Saltare's carb

[haugy]

The saltares run a standard Holley 4160 600cfm carb correct?

I am going to have to replace mine. I rebuilt it and it's still overloading fuel like a free flowing sink.

I'm going to try one more time to adjust the floats on the secondary bowl to prevent the overflowing. After that, if it doesn't work I'm going to have to get another carb.

So I just wanted to make sure on my carb. I looks like a 4160, just checking.

[rludtke]

The PCM 351 uses the Holley 4160 carb, part # 0-80319-1 http://holley.com/0-80319-1.asp.

The correct rebuild kit is part # 703-47 http://holley.com/703-47.asp.

Don't give up, there is simply something holding either the primary or secondary (or both) float valves open. Look in the throttle bore to see which bores are flooding. The front (primary) or the back (secondary), and pull that bowl off. Remove the float to take out the needle. Examine it for debri or scoring on or around the tip. remove the seat and examine it for debri. Hold the float up to your ear and shake it. Listen for fluid inside. If you here fluid sloshing, replace it with new, as the float has a leak and is the cause of your problem. Reassemble the needle valve parts.

Follow the "GENERAL GUIDELINES FOR ADJUSTING NITROPHYL FLOATS" http://holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/Adjusting%20Your%20Carburetor.pdf and then reassemble the float bowls, and test run the engine.

Make sure you have a good fuel filter (and not just the water separator). I recomend everyone install an inline fuel filter as close to the carb as possible. I had multiple flooding issues due to fuel line particles blocking open my needle valves, that was very frustrating to solve. I would overhaul the carb over and over and over again, but only temprorarily solve the problem. It would run fine in the driveway, then suck at the lake. The filter fixed it. It only takes the tiniest of particles to prevent the float valve (needle) from closing. If the float valve does not close all the way, flooding is the result.

There are only three that can cause a flooding carburator: 1) The float leaks and has sunk, 2) Debri is preventing the float valve form closing, 3) The float adjustment is incorrect.

Good luck,

[cadunkle]

I have no idea what they came with originally but a 600 CFM is quite small for a 454. Granted I did run one on my tow pig's 460 for a while and it did alright, but after changing that to a 750 double pumper it runs much better with better throttle response and more power all around. I run a 800 CFM 4150 double pumper on my Saltare (Holley 9022).

Likely you just have some junk in your fuel system getting to the needles. If cleaning the needles/seat or replacing them (rebuild) and adjusting the floats doesn't fix it you can buy my old carb, which I foolishly replaced since I "didn't have the time to mess with the boat", or time to tune it since I don't get on the water that often, and just wanted it to work. It's a rebuilt 9022 800 CFM double pumper with a new billet base plate (old was worn). Metering blocks are not original to the carb but should be fine (worked fine on my 454). Turns out my random goofy idle was just a vacuum leak at the quadrajet to square bore adaptor on my intake. Oops!! Oh well, I have a new 9022 on the boat and a freshly rebuilt one sitting here doing nothing. As much as I'd like you to buy my carb though, I'd say rebuild yours and you'll likely be fine for $50 or so.

[haugy]

Nevermind everyone. I got it fixed, I pulled off the bowls and found the problem. I was utilizing a friend to help rebuild the carb to help with speed. He forgot to put the c-clips on the bowl arms to keep the bowls in place.

I used a c-clip I found in my kit, and ghetto rigged the other with a cotter pin just for today. Got it fired up, and running fine!!!!

No new carb for me. :D

[csuggs]

Wow guys. That sounds like some really good information. I just came back from a weekend outing and fought a flooded carb each of the last 3 days. I recently had my carb rebuilt with the Holley kit, and because I was having some issues with hesitation we replaced the squirter with a #32 (#25 came out of it). That took care of the hesitation, but flooding still persists. Here's the scenario . . .

The boat always runs good in the driveway on fake lake.
It always starts easily when cold, when we first get to the river and put in.
It will restart easily within a few minutes of shutdown.
It nearly always will flood when I let it sit after running. Like if we take a break and just sit on the boat or swim. The primary bowls are flooding I believe. And every time it floods my plugs get wet and the motor runs like it's "missing". If I let it sit overnight and let the plugs dry, it will repeat the next morning - meaning it starts and runs great until we sit for a while and it floods.
Yesterday after I got it running again we drove back to the ramp and there was a very long distance we had to go with no wake. The motor stalled just before we got it to the dock. I got it started after about 10 minutes and then it stalled again at the dock. Frustrating and embarrasing. :mad:
One thing I've also noticed is that when we sit for a while the motor gets really hot -
FYI - I have an inline fuel filter installed.

Like you Haugy, I'm ready to just purchase a new one from skidim, but that's $500. If that fixes it, it's worth it though.

