about to be a owner of a supra...that needs help

[bens250ex]

so i am about to finalize a deal on a 1985 supra. It has the 351 in it. Well i thought i was getting a killer deal till i got to see the boat in person. Yea the outside is in good shape motor is in fair shape runs fair needs a tune up for sure. It is in need of something to fix the slop in the steering i dont know if it needs a new cable or if it can be tightened?

next is the big prob.....it needs stringers. I looked around at some post about this and it seems that i might be able to take this on. I do not want to split the hull i would like to just pull the floor. I am going to need some guidance on this from people who have done this. I have never done this nor messed with glass. My g/f dad rebuilds chris crafts and if really good with wood so im going to lean on him for laying in the stringers and getting this thing lined up.
Im really worried about getting the thing lined up correctly, i saw where everyone said to take measurements and so forth but is there any set info on where it needs to be? i really just need a full run down on tools i need, materials, best wood, what to look for and what to do to get the stringers correct. I plan on doing one stringer at a time so i can keep a little more structure support on the boat. In a way im excited to do it but it is a big task forsure. I know i havent filled out any of my info but i am from right outside of memphis in olive branch, ms. I will post up some pics of the boat. the rot is right at the transmission mounts and where the exhaust goes.

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/new009.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/new010.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/new017.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/new018.jpg

[bens250ex]

The bad this is the worst side of the stringer at the trans
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/new012.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/new013.jpg

The opposite side
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/new011.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/new014.jpg

[jsandy]

how much are you getting it for? cause there are alot of more solid boats than that out there

[wotan2525]

Unless you can stomach a year of your time and $3000 - $5000 worth of materials.... run!

[bens250ex]

it will be turnin into a winter project forsure. i gave $2800 for it. i ran it today in the ake to verify trans and engine worked properly...i pulled some stuff out this afternoon and found my problem to the loose steering.....stringer rot would be the culprit. has anyone ever used somethin else besides wood? seems as though it would make it better for the long haul. im in the process of trying to decide on if i should just pull the cap. any insight on this would be great.

[duckseatfree]

I would do a search for Oldman's rebuild. He didn't remove the top...just ripped out the floor and did stringer repairs on the easily accessible ones. He did a great job too

[csuggs]

If your stringers are as bad as you say and from the pics, you should pull the cap. It sounds like a lot of extra work but it will make the stringer job easier and allow for a more complete restoration. Most of the guys here have done the work themselves, but it's not a bad deal to have it done by a professional. Where are you located? There may be a place to have it done nearby.

[bdumas35]

Check this out for a great Comp full rebuild.

https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?t=2855&highlight=rickr

Here are some of the tools that were used for the demo on my project. The most used was the Sawzall with the Ax Blade.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w147/bdumas35/IMGP0085.jpg

You did the right thing coming to this forum. Lots of good folks and info here.

You can do it! But you can't be skeered.

[bens250ex]

after i pilled engine over and the rear floor i came to conclusion the cap has got to go and everything will need replaced.. does the floor stay in the hull or come out with the cap? what about up front what comes needs to be done to pull the cap? what are the best ways to store/lift the cap and what bracing do i need on the hull? im going to need some guidance but i cant turn back now lol it should be ionteresting. im going to take some more stuff out today and start getting measurements. what points should i measure from?

[bdumas35]

You will pull the rub rail and drill out the rivets. Remove the screws at the bottom of the top cap.

You're gonna need a way to hoist the cap and engine. I built an a frame and bought a cheap harbor freight hoist.

The floor stays. It's glassed to the hull. I cut the floor out with a circular saw running around the edges it left about a two inch lip that was useful for future reference.

[bens250ex]

rickr did a hell of a job on his build. im going to attempt something sim to his. this is going to be some nasty work but will be glad to know what i have under my feet on the water

[wotan2525]

I would do a search for Oldman's rebuild. He didn't remove the top...just ripped out the floor and did stringer repairs on the easily accessible ones. He did a great job too

I also didn't remove the cap. But I did it before I knew about this forum and if I ever (god forbid) have to do it again, I'll pull the cap. I think it would have been MUCH easier and resulted in a better restoration then the one I did.

[bens250ex]

You will pull the rub rail and drill out the rivets. Remove the screws at the bottom of the top cap.

You're gonna need a way to hoist the cap and engine. I built an a frame and bought a cheap harbor freight hoist.

The floor stays. It's glassed to the hull. I cut the floor out with a circular saw running around the edges it left about a two inch lip that was useful for future reference.



is there a way to tell if the cap has been off before? when you put the cap back on do you use the same holes from the old rivets?

[bens250ex]

im located by memphis,tn

[bdumas35]

The old holes on mine lined up fine but I drilled new ones. The old holes were a little oversized from the