Auto Ballast help??

[jet]

OK..time to get ready for the auto ballast for in my Comp (yeah I said comp). 400 front and 600 in the rear all hidden. How did you do yours?? Any ideas floating around out there. Iam going to use 1100 or 2000 Rule pumps. My only big concerns are the venting the thru hulls and then to find out they are the wrong height?? What to do?? Pic's, ideas or chatting would help. Thanks Jet

[dusty2221]

Pretty sure you will have to pull the entire floor, and remove th foam between the stringers. Then measure how much you can fint under, slap the bags in, and floor over em....or buy a new boat!

[sybrmike]

I can only speak theoretically as I await UPS to deliver of the majority of my planned ballast components (2100# hidden + 750# surf) from Wakemakers today. Jumping off the deep end I know, but the kids wanna surf & figure now's the time while she's still in pieces.

I'm going the impeller pump route, but based on my research - if you're going aerator pumps, then I'd put a check valve on the vent from each bag (plus others on the fill/drain lines). Vented loops can serve the same purpose, but with the limited freeboard of your comp there's not much height differential or install room to play with. I'd locate the vent and drain thru hulls just below the rubrail at it's highest point along the hull length when it's weighted and on what will typically be your non-surf side (if you plan to surf it - otherwise, don't matter). Locating the vent check valve right up tight against the underside of the highest point on the gunwale will buy you a little more. This will minimize bag leakage through the vent when listing. Basically, water will seek it's lowest level, so the bags will only hold water level with the thru hull/check valve height (whatever that height is depending on your boat's orientation/list/tilt/etc.). Yeah, the extra tubing length and height on the drain thru hull might slow your drain speed a little, but it's not much & you're not pumping a whole lot of ballast.

I'd give Jason @ WM a call - super friendly and patient while working through my system design.

BTW - Thanks. I'm stealing your set up for the extended sundeck/ballast area & tweaked it a bit to be like the rear ballast in an Outback. 450# under the rear bench when it's down for seating, 900# when the rear bench is up top as sundeck. Looking forward to see what others say & what you end up with. Good luck.

[mapleleaf]

love dusty's idea's but just to be sure how low did you want it to sit????

[jet]

Sybrmike..I want to see some pic's! mine was based on the X7 mastercraft except there doors open to the sides of the boat, I saw the X7 at the boat show and that started my gerbal wheels turning. lol It turned out great though, still need to add gas shocks to the fat sac holder and a front to box it in..the 750 sac likes to bleed its size all the way to the eng cover so be sure and box it in but remember it will mold really easy. I think your keeping your boat at your detached garage though right? you can just prop it open then. Dont listen to Dusty he's just pokin the bear with the new boat thing. Next year man..next year. :rolleyes:

[Okie Boarder]

Yeah, I'd definitely start looking at what you will need to do to ensure proper prime for fill and for drain. That is always the big issue with aerator style pumps. Will all of your bags basically be at floor level, yet hidden?

Something to think about would be the impeller style, but keep in mind where they have to be placed. The key positive aspect of them is it simplifies the design and placement of pumps.

Also, think about your goals. Do you want everything filled in five minutes or less or do you want it simple and cost effective?

[Ptownkid]

Pretty sure you will have to pull the entire floor, and remove th foam between the stringers. Then measure how much you can fint under, slap the bags in, and floor over em....or buy a new boat!


Is it really fine to remove foam?

[dusty2221]

Jet, I really think you could hide at least 400 on each side under the floor by just removing foam.

[sybrmike]

Dusty - pulling the foam is how I REMOVED 400 lbs! :)

Ptown - I sure hope so, that's what Okie & I both did...

Damn, Maple - put a snorkle intake and periscope on that thing wontcha.

