Aftermarket vs original rudder

[supramariah#1]

Boat info: 1988 supra mariah. 351 w.

I have a rudder that is very sloppy (not leaking) and is slightly tilted to the port side. Are the rudders suppose to be vertical with no tilt? Its almost like since the rudder is offset from the center of the prop coming out of the boat it is tilted to the center of the prop. Its super hard to turn starbord, easy to turn port. Also, if/when I change out the rudder how do the aftermarket smaller rudders compare to the original larger surface area rudder? Should I try to restore the original? Thanks. My wife lost the camera or i would insert pics. :(

[riveredge]

Rudder should be perfectly perpendicular to the hull, (if it were flat). If it's bent coming out of the boat, that's not right. It might be fixable, but more likely you'll need to get a new one. If it's hard to steer at speed, that's another sign. Mine was mediocre at best in terms of steering at speed, and when I pulled the rudder I found it was bent at the base slightly toward the stern and it had hairline cracks on both sides.

The newer style rudders should suit you just fine. Best price I've found on a complete assembly is at skidim.com, and that rudder will work with your boat. I just ordered one for mine yesterday, in fact. You might have to tune the rudder after installation (grinding a trailing edge)... read this: http://waterskimag.com/how-to/2001/06/14/torqued-out/

[riveredge]

Show and tell: if your rudder looks like this, you need a new one (see attached pics, especially the third one, you can see how bent the shaft is.

[supramariah#1]

So if I pull the gas tank, everything should be right there in front of me to pull the rudder, Correct?

Mine is definitely not as beat up as yours, but i do know now that its bent. would be nice to turn at speed. maybe its repairable. we will see. Thanks a ton. I will keep posting results.

[haugy]

So if I pull the gas tank, everything should be right there in front of me to pull the rudder, Correct?

Yes.

You can also access that area if you have little hands by removing the board behind the engine box. There is a center board that allows you to access the shaft right there. You should have two lines in the carpet back there, that's the board. You can pull it, stick your head down there and look back. Might be able to reach the bolts from there without pulling the tank. But I didn't ever pull the rudder on my Mariah so I don't know firsthand.

[beast 496]

Why don't you send your rudder in for repair? The OEM rudder is great handling especially for slow speed operation. "Henry Smith Repair" can completely rebuild your existing rudder. This is the largest prop repair company in the midwest. Props, rudders, struts, and shafts. Al

[cadunkle]

No one has commented on the replacement rudders performance vs factory. That is one concern I have when I do mine (likely over the winter). I don't want to lose maneuverability around the docks.

[supramariah#1]

Why don't you send your rudder in for repair? The OEM rudder is great handling especially for slow speed operation. "Henry Smith Repair" can completely rebuild your existing rudder. This is the largest prop repair company in the midwest. Props, rudders, struts, and shafts. Al

Thanks for the reference!

[supramariah#1]

Just had mine replaced last week. Too much play. If you shake it and it moves a good bit, then not a good sign. The shaft looked worn at bottom much like pics above. New dripless installed in 1.5 hours. Will have to make hole bigger in bottom of boat while maintaining 4 bolt position if going with new style. New one will not budge at all. Mine drives incredible. So much more responsive with wheel turn. Still behaves the same while backing around dock. Since I have been driving my boat for more than 20 years I could tell a huge difference between the two units, but in wheel feel only. New unit felt almost twice as heavy as older rudder as it is thicker. Shape is very different and I thought that make make a huge difference in reverse, but same 'ol inboard feeling. I can spin it at high speeds more easily. One upgrade I love and I don't why we didn't make the change sooner. Now, I just get to squirt a grease gun vs. never having to repack rope or tighten meticulously.

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx49/ngavdba/83beefae.jpg

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx49/ngavdba/1f7964f4.jpg

This is a great comparison. If the rudder is beyond repair I will be installing one of these new one size fits all general replacements.

How did you drill the hole bigger while keeping it centered with the 4 bolt pattern?

[sybrmike]

I also replaced my old packed rudder with an updated o-ring model. Granted, it was NOS assembly out of now defunct Gekko - but they're pretty standard and most mfg by Marine Hardware for alot of the OEM's. The hole O.D. for the rudder shaft was fine, but I had to move the mounting holes slightly outward. I only mention this because I've found that there were quite a few variances in mfg by Supra back in the day & just be prepared for some type of modification with any retrofit.

