Starting issues...no spark

[Ptownkid]

Brand new coil, brand new plugs...no spark. I've tried multiple cables directly off the coil and nothing.

What's next?

[wotan2525]

Are you sure you remembered to plug the coil back in? You need a multi-meter or test light to make sure your coil is getting +12v.

[Ptownkid]

Yup, it's getting 12...think i found the problem, the points, even when open, still have continuity, that's not going to work at all is it, haha.

Now, where the hell can I find new points...

[OUI]

You can get points at any auto parts store. But, switch to electronic -- it's the only way to go.

[Ptownkid]

Firstly...I went to 5 auto stores, and they all laughed when i asked for points, second, it's on a boat that I'm selling, so no conversion is going to happen. It looks like normal points are easy to find online, but marine ones are usually LH rotation, so far less common.

[OUI]

Give these guys a call.

http://www.skidim.com/default.asp

[Salty87]

nautiques still run pcm's. if you have a dealer nearby you should be able to pick up a tune up kit there (cap, rotor, points, condensor).

[mapleleaf]

Firstly...I went to 5 auto stores, and they all laughed when i asked for points, second, it's on a boat that I'm selling, so no conversion is going to happen. It looks like normal points are easy to find online, but marine ones are usually LH rotation, so far less common.

whats that say about selling????? I feel a pm coming up......

[haugy]

Yup, it's getting 12...think i found the problem, the points, even when open, still have continuity, that's not going to work at all is it, haha.

Now, where the hell can I find new points...

How did you figure out that you still have continuity? I've never been good with points.

What motor are you running?

[Ptownkid]

I set my meter to continuity test, and touched the arm of the point and the contact it touches when closed...if my understanding is correct, as soon as that no longer makes contact is when the coil voltage collapses and discharges. If the points are open and there is still continuity, then it can never make the coil discharge it's voltage...

Am i way off?

Maple...I have no idea what you are talking about... seriously, haha

[DAFF]

They are inside the disribitor. Pull the cap off and look inside. While the engine is turning over the arm of the points should move on and off the contact pad. Much like a over head cam and valve. When open no spark closed spark. If they are moving try using a small nail file to clean off the two surfaces.

[Ptownkid]

I thought it was the other way around...when the points open the coil discharges...

[Salty87]

you've got it ptown...when the points open, ground to the points is lost and the coil discharges.

great article btw, thanks for posting it.

[Ptownkid]

No worries man...I had basically no understanding of them about 24 hours ago, read that I now get it.

[haugy]

Crap, I'm in the same boat. I'm losing spark somewhere in the points. I've rechecked the gap, still nothing. I've got power coming into the cap, but it loses it there.

Seeing as how I suck at doing electrical work, I think I may have to call some professional help. It took me a while to figure out which setting just to check for 12v. :D

Uggggghhhhh, so close.

[rludtke]

Yup, the points have to open for the system to creat spark at the plugs. DAFF was hitting the nail on the head I think. Inspect the points to be sure they are opening. Whatch them with the cap removed while cranking the starter. Sometimes the points will weld togather, and they will not be able to open. The result: no spark. New points will fix this. SkiDim is a good source. So is NAPA. The points for a 87 Ford F-150 with a 351 should do it.

[haugy]

I got new points for mine. But I don't know what the correct gap is the 454, first time with this engine. I'm familiar with the general process, it's using the voltmeter and figuring it all out.

[Salty87]

way wrong...i had spark plug gap

[Ptownkid]

According to the mallory app guide...it's 0.018"

I tried NAPA, and they had it...and wanting $30, I practically punched the guy. Car quest was a little better at $19, but they are $8 online here in canada.

[haugy]

I found out, according to Skidim, the correct gap for a 454 is .020, with a a dwell of 24-49 degrees. I'll try it again. ugh.

[Ptownkid]

http://www.centuryperformance.com/setting-breaker-points-spg-90.html

[Salty87]

you guys have dwell meters? i've never had one or used one. any suggestions?

[oward1202]

So I have been reading everyone's input on this trying to figure if the answer to my question was already posted but it seems not. I have a 1985 Comp with the 351 in it, which already has electronic ignition. The engine will start and run great everytime I turn the key when it is cold. But, when I run it and get it hot and then shut it off, it will not start until it cools down for a while. It will turn over like it should but will not start. I have replaced the impeller and thermostat because I figured it was vapor locking. This did decrease the under hood temperatures but has not helped the problem at all. The problem started last year and has progressively gotten worse. Last time out it did the same thing and I took some starting fluid with me to spray into the carb when the problem occured. STILL would not start!! That pretty much tells me that it may not be a fuel issue but maybe an ignition issue.