Jet - I haven't figured all the details out yet, but leaning towards a traditional rear bench seat ~18" deep x width to match the ski locker lid. I'll build some supports into the side panels on either side of the bench seat to support the seat in it's "up" position level with the ski locker lid. I've sketched a few ideas for a vanity panel hinged to the front edge of the bench seat so it can fold and lay flat against the bottom of the seat when "down" and then drop down and be vertical below the front edge of the bench seat when "up". Still working on how to capture the bottom edge of the vanity panel in the seat base to contain the bags when in the "up" max ballast position. Or, I may just let the seat base contain the bottom half of the sacs & leave the top half exposed. I'll work out the final details on the fly as I'm building the new interior (if I can ever get to that point - new LED lights are mounted on the trailer, just need to wire them).

[Okie Boarder]

I wouldn't go removing foam unless you are doing a rebuild. I'm sure the foam acts somewhat structural on these boats when the wood is somewhat rotten away.

Sybr,

Why not keep it simple and just rebuild the rear bench to fit a bag or tank under it and support the ski locker for the same purpose? Or are you trying to make the sun deck part have the ability to be bigger?

[jet]

With the comp's there is no room under the floor 4"-6" not enough room. Foam..add it back when your done, a closed hollow box can sound like a drum and the foam can deaden that alot.

My weight will be on the floor in the closed bow 400?? 500??
Rear: 750 sac in fat sac box in rear. Will only fill to 600??-700??

Sybr: call or pm me if you need pic's or idea help.

[sybrmike]

Agreed, Okie. Don't pull the foam unless new stringers & structure are going in. I think the foam was the only thing holding mine together since the wood was so far gone. But I think it literally was a few hundred lbs of saturated foam that I removed. Also, coast guard only requires flotation foam for hulls under 20', so the Saltare & Sunsport are exempt - but it's still a personal call.

Yes, the rear bench is intended to be "adjustable". Rear bench "down" for seating & still hold two MC X2 sacs half full or "up" for sundeck & fill the sacs full. This will give me the flexibility for additional seating when we have a bunch of passengers (don't need the extra ballast as much then), or additional weight when running a small crew. The new glass/coremat ski locker is off the mold & just needs some finish work. It will be supported & plumbed for a 400 sac.

[sybrmike]

Yeah, Jet - I thought about subfloor ballast as well, but even in my Salt there just wasn't much room down there (I think Okie came to the same conclusion). I even ran some rough calcs & looked like the amount of original foam wasn't enough to float the boat. Hope the noise isn't increased too much - I want to keep that "luxury" feel that these old Supra's were known for.

Thanks for the offer - I'll def be hittin you up when I get to that point.

[jet]

Put something in there to lower the sound otherwise you will even here water trickling. lol

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Hahah well you sure stirred up some activity didnt ya! It shouldnt be too tough of a project, you can even tackle it in phases.

I assume you are keeping your bags in their current locations? And bags are above floor. If your pumps are ignition and water proof you can throw them in the bilge. If not you can put them under the spotters seat or in the gunnels. All the hose gets routed either through the bilge or through the gunnels.

Dont get the clear hose, get the ribbed hose.

To get the heights right on the overflow valves, bring a bucket onto the boat. Hook up the overflow valve and fill the sac MAKING SURE someone is holding the overflow valve/watching that sac all the time to prevent overflows.

Place the bucket near the gunnel and hold the valve to simulate the height you want. If the sac is full but no water comes out, it's too high. If you can't keep the sac full because it drains out the valve all the time, it's too low.

Phase 1 - Plumb pumps and hoses
Phase 2 - Hook up and drill overflows
Phase 3 - Hook up dash rocker switches

[BigCity444]

Not that I would personally ever do this but just thinking aloud...

If you don't have enough room, if you decide to remove the foam or not, what about raising the floor?

[jet]

I would do that on a taller boat like a Sunsport because they are deeper. Mine is so shallow at the rear though. you can sit in the rear seat..put your arm over the side of the boat and touch the water. Pretty low profile. I call the comps the Corvetts of the water.

[jet]

Hey Mikey whats up with the clear hose?? I would prefer the clear to see movement. And will my pumps need to lay horizontal or upright??

[dusty2221]

Clear kinks easier

[jet]

Ahh..got it.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

I thought the clear would be fine, and it is, but it does kink easier. If I could do it again, the ribbed hose would be the clear winner.