For me it was easier to break old 5200 loose on the rudder and strut with steady pressure rather than impact force. I also carefully cut the perimeter with a razor blade prior to prying. It might be possible to do without removing the tank on yours, but I can't imagine attempting this on my Salt with the tank in place.

[wotan2525]

It might be possible to do without removing the tank on yours, but I can't imagine attempting this on my Salt with the tank in place.

I replaced my steering cable with the tank in place and it was a huge mistake. There's no way in HELL I'd try to replace the rudder without pulling the tank.

[mapleleaf]

I replaced my steering cable with the tank in place and it was a huge mistake. There's no way in HELL I'd try to replace the rudder without pulling the tank.

I'll put my vote in on pull'in the tank, especially if its a Mariah...if a guy with a Salt is telling us it's needed, then........

[cadunkle]

I can't see doing on a Saltare without pulling the tank. I mean, technically it's possible, but it may be more aggravation than it's worth. Removing the little access panel behind the doghouse it's about all I can do to contort myself and crawl under the floor to reach the adjusting nuts for the rudder packing. I can see working this way taking more time than pulling the tank. Very limited mobility when you're under there, and you have to come half out to reposition your arms and such. If you're a bigger guy or have back issues, forget about it.

[supramariah#1]

Wow thanks guys. I actually just removed all the sections in the floor and greased er up. It removed tons of the slop that was in before. I havent taken it out yet but I will be this weekend. I will see how it goes and run all the gas out of the tank (or close) so if I do replace it I can take the tank out. I can get the grease in it but no way can I get my arms in there enough to remove it. I workout too much my arms are huuuggee! (lol kidding) I really cant tell if the rudder is bent or the bearing housing is messed up. Gotta take it apart. I will go down to my local boat shop to see what they can get me other than what SKIDIM has, plus i am looking for a better altitude get up and go prop. Anyhow, my basement also just flooded (seriously 4 ft of water) so I dont have time to fix it right away. I just greased it and trying it. It looks like it was never greased in years! lol I mean really!? GRRR. I put 6-7 pumps of grease in it. I don't understand why people even buy boats if they arnt gonna take care of them. Some people cant but then dont take them into a good shop. The boat just wastes away. This irritates a person who puts grease zirks on everything for longevity. (me)

HAHA to working under the dash. Mine Mariah is easy to work behind the dash. ONce you contort yourself around the seat and fit into the fort like area under the dash where your feet go. gettting out was quite a magic trick. :p

Good thing of the weekend. De-winterizing went super well. Sounds awesome. Everything is really dried out.

[riveredge]

I'll be replacing mine tonight with the same unit as ngavdba, I'll let you know how it goes. I am hoping not to have to drill out the hole any larger, but I have a template made up to guide the drill bit if I have to. Also installing an 18" extension tube on the zerk fitting, so I run that up near the rear seat or something, rather than crawling under there to grease it. With the new cable I put in last season, this thing should steer like new.

Marine Hardware says their new design is "self lubricating" with no grease fitting. I've heard that before... it's intriguing but I'd rather have the option to add grease if needed. Skidim still has the style with the grease fitting.

[riveredge]

So it turns out that Marine Hardware knows what they're talking about and even Skidim didn't know they had the newer style rudder with no grease fitting. SO bottom line, the new rudder in my '89 has no grease fitting. It fit in the existing holes with no problem, no drilling, and I even used the old inside backing plate.

Test drive: this is the best upgrade I have ever done to this boat, or any vehicle for that matter. This boat drives like a brand new ski boat. I have driven a huge variety of boats, and my 89 bravura now steers as well as any of them, it is absolutely fantastic. One finger steering at any speed, a little harder to the right (naturally) and not a single drop of water comes in through the rudder port. 100% worth the effort and money ($376 shipped from skidim) as long as you're not paying labor. And even then, honestly, this is such a difference that it would have been worth a lot more than $376.

Granted my rudder was in bad shape, but I highly recommend taking a long look at your rudder if you have easy steering at idle but hard steering at speed.

Happy Memorial Day!