So yesterday I replaced the ignition coil because it was pretty old and I thought that it could be getting hot and not working properly. I have only had the boat for a year so I'm not sure how long it has been on.

The boat will eventually start once it cools down so I'm not terrified that we will be stranded but it is extremely annoying and embarrassing because it always seems to happen when other people are around, like after cruising back to the marina and then through the no wake zone. Of course when I get back in the boat to load it on the trailer it won't start. It's not a good feeling when everyone around compliments you on how great the boat looks and then you have to jump in the water and load it by hand.

What are everyone's thoughts? Thanks in advance!

[Salty87]

my initial thought is that your battery cables and/or connections need some help. i'd start by checking and cleaning the ground wire where it connects to your engine. if your battery cables are original and brittle, you might replace them. they don't last forever. bend one of them and if you hear/feel cracking and popping, it's time. they rust and deteriorate inside the plastic sheath. over time they lose efficiency and the rot reduces their ability to conduct current. a hot engine has higher compression and needs a little more oomph.

you could test this by bringing some jumper cables. get the engine temp up and when she won't start, move the battery near the starter. hook up your cable directly to the starter instead of the battery cables. if she fires right up, you've got your answer.

now what do you know about dwell meters? lol

[Ptownkid]

All i know about dwell meters is that you can find them pretty cheap...

[oward1202]

Thanks Salty, the wires are new and the engine turns over plenty strong and will turn over until the battery dies but won't start. Hopefully I can get it out today if the weather allows me to. All I can do at this point is take it out see if it occurs after replacing the ignition coil. I thought it was a fuel issue with vapor locking but sprayed starting fluid and still would not start. So it must not be getting fire when it is hot because if I had fuel and fire then it would go "Boom"!

[Jetlink]

So it must not be getting fire when it is hot because if I had fuel and fire then it would go "Boom"!

Unless you don't have the correct ratio air/fuel mixture. If you do get it out on the water today and run into this issue, pull the flame arrestor off and look in the top of the carb to make sure you don't have any pooled fuel sitting in there. Too much fuel and not enough air plus spark will not equal boom.

[oward1202]

Thanks Ben, I will check that as well if it happens again today. I think I checked that last year also but I will make sure to check it again today. That's a good point.

[Ptownkid]

Forgot to mention...replaced the points and set the gap and the 351 in my boat for sale roared to life and sounds GREAT!!!

[DAFF]

Been many years since I set up any points. If you have them in your boat it is a good idea to keep an emery board nail file on hand. They fit nicely in between the points keeping them clean and working good.

Typicially coils never go bad. If they do it will be spuratic and the engine will fall flat on its face from time to time. A hot no start is 95% of the time fuel related... Too much!!! Make sure the choke is not sticking on when the engine gets hot. This will lead to bad fuel milage and hard resarts. Check the timing and points and make sure the fuel pump is 100%. Pull a plug or two. Look at the colour black means way too much fuel.

[duckseatfree]

don't know if this will help...found it on a ford techboard...

Hot starting problems are usually fuel related. When a hot engine is shut off, the temperature of the engine and everything on it continues to rise for awhile as the engine undergoes a period of "heat soak." This can cause fuel to boil inside the carburetor bowl, fuel lines and fuel filter. When you attempt to restart the engine, "vapor lock" obstructs the flow of fuel and the engine doesn't want to start.

This is much less of a problem on fuel injected engines because the fuel is usually under much higher pressure inside the injectors and fuel line. Even so, a fuel line routed near an exhaust manifold or a fuel rail that's exposed to a lot of heat may still suffer the same kind of problems.

Heat soak problems such as these can sometimes be cured by wrapping insulation around affected fuel lines, and/or installing an insulating spacer or heat shield under the carburetor.

A Seasonal Problem
Hard hard starting tends to be a seasonal problem, but may be worse in the early months of spring when refiners are switching fuel blends. Gasoline refiners produce fuel with a slightly lower volatility rating (called "Reed vapor pressure") during hot summer months because lower volatility fuel is less likely to boil and cause hot starting problems. During the winter, they switch to a higher volatility fuel because it makes cold starting easier. But if you still have "winter" grade fuel in your tank when warm spring weather arrives, you may experience some hot starting problems. The problem will go away, however, as soon as the refiners in your area switch to their summer grade fuel.