The pumps can be upright or sideways or whatever. Doesnt matter. What does matter is their height above the floor. They are not self priming, so we need to help prime the pumps. Drain pumps should be close to the sac (if possible) and lower than the sac to help prime. The first fill pump should be near the thru-hull. Etc, you get the picture.

Any boat dealer will have the rocker switches. There are two kinds (I THINK I remember, Jason @WM would know more for sure, actually check his website) I THINK they are called DPST and DPDT (double pole single throw, etc). If I rememner right one type is used to reversible pumps (DPDT) and the other for one-way pumps. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I'll edit this post. :p

Edited my above post a little

[stinky_1]

I have seen some pretty neat looking auto ballast setups as well that use a thru hull on the bottom side to scoop the water into the bags while the boat is on plane. No pumps at all were used. The drains just get put at the back lower section of the hull. When you are on plane again you open the valve and the bags will just dump the water on their own.

It may keep costs down, and add filling speed. I have been considering this if I end up going for actual installed ballasts. I have to figure weighting out first though

[jet]

I would love that type of system and think Its cool as hell. My prob is that I drop in right where I ride in a small cove and dont want to have to drive around in circles to fill or drain. But very cool.

[Okie Boarder]

The black ribbed hose that wake makers sells is a good choice. The clear works good, but as others have said it can kink. It's a personal preference between ribbed and kinky when you break it all down. ;-)

As far as the foam goes, I actually talked to Jim about this. Here's a recap of the Q & A...

Me: So if a Sunsport has all the original foam in it and it takes on water, what will happen?

Jim: It will swamp and the back end will sink first, then it will drop in the water until the first few feet of the bow are all that's sticking out and it will bob at the surface like that with air trapped up there.

Me: So what would happen with no foam?

Jim: Same thing.

[dusty2221]

http://www.fdsons.com/images/paint/s3/6910152.JPG

We can go ahead and mix with water, or wait till we get there. Your call.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

From what I understand, the problem with the pumpless ballast system is that the sacs must be under the floors. Else there isnt enough pressure to fill the bags. But hey if you are installing a dedicated ballast water pickup thru hull, it might be work giving it a shot.

[stinky_1]

I have seen a couple different setups. I cant find the link to the one with soft bags. This one here is with hard tanks that are clearly well above the floor.

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=199086

The idea is that the water pressure on that bottom side of the boat is much higher than the atmospheric pressure on the vent side of the bag. So it wants to force the water into the system. Open your valve up and the water will flow. It has to.

I guess it doesnt matter to the OP though since it is not going to work at the lake he goes to.

[jet]

Ha..ha..look at your avatar. lol

[dusty2221]

Figured you would like that. lol

[mapleleaf]

http://www.fdsons.com/images/paint/s3/6910152.JPG

We can go ahead and mix with water, or wait till we get there. Your call.

I hate to admit this, but 5 of those bags spent the weekend in my walk through locker this sept. Great wake, LOW bow.
Jet I'd be trying to keep as much weight forward as poss., like you didn't already know.......

[jet]

mapleleaf, I DONT know that?? What is your setup?? I usually run 600-700 rear and 400 front. Any other comp guys pipe in also. Jet

[jasonwm]

I thought the clear would be fine, and it is, but it does kink easier. If I could do it again, the ribbed hose would be the clear winner.
I definitely think something with a spiral reinforcement is worth the extra effort it may take to find it (you'll probably struggle locally, but online it should be pretty easy to find, and will actually be cheaper than the clear stuff that Home Depot and Lowe's sell ;) ).

Just make sure you stay away from the clear stuff, and the braid reinforced stuff. Both will kink over time, which will slow down the system significantly.


The pumps can be upright or sideways or whatever. Doesnt matter. What does matter is their height above the floor. They are not self priming, so we need to help prime the pumps. Drain pumps should be close to the sac (if possible) and lower than the sac to help prime. The first fill pump should be near the thru-hull. Etc, you get the picture.
I would just add that there are installation attitudes that aerator pumps are sensitive too, so you need to keep the discharge elbow on the pump at the highest point whenever possible. That will eliminate any chance of air becoming trapped in the pump body.