[supramariah#1]

Update for me as well. After greasing and a very very little manipulation on the boat. it drives soo much better it is crazy. i can use one hand again. Not on finger but its better. it does turn harder to the right. i coudlnt easily do turn around for someone and now i can either direction. i will be lubing this rudder a few times a year. prolly replace it when it gets bad again with grease. i just extended it life a few more years. SWEET! really cant believe no one ever greased the darn thing. ugh!

Great news riveredge. Thanks for your update on the new rudder. I will be buying one of those in the future and now i know what to expect!

[NeilMcg]

I'm about to re-install my fixed rudder and I was wonderin: What keeps water from migrating up through the space between the post and housing? Is there a seal I need to worry about? Also, My trailer has a rear skag right at the rudder housing that's preventing me from installing it. Was thinking bottle jacks on the skag to lift the boat. Any thoughts?

[riveredge]

@supramariah - it sounds like your problem is 95% due to lubrication, and you're all set. I wouldn't rush to replace anything, maybe put in a remote zerk fitting so you don't have to crawl in there quite as much.

@neilmcg - lots of caulking, put a nice bead around the post on the outside, and around each bolt hole, then in each bolt hole. Use either 3M 4200 or 5200. 4200 is my choice, if the parts ever have to come off, 4200 won't take the gelcoat with it, and it will keep water out just as well. Jacking up the boat on the trailer could work, but how much room do you need? Lift the boat from the ground, not the trailer. If you are near a ramp, you could launch the boat and move it back on the trailer just a bit. You just wouldn't want to trailer very far... I'm spoiled with access to a forklift for this type of thing...

[NeilMcg]

If I put a bead on the post itself, won't that impede its motion as it cures?

[cadunkle]

I hope you don't mean on the actual rudder shaft. This is sealed on the newer style by the lip seals in the rudder housing, and by the rope seal/packing on the older style. If you got enough sealant far enough up on the shaft it could damage the seal and result in a leak.

[mapleleaf]

I'm guessing he thought it was a port and rudder replacement....requiring a good bead on the gelcoat around the rough opening of the port....

[NeilMcg]

Best way I can put it is if you look at the first page of my original thread, you'll see that the vertical rudder post bent outwards. I had it bent back, but it's still not perfect. I'm having a machinist still working on it, but I think I'll end up buying one from Skidim.

My question is: If my guy is able to get it straight, can I merely sent it back up through the housing and then connect the tiller arm without any concern of water seeping up through the space between the post and the cylinder (kind of the same way engine oil can travel up between the piston and cylinder wall?) The acual housing is 5200'd to death with silicone all around.

[mapleleaf]

Neil, Your OEM rudder sounds like the kind with a flax rope packing at the top of rudder port where it is set into the steering cable. If it wasn't you'd see grease zirks for lubrication... There should be a collar nut with rope packing in it from your disassembly, check the parts you took out. This nut will have a another nut that "sets" the tightness to your rudder arm. That's what stops the water from getting in. Don't have pics of mine, because I hit some rocks and am in the process of repairing it.
These boats are capable of powerful enough turns to bend the rudder, and thats why with age you're in this mess...
Pics would be helpful, but if you've ever redone the rope packing on your drive shaft, this isn't much different...

[mapleleaf]

Just checked your rebuild pics, that rudder is not the one I thought it was, wish I could help more, our rudder's are diff. only exp'd with mine!!!

[riveredge]

I'm guessing he thought it was a port and rudder replacement....requiring a good bead on the gelcoat around the rough opening of the port....

Yeah, that's what I was going for, cadunkle has it right about the different seal designs. The caulking just seals the port to the hole in the boat... I think we're all on the same page.

[NeilMcg]

Thanks guys for your input, but I must admit I can't visualize what your talking about. I think my best bet is to buy a whole new assembly. Remember the BOAT acronym..I really do appreciate your advice!!

[riveredge]

see attachment, the red is where you would most need beads of caulking, up against the outside of the boat. the shaft of the rudder goes inside of the assembly, as you can see, and its seals keep the water from entering the boat around the post of the rudder. The green is just my impression of bolts, going through the backing plate and down through the outside flange. Of course, the nuts go on the inside... anyway that should clear it up.

[NeilMcg]

Ok, It's starting to make sense now. Thanks for the pic!