Other Causes
Hot starting problems can also be caused by cooling problems that allow your engine to run too hot (the pistons swell up and may scuff the cylinder walls), or excessive resistance in the starter motor that causes the engine to crank slowly. A starter "amp draw" test can be used to check the condition of your starter. Also, many starters have small "heat shields" to protect them from heat radiating from nearby exhaust pipes or manifolds. If the shield is missing, the starter may get too hot and bind up

[rludtke]

So I have been reading everyone's input on this trying to figure if the answer to my question was already posted but it seems not. I have a 1985 Comp with the 351 in it, which already has electronic ignition. The engine will start and run great everytime I turn the key when it is cold. But, when I run it and get it hot and then shut it off, it will not start until it cools down for a while. It will turn over like it should but will not start. I have replaced the impeller and thermostat because I figured it was vapor locking. This did decrease the under hood temperatures but has not helped the problem at all. The problem started last year and has progressively gotten worse. Last time out it did the same thing and I took some starting fluid with me to spray into the carb when the problem occured. STILL would not start!! That pretty much tells me that it may not be a fuel issue but maybe an ignition issue.

So yesterday I replaced the ignition coil because it was pretty old and I thought that it could be getting hot and not working properly. I have only had the boat for a year so I'm not sure how long it has been on.

The boat will eventually start once it cools down so I'm not terrified that we will be stranded but it is extremely annoying and embarrassing because it always seems to happen when other people are around, like after cruising back to the marina and then through the no wake zone. Of course when I get back in the boat to load it on the trailer it won't start. It's not a good feeling when everyone around compliments you on how great the boat looks and then you have to jump in the water and load it by hand.

What are everyone's thoughts? Thanks in advance!

Owen, I had hot start issues in my boat for a while due to vapor locking. It turned out that my exhaust risers where running hotter than they normally should, heating the engine compartment to the point that the fuel would boil in the float chambers after shut down. The immediate solution is to crank and start the engine with the throttle wide open (to allow cold fuel to enter the system). When the engine starts, quickly return throttle to idle.

The solution was to replace my impellor. The engine temp gauge read fine, but my exhaust risers were getting to hot to touch, wich is way to hot. The new impellor restored the exhaust cooling to more more normal temperaturs, and the under hood temps dropped way down, and my vapor lock problem went away.

[DAFF]

Just curious, did the hot exhaust risers cause dieseling at shut down???

[oward1202]

Thanks Rick, that's exactly what I thought was going on with mine. My exhaust risers also were hot to the touch so I replaced the impeller as well and it did cool those off but the problem remains. I spoke to a mechanic who has done some work on my boat and he seems to think that if that didn't fix it then it may be in the ignition system. I put a new ignition coil on it last week but have not been able to run it yet. It's possible that could have fixed the problem. Hopefully I will be able to put it on the water in the next few days. Seems like it rains on my days off. If thats not it I will move on to the rotor and distributor cap. Just replacing one thing at a time from cheapest on up at this point. I will keep everyone posted. Thanks for all the input.

[rludtke]

Thanks Rick, that's exactly what I thought was going on with mine. My exhaust risers also were hot to the touch so I replaced the impeller as well and it did cool those off but the problem remains. I spoke to a mechanic who has done some work on my boat and he seems to think that if that didn't fix it then it may be in the ignition system. I put a new ignition coil on it last week but have not been able to run it yet. It's possible that could have fixed the problem. Hopefully I will be able to put it on the water in the next few days. Seems like it rains on my days off. If thats not it I will move on to the rotor and distributor cap. Just replacing one thing at a time from cheapest on up at this point. I will keep everyone posted. Thanks for all the input.

Makes sence. The high temps coud be breaking down the week coil. Cooling down the exhaust, and replacing the coil could improve things. It's worth a shot!

[Trailfoot]

HELP!!!!!!

I too have an 85 ts6m comp that is having some electrical issues on a 351 Windsor. I have replaced the cap, rotor, spark plug wires, coil, points (NEED INFO ON GAP) and the condensor.

Currently I do not have any spark to any plugs or points. Battery is good and the engine is turning over.

Need assistance with gap for points
Need assistance with geting spark

Is the ballace resister in the back of the motor part of the ignition system???? Could that be the issue?

[Trailfoot]

Turns out the Dwell needed to be set on the points...

[Chunnetter]

Seeing as how I suck at doing electrical work, I think I may have to call some professional help. It took me a while to figure out which setting just to check for 12v.

[oward1202]

Well I know it's been a little while since my last update on the starting issue but I haven't had anything to update because we have not been on the water due to crazy work schedules. We did finally get out yesterday and the boat ran great as usual from the dock. Once we ran across the lake and pulled into party cove and got tied up I shut the boat off. I then waited a minute and turned the key..... And the thing fired right back up!!!!! You can probably understand my feeling when we have been fighting with this issue for over a year. It makes me feel pretty silly that it was something as simple as the ignition coil but a great feeling to have it working properly. Thank you all for the help and advice. Happy boating!