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shuswapslaysher
01-21-2011, 07:56 PM
New to the site and let me start by saying, Great work on the forums guys.

I have recently moved to the Shuswap Lake area in BC...
Im getting comfortable in the new job and i'm looking to invest in an older SS.

I plan to split the boat and rebuild.
i have scoured over the threads in this and many other sites researching, trying to figure out the best way to integrate ballast below the waterlilne.

my plan is to design this sunsport specifically with wakesurfing in mind.
I have bad ears and Im quite tired of forced eyelid water injections.

first off.. Im hoping to hear your input and ideas

secondly... i was wondering if any1 is in the process of this right now?
Would it be possible to get measurements of the stringers and bilge/bow areas under the floors?

third...has any1 seen any good links regarding structural foam instead of wood in a rebuild like this.

It has crossed my mind to reinforce the transom during the process and run a switchblade as well.

Keep your eyes peeled for an old skool sunsport willing to travel for the right one:-)

Okie Boarder
01-22-2011, 10:45 AM
The volume of space under the floor of a Sunsport would probably let you get about 500-600 pounds under the floor, max. You would have to consider doing a hard tank to provide support you would take away using that volume. It is possible that if you do hard tanks you might be able to get another few hundred pounds up front, but access to the tank and fittings would get tricky if there was ever problems. If you wanted to really step out of the box with an intent to primarily accomodate ballast, you could increase the volume of space available for ballast by making the stringers taller and cut away from the bottom of the top cap section. This would end up putting the floor closer to the top of the gunnels once put back together, but I bet you could gain 3-6" without it suffering too much and still being relatively safe. There really isn't a lot of room under there and it would take some creativity to gain the weight you want.

One thought is you could do tanks to get maybe 800 pounds total that is hidden away. In addition, you could use front bilge space, under rear seat space and the ski locker for more "hidden" ballast. That gives you the potential for another1200-1300 pounds that is still out of the way.

shuswapslaysher
01-22-2011, 07:30 PM
Thanx for ur input okie=-)
It is my intention to run the system in conjunction with a sac setup.
prob going to customize the rear of the interior (removing the ski locker all together) to incorporate a 650lbs rear seat sac with 370lbs tube sacs on both sides.. planning to fill those with a scoop on the hull of the boat and pump to empty...

i wonder if it possible to isolate the exhaust and build the ballast into the deeper part that runs along side the engine....possibly making that whole void from bow to stern a built in ballast? of course with baffling to prevent slosh, and air venting for quick fill/drain.

that would represent at least 1000lbs under the water line?

would running closed cell foam in all the other voids be enough?

im sure this would also make for a very long pocket on the surf wave,+ a great wake for the ppl who want to sk8.

im thinking that leaving a few inches from the transom open so there is room for power water gates...boxing it in and doing the baffles and air vent while the boat is spilit...gelcoating?? or something over the fiberglass on the inside of the ballast...then capping it seperate from the rest of the floor system...if there are any future issues, it would allow me to fix/fill if needed..

devovino
01-26-2011, 03:56 PM
I like your line of thinking, I will untimately be re-doing my floors, recently purchased a 87 Saltare, in the process of remodeling my upholstry/seats. Will ultimately be engrossed in the floor/stringer replacement, and have considered putting some ballast below the deck, and have been researching the best ways to do this. I am a little ways out from splitting the topcap, but would like to also make this saltare a surfing machine, so this seems a great way to do this instead ao having a bunch of fat sacks laying around on the floor. Will probably convert the rear seat/ski locker to accommodate sacks as well. The idea of a solid tank would probably work best, would not want a 1000 lbs of loose H20 sloshing around below the deck, seems like it could become problematic.
Maybe next winter I will perform this opreation, so it gives me time to do my homework, I like the idea of bringing the floor up 3-6 inches and cutting the top cap up to compensate, would imagine I could imagine reinforceing fiberglass on the hull to strengthen it up a bit would be a good idea. So cheers to the notion, keep me updated on any findings, and I will do the same. Good luck in your searchings for a "SALTARE", I think it would roll well on Lake Shoeshwap- The house boating capitol of Canada!

sybrmike
01-26-2011, 06:18 PM
I thought about underfloor ballast in my Saltare until I tore the floor up. Not that it can't be done, just not by me. There really wasn't that much room down below - inner stringer heights ~8-10" & less on the outers if I recall. The engine bumpouts and cross braces take up even more room between the stringers. Also, since I was rebuilding rotten stringers decayed by moisture trapped below the floor, I just couldn't bring myself to intentionally recreate that same scenario.

Raising the floor is a good idea especially if you can work out cross braces that don't interfere. There's a lot of length to work with, so every inch of height could add quite a bit. I looked at custom tube sacs with some clever access hatches. Another possibility is using the stringers as side walls and cross braces as baffles of sealed compartments (similar to how composite airplanes make fuel tanks), but you need to be confident in your ability to seal it up real well.