Any boat dealer will have the rocker switches. There are two kinds (I THINK I remember, Jason @WM would know more for sure, actually check his website) I THINK they are called DPST and DPDT (double pole single throw, etc). If I rememner right one type is used to reversible pumps (DPDT) and the other for one-way pumps. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I'll edit this post. :p
Regardless of the type of pump you'll want to use a DPDT (dual pole dual throw) switch. That will allow you to connect one of the positions of the switch for filling, and one for draining, so you can control two pumps, or both directions of a reversible pump with only one switch.

A DPST switch would have three positions for the switch (On-Off-On), but both of the on positions are connected to the same terminals inside the switch.

[QUOTE=Okie Boarder;47841]The black ribbed hose that wake makers sells is a good choice. The clear works good, but as others have said it can kink. It's a personal preference between ribbed and kinky when you break it all down. ;-)
I'm not even going to touch that one with a ten foot long p... never mind, I give up! :)


As far as the foam goes, I actually talked to Jim about this. Here's a recap of the Q & A...

Me: So if a Sunsport has all the original foam in it and it takes on water, what will happen?

Jim: It will swamp and the back end will sink first, then it will drop in the water until the first few feet of the bow are all that's sticking out and it will bob at the surface like that with air trapped up there.

Me: So what would happen with no foam?

Jim: Same thing.
Not that I'm proposing that someone should test that, but I'm not entirely sure any boat is made air tight, so while the same thing would probably happen initially with no flotation foam, ultimately that air will be purged and replaced with water.

I have no idea how long that would take, and for how we typically use these boats (small inland lakes and rivers), you'd probably be fine. For most people a catastrophe like that wouldn't be a matter of life and death like it is in the ocean.

[stinky_1]

something like this is what you DO want

http://www.truco.co.za/Images/products/SB%20Hose/PVC/CR-00001.jpg

Something like this is what you do NOT want

http://www.rockaroundtheblock.com.au/images/BlackSpiralTubing2.jpg

the ribbed stuff may be better kink resistant, but you do not want that tight of a bend on your run anyway. The clear stuff will be totally smooth inside so you get ALL the flow benefits of the pump that you bought. If your not worried about flow then go with the ribbed hose and get a small slow pump. No point in throwing a 1200 gpm pump in your system then fill it with ribbed hoses

[jasonwm]

Sorry, but I have to politely disagree here. The braid reinforcement in the hose you posted only increases the maximum pressure that hose can withstand. That is it's sole purpose, and the only reason it is sold. Ballast systems don't generate much pressure (like a domestic water system, which is why that hose is sold at Home Depot and the like), so we don't need to worry about that.

It's impossible to say for sure, but I'm 99.5% sure that ribbed hose has a smooth interior (it's pretty hard to find stuff with an internal rib because of how it's made), so it will not alter the laminar flow characteristics of the fluid passing through it any more than the braid reinforced stuff will. Obviously it would be important to determine the hose you're using is smooth inside, but if you go with a reputable retailer that sells ballast products, that should be a given (if they know what they're doing).

I agree that bends approaching 90 degrees are to be avoided, but you can have a pretty tight bend with a ribbed hose that is still considered a sweep, and won't have a significant impact on the volume of water flowing through it. The reality is that in the relatively tight confines of these boats, and as bags fill and drain repeatedly throughout the day, it's important to have a hose that essentially won't kink.

[mapleleaf]

Glad WM is chiming in on this, semi auto ballast in a Comp/ (My Conbrio!) has always challenged me as well, on a small budget everything's a challenge I guess!!

[stinky_1]

I agree, it is hard to tell if that hose is smooth on the inside or not. If the hose you are using is smooth on the inside then your on the right path. If its bumpy or ribbed on the inside you will be restricting flow.

