rebuild mine again. Almost. (Ok not really.... it's just super cool that there is no a resource where you can see how something should have been done! When I did it I just sort of stumbled my way through it and can think of at least 10 things I should have done differently.)

NeilMcg
06-03-2011, 03:34 PM
Same here,
Can't believe how many times I said "Why in the world did I do that??"

NeilMcg
06-05-2011, 09:20 AM
Stupid alert:

Began riviting the hull/deck back and although I knew it would be a lot of hours and tweaking it went back actually ok...until...

During my time having the hull seperated, I braced everything except the bow section. I never would have guessed that area could drift inward. I now have to buy a jack bar and somehow get it underneath the front section of the bow to push the sides out. Make sure you brace the entire hull if you're considering doing this.

sybrmike
06-06-2011, 12:31 PM
I had a similar situation putting my cap back on. It didn't line up perfectly with the old holes (to be expected), but managed to get a fit good enough all around to rivet/screw in place. My "stupid" moment was forgetting that the original tell tale sign that the floor/stringers were rotten was that the center of the the cap at the bow had sagged inward with no support underneath to the point that the center windshield wouldn't close.

It had been that way so long that the cap had taken a "set" in that position. I used a bottle jack up under the playpen to raise the center walkthrough/icechest area until the windshield would close & then attached aluminum angle brackets between the floor and bottom edge of the top cap in that area to hold things in place. That was a month ago & so far nothing's moved (the windshield gap is still the same) sitting in my garage.

If it's the walls of the hull that have drifted inward, you might try running some long screws from the outside, through the cap, into the hull wall to pull it out tight to the cap. Mine originally had alternating screws & rivets & that's what I went back with. The screws really helped pull the two pieces together in a few places before riveting.

NeilMcg
06-06-2011, 07:30 PM
I never thought of using a lag screw (if that's what you mean) to pull it back. The rub rail will cover everything anyway. Brilliant man..never occurred to me. Thanks!

NeilMcg
05-17-2012, 09:22 PM
Hey everyone,
Had a family tragedy which put the project on low priority for quite some time . It's all back together (photos to come soon), but I wondered if anyone knows of a reputable painter in the NW PA or Eastern OH area. That's pretty much the last thing I need to do...except to get the baby to start.
Thanks