[csuggs]

Haugy, was the flooding coming from the back bowl? Mine is coming from the front bowl and I adjusted that float down some.

[haugy]

Csuggs, since my floats were out of wack, yes it was allowing the bowls to load up with fuel and overflow into the carb.

Have you checked your idle mix set screws? The two screws on the metering block(attached to the primary bowl).

A good way to make sure they are set, and then to dial them in is to turn them all the way in, not tight, but just to where the screw stops. Then turn them out 1 and a half turns (1.5). Both screws need to be set at the same level. While you're doing that though, pull the front bowls.

Take the primary bowl, and turn it upside down. Does the float hit the top? Or does it shop short? It should stop short. I set mine to where it will stop almost parallel with the bowl. If it's hitting the top of the bowl, there's your best cause right there. That means it's hitting the bowl instead of shutting off the fuel flow.

Have you done a rebuild kit before? It may need a new power valve, or needles.

[rludtke]

Wow guys. That sounds like some really good information. I just came back from a weekend outing and fought a flooded carb each of the last 3 days. I recently had my carb rebuilt with the Holley kit, and because I was having some issues with hesitation we replaced the squirter with a #32 (#25 came out of it). That took care of the hesitation, but flooding still persists. Here's the scenario . . .

The boat always runs good in the driveway on fake lake.
It always starts easily when cold, when we first get to the river and put in.
It will restart easily within a few minutes of shutdown.
It nearly always will flood when I let it sit after running. Like if we take a break and just sit on the boat or swim. The primary bowls are flooding I believe. And every time it floods my plugs get wet and the motor runs like it's "missing". If I let it sit overnight and let the plugs dry, it will repeat the next morning - meaning it starts and runs great until we sit for a while and it floods.
Yesterday after I got it running again we drove back to the ramp and there was a very long distance we had to go with no wake. The motor stalled just before we got it to the dock. I got it started after about 10 minutes and then it stalled again at the dock. Frustrating and embarrasing. :mad:
One thing I've also noticed is that when we sit for a while the motor gets really hot -
FYI - I have an inline fuel filter installed.

Like you Haugy, I'm ready to just purchase a new one from skidim, but that's $500. If that fixes it, it's worth it though.

If you see fuel dripping into the throttle bore from the spray bars or out of the J tube vent when the engine is off or idling, your float valve is not closing properly, and the carb is flooding. There can only be 3 reasons for this: 1) The float valve is leaking due to wear and needs to be replaced. Or 2) The float valve is not closing due to misadjustment of the float level, sunk float, or debri in the way of the needle. Or 3) Incorrectly assembled float/needle/seat assembly as haugy just discovered.

My recomended cure:
1) Baseline the float level adjustement by following the linked Holley adjustment procedure, to make sure your float level is spec.
2) Inspect the inside of the float bowl for debri. Crud can get in there, and if it does, your float valve doesn't stand a chance. Clean out the debri, and try to determin the source. The in-line filter (if you have one) or the inlet screen are the only defense from crud. The inlet screen can fail, and so can the filter. My screen once looked good, but actually was loose, and would hnige out of the way under operation, letting the crud in.
3) Determine that the needle and seat are free of debri. Inspect the needle and seat for debri and/or wear. Any scratches or wear marks on the viton (black) tip of the needle is reason to discard it. Same goes with the seat. Remove the seat to inspect. Blow through it. I have seen these packed with crud before.
4) Test the float to ensure it hasn't leaked and "sunk" by listening for fluid inside (replace if you hear fluid).

Don't be afraid to overhaul your carb- it is a very simple and intuitive process. Just re-assemble oposite of how you disassemble. The hardest part is not losing the tiny circlip that holds the float onto the shaft (don't ask me how I know).

You mentioned that your motor gets hot. Your raw water pump impellor is probably not operating at 100% anymore. This could be contributing the the starting/idleing problems. I think you should consider replacing your impellor too. Your temps will probably drop way down, and this may help some of your carb issues. It will also help overall engine performance. this is also a simple job if you haven't done it before. Parts are cheap, less than $50 at Skidim http://www.skidim.com/

[csuggs]

Could high fuel pressure also be a cause of flooding?

[haugy]

Not normally. There are valves and checks to prevent that. It would have to be REALLY high. Are you running a mechanical or electric fuel pump? Factory is mechanical.

[csuggs]

Not normally. There are valves and checks to prevent that. It would have to be REALLY high. Are you running a mechanical or electric fuel pump? Factory is mechanical.

Mechanical.

I just talked to Richard at skidim and he told me how they adjust the floats so I'm going to double-check that before I do anything. I personally think my fuel pump is ok but the carb guy is pointing to everything but the carb. And he insists that I "need" one of those wedges to level-up the carb, and I keep telling him that it has run fine without one for 25 years.