Ultimately, this is the direction I chose - a 10x16x70 400# sac under each side of the playpen (currently reworking the seat bracing to make room), another 400# sac in the ski locker, and two 18x20x32 450# sacs under a redesigned rear bench. The rear bench will be a convertible sundeck, so can fill the 2 sacs halfway with the bench down for seating or all the way with the bench up as sundeck. I also have an "optional" 20x20x50 surf sac to be placed on either side of the doghouse. One Johnson impeller pump for the bow and surf sacs & another for the rear sacs. Each sac will be individually valved so I can play with port/strbd and bow/stern balance to see what works best for regular/goofy/wake/surf. Don't know if I'll ever use em all maxed out at the same time, but that's 2100# "hidden" with only a single 750# on the floor. Won't know how well it works until I get er finished & back on the water, but should be plenty for me & the kids.

Good luck & let us know what you come up with (I might steal your solution when I rebuild her again in another 25 years...).

Okie Boarder
01-26-2011, 07:10 PM
As far as the foam is concerned, that is a point of debate and opinion. The foam originally in these boats is not enough to float them properly in a swamping situation even if you put back all the foam that was originally in there, from what I've found out. Many people have put foam in and many have opted to leave the foam out. It does add some structural rigidity and sound dampening, so it has a positive from that standpoint. It eventually will trap water and help to accelerate the rotting of any structure you rebuild, so that is a pretty big negative.

mapleleaf
01-26-2011, 07:27 PM
My thought on the foam was that I believe it would be better suited for the gun whales where it would help with buoyancy and keep the boat righted in a flip over situation, may have got that from the US Coast guard or read it here somewhere. Pretty sure its a better place for it than the floor....

docdrs
01-26-2011, 09:52 PM
The foam is like a spare tire.........may never need it in a million miles, or for all your vehicles, if you keep the maintenance up.........but it sure is nice to have it when your 500 miles from home and have a flat.

Okie Boarder
01-27-2011, 11:40 AM
But, the amount of foam they put in these boats isn't sufficient to really do anything. It would be the equivalent of having a spare tire and when it is time to use it you find out it is flat. It's a false sense of security.

wotan2525
01-27-2011, 01:52 PM
I wasn't planning on replacing the foam when I did my rebuild.... but.... at the last second I decided it was worth it just to reinforce the stringers and provide additional support for the floor. I know it's a trade off, but I felt it was worth the risk.

docdrs
01-27-2011, 01:59 PM
But, the amount of foam they put in these boats isn't sufficient to really do anything. It would be the equivalent of having a spare tire and when it is time to use it you find out it is flat. It's a false sense of security.

Are you sure about that? Ever see the submarined mastercraft? The flotation foam is what keeps it from sitting on the bottom. That's why lead should be carefully used as ballast as it increases the overall combined density of the boat.

Okie Boarder
01-27-2011, 02:52 PM
As far as I know, the foam isn't enough keep the boat floating at the surface flat. The information came from pretty reliable sources that know Supras. Maybe other manufacturers have enough where it works right. Foam or no foam, one of the older Supras would end up in the same position once enough water swamped it...bow up bobbing at the surface. I'm not sure if the same is true in a newer style Supra, though.

87SunSportMikeyD
01-27-2011, 05:16 PM
To be honest I don't really think you NEED to do subfloor ballast on the SunSport. Unless you upgrade the engine I personally would not run more than about 2000lbs ballast plus a small crew (no pun intended lol).

If I could improve my setup, I would probably do:
-Bow: 2x400lbs
-Rear: 1x400lbs rear bench seat base replaced with hard tank used in the Launch's rear bench seat
1x350 locker sac
~250lbs dry weight stashed in the gunwales.
Total: Wakeboarding ~1800lbs + crew
Surfing: 2200 + crew (that is wakeboard weight minus one 400lb bow sac, plus one 720 surf sac)

About the bow weight - with my two bow sacs, I can use both for wakeboarding. Or since they are close to the outer hull I can use just one or the other depending on if I want a regular or goofy wave. This is an advantage over having a large central sac.

Then you would not have any floor sacs unless you are surfing, and then only one big 720lb surf sac. BOOM!

shuswapslaysher
01-27-2011, 09:22 PM
Devo* Ive considered the saltare...in truth i like the stout look of the 1st gen sunsport...especially at the bow.+ i dont want to obligated to buy a bohemyth tow rig...baffles prevent slosh...i have to admit Okie really got me thinking about raising the floor in the rear section...=-)

mike*Ur wake will definately pump...im impatient and dont want to wait 10-15 min to fill and drain...pumps = clutter ...that is the reason for the thru hull forced fill...pump drain combined with gravity and under floor ballast should speed up the process..