The braided stuff is reinforced for pressure protection which is not really a concern on a ballast setup. It does also offer protection from colapsing under suction. This is the primary reason why the clear stuff with no braided component is a bad choice, it will eventually colapse on itself and will seriously restrict your flow.

The stuff with the ribbing only on the outside will offer a lot more protection for pressure as well, but the space in between the ribbs will suck in on itself on the suction side, and can create a minimal restriction to flow. The solid hose with the braided part would maintain its size all the time except in the case of very very tight bends.

At the end of the day in real world figures though we are probably arguing about 30 seconds to one minute of extra fill time over all. So it may not be worth the effort to argue. If someone wanted to know how to do it "right", I would want to stress that smooth hose, with kink protection, and wide sweeping bends will be the "best" setup.

Ribbed hose will certainly get the job done, and you just need to understand that you are sacrificing flow for your choice of hose.

I would think you will agree with this statement a bit better than my pictoral guide.

I will admit I have not seen a "ton" of factory installs. I deal with hoses and pumping pressure and suction lines at work all the time. So I do know at least a little of what I am talking about.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Sorry stinky but after two years of clear braided hose in my boat I respectfully disagree. Any 90degree bends have slightly collapsed. That one bag now fills much slower than the rest. When the system is draining (sucking out) the lines collapse even further. Any system will likely have some tight bends. The ribbed hose bends very easily and will NEVER kink no matter how tightly you make your bends.

My system still works fine with the clear hose, but for some of the tight bends I have cut the hose and replaced it with pvc elbows which is also not ideal for max flow rate. If I did another system I would use that ribbed hose.

Yay I didn't make any major errors in my post, Jason can I come work for WakeMakers now? :) :p

[stinky_1]

I guess I have been outvoted.:cool:

Not a problem though, as long as your ribbed hose is still smooth on the inside then you will be fine. I will certainly agree that if you have a tight bend your ribbed hose will go around that corner better than just about anything else. My biggest concern is that people will say "ribbed hose = good" and then they will buy something like this

http://www.coldwatercollection.com/images/categories/C987.jpg

and I doubt anyone here would agree that this stuff is a good choice when building a built in ballast system.

[mapleleaf]

Jet, I figured your exp. was the same as mine in that my boat really benefits from weight up front (I took that quote form Jason at WM and it has proved great). That and your ballast numbers seem really dialed (maxed!) in, so I figured you knew what was the best balance in ur boat.
I never would'a put 1800 in mine this summer w/out watching your vid's first!
Still trying to find a way to get a better surf wave, not sure it's totally possible....

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Where are the vids of Jet with 1800? :)


Here are Wakemakers's selection of ribbed hose. Heheheheh
http://www.wakemakers.com/wakeboard-ballast-parts

They do look a lot smoother than the stuff you would find at the hardware store.

http://www.wakemakers.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/300x300/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/3/_/3_4_inch_ballast_hose.jpg

[jet]

No..I have always kept the 40/60 rule to keep the back end heavier and the nose from trying to dip. Have you tried the heavier up front and how did it drive?? Can you move your responce over to "Weight set-ups for Comps" Its under general chat. so we can put as much comp chat on 1 thread. thanks man.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

Well with the Supra Comp/Conbrio or even the SunSport there really isn't a huge wake following like there is with the SN2001. But that is starting to change, thanks to our forum. I wish I could see a model of the SN2001 hull and the Comp/SunSport hull(s) to compare.

The consensus on the SN2001 seems (to me at least) to be in the 1500-2000lb range for rear/around engine and 50-200 in the bow. The boat has a fairly flat bow with a shallow nose vee.

SunSports take about 12-1400 in back and 6-800 up front when weighted to the max. They have a much deeper vee in the nose and benefit from bow weighting.

I would imagine the Comp/Conbrio would be more similar to the SN2001's weighting.

POsted to other thread too

[jasonwm]

Mikey is spot on. All of these boats benefit tremendously from additional weight in the front (like closer to a 50/50 split), but with a closed bow, and the low freeboard, that can be really difficult to accomplish without swamping on the smallest wakes.