[smoothfootn]

I have a 91 Conbrio and am having trouble w/ fuel dribbling out of the primary's. I do not have the externally adjustable floats. I started out w/ the recommended setting of horizontal when inverted. This dribble much gas. Because the carb is @ such an angle It makes the front bowl artificially more full thus I have it adjusted so that the needle shuts almost immedietly. I am still getting some fuel dripping. I was told by a friend that there should be a wedge plate @ the base to level up the carb. I just bought the boat this year and it did not have one, any ideas? I feel like I have the float as lean as possible and am still getting some dribbling. Any more insight would be great. Thanks for the great input on this topic above.

[cadunkle]

I guess they didn't come with a wedge but if you're having a hard time setting the float level to not be too high I would get one to even it out. These carbs were made to sit level, and the incline only gets worse when you're running on plane. Do the factory carbs not have externally adjustable floats? If so I'd swap some fuel bowls on that do have them as it makes life so much easier.

[haugy]

Some did, some didn't. My Mariah had them, the Saltare does not.

These carbs can handle angles just fine, it's the setting that needs to be dialed. I ran my boat carb on my jeep for a year before swapping to a Truck Avenger. And I had my jeep pointing up, down, and sideways. It only died on the steep stuff.

I've never seen someone have to use a wedge on their boat. Only if they were going for a venturi spacer. Also don't forget the idle mix screws on the side of the metering block.

[dshaff24]

Since everybody else is having an issue.. Here is mine

IF I let it idle for say 10 minutes..AFTER it was running great! Stop go stop go.. No problems.. But AFTER you stop and idle while changing Gear/rider's.. Then you bump it into gear and it dies! If you bump it into gear and open it up a little more then idle it will go and continue to run perfect but you just can not put it in gear after idleing for 6+ minutes~

[rludtke]

I did install a 12 degree wedge on my boat. I was trying to solve cronic flooding of the secondaries. The problem turned out to be a damaged inlet screen allowing impurities to pass. The screen looked ok when inspected, but the screen was not fully secure, and would deflect open under fuel flow. Removing the debri from the carb, and installing an in-line filter to prevent more fuel debri from entering the carb solved the problem. IMy wedge is still mounted, but I don't think it is required for normal operations as so many inboard towboats are operating out there without them. The wedge could be helpful for those who drive around with the bow way up in the air to make a wake for surfing.

But I also think that Holley's float level adjustment procedures assume a level carb installation. Our boats engines have a dramatic aft inclination when at rest on the water, and the angle gets worse under acceleration. So I set the float level according to Holley's instructions, and then test run on the water with tools. If I get a stumble under acceleration, then I adjust the float linkage to slightly increase the float level. Usually it is the secondary that needs this slight tweek. I do it right on the water. Carry an old water bottle to catch the draining fuel out of one of the lower float bowl bolt holes and a roll of paper towels to capture what is missed.

High fuel pressure is not likely the reason because the carburator float chambers are vented. The fuel downstream of the float valve (and in the float bowl) is at atmosheric pressure- it is not pressurized. Extremely high fuel system pressure might overpower the needle valve, but you probably would not see just fuel dripping out of the atomizers, you would see fuel running out of the J tube vents. The fuel pumps for coarburator engines are designed to produce high flow rates, not high pressure.

If you carburator is flooding after the level has been set according to the Holley instructions (and it has been correctly assembled), your needle is either:
1) Being held open by debri
or
2) It is leaking past the needle valve because of damage to the tip of the needle or seat.

I would focus on addressing these two potential root causes. If you have recently overhauled your carb, and the needle and seat are new, then foriegn debri is all that could be left. Carburators can not tolerate any foriegn particles in the fuel. The tiniest of object will cause problems.

My recomendation is the result of chasing an intermittant flooding problem over the course of three seasons. In my case it was the damaged inlet screen. I inspected that screen every stinking time I took my carb apart, but couldn't see the damage as it appeared good. I finally pushed on the screen accidently, and noticed it was loose. I kept finding particles trapped in the needle valve. but couldn't understand where they were coming from. Sometimes the one singular particle would be found resting near the on the inlet side of the needle valve assembly. My theroy is that under fuel flow, the partical would flow into the needle/seat assembly and hold the needle open and cause flooding). but after shut down, it would float up and out of the needle/seat assembly restoring the function to normal. Upon draining and dissasembling the float bowl, there would be this one tiny singular piece of something lying next to the seat.

I have been problem free ever since the begginning of last season when I added the in-line fuel filter.

[csuggs]

I feel like I have "hijacked" Haugy's thread so I'm starting another . . .

"Holley 4160 Issues"