Okie, maple,doc & wotan* thanx for clarifying my foam issue for me...i will definately be running foam under the floors in the voids...and most def. giving the top cap and gunwales a coat as well...i dont like getting flats..lmao

Mikey* i have terrible ears that take on more water than a sinking boat...i wear ear plugs and the speed impact of takin a biff while sk8ing usually = perforated ear drums.. so 70' behind the boat is an after thought for me...this is a purpose surf boat...dippin rub rail on the darkside...i have to thank you for all the kick as threads you've left all over the www. very inspiring to say the least...

Im wondering what ur guys take is on sealing the inside of the ballast system...im afraid that if i gelcoat it will deteriorate and crack over time plowing thru the sometime haggard swells of the shuswap or ...im thinking it might be better to do a water tight flexible rubber coating of some sort? anyone know of any products that would be suitable for an operation like this?

Here's whats goin thru my head ...


http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9864/stringers.th.png (http://img842.imageshack.us/i/stringers.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

pink=sacs (1 free surf sac for starbord/port) the rest hidden
yel=exhaust
blue = powered water gates 2.5-3"
green= baffles
purple=air vents
red= additional stringer work to box in the system
black=existing stringer system

Thanx for all the input guys=-)

Bottom line i want a 1 off boat that no one else has, keeps up with a sac'd out vdrive...my cahones keep telling me there is never too much weight.
keep slaysh'n :D

docdrs
01-27-2011, 11:29 PM
As far as I know, the foam isn't enough keep the boat floating at the surface flat. The information came from pretty reliable sources that know Supras. Maybe other manufacturers have enough where it works right. Foam or no foam, one of the older Supras would end up in the same position once enough water swamped it...bow up bobbing at the surface. I'm not sure if the same is true in a newer style Supra, though.

All the new foam floating regs go back to something like 1974......in order to prevent the earlier bow up useless 13% flotation rule.....but I'm no expert

87SunSportMikeyD
01-28-2011, 01:48 PM
Hey yeah sorry I could have left out all the wakeboarding references, by the time I really got typin I forgot you said it was a surf only boat (which is SUPER cool by the way).

For the record, MY system takes 15-20 mins to fill but that is with slow reversible pumps. If you were to use three or four sets of impeller pumps the whole thing could be full in about 3-5 minutes.

Also sorry to offtopic but have you considered a helmet with earflaps and/or professional quality (read: vented) watersports earplugs (not wax)? If you want to discuss at all we can start a new thread or somethin. Oh and thanks for the nice words. Hope my SunSport wave vids were helpful ;)

Okie Boarder
01-28-2011, 02:21 PM
All the new foam floating regs go back to something like 1974......in order to prevent the earlier bow up useless 13% flotation rule.....but I'm no expert

Are you talking the standard USCG floating regs?

shuswapslaysher
01-28-2011, 08:02 PM
I have looked into the helmets...but my problem is the pressure that is related to impact. my ear drums are mostly scar tissue, more so in my right ear...a result from 11 sets of tubes and multiple ear infuctions when i was a litl grom...so the force of my head hitting the water with plugs in is what does a number on my ears...think of it as someone slapping ur ears at the same time...hurts right...well my one eardrum ruptures on a yearly basis..doesn't even hurt anymore...and it pretty cool when i pinch my nose to equalize my ears the one whistles at an audible level that other ppl can hear...but hey work with wat ya got right.lol

okie an doc...uscg regs and ccg regs wont hold me back...its not like they are going to peel a 25 year old boat apart to see how much foam it has...lol

i should have named myself the "porpoise surfer"...holy crap thats a good name for the boat too. :D

chrisk
03-08-2011, 01:21 PM
I don't know if this was discussed earlier in this thread but khelfrich did a pretty cool sub-floor ballast system on his Rider. He basically constructed boxes to work as both support for stringers and floor and to hold ballast. I'm pretty sure he sealed them up with the same stuff he used for the stringers but you would have to ask him. His boat and rebuild thread are up in the classifieds section. I believe it's the 1984 Rider.

chrisk
03-08-2011, 01:28 PM
Mikey,

I was just thinking, to solve our problem of finding a hard tank to go under our rear bench seat, why couldn't we construct one out of marine ply? You would obviously have to waterproof it just as if you were doing stringers but I think it would be relatively easy to do. We'd just buy a sheet of ply, cut it to our exact dimensions, screw it together and poof, hard tank. Sealing in a fitting for hose probably wouldn't be too hard and if I'm doing my math right, a sheet of 4' x 8' ply would be enough for a decently sized tank. $55 at first search. Thoughts?

87SunSportMikeyD
03-08-2011, 05:39 PM
If you fiberglassed it, that should work no problem. I personally am looking for that hard tank from Supra. I have not really gone to the effort of trying to source part, but I'm pretty hopeful it's out there.

80's baby
04-26-2011, 02:56 PM
I just bought a 87 sunsport and I'm looking at replacing the floor this winter! Do you have any pics when you replaced your floor?

Okie Boarder
04-26-2011, 04:09 PM
Just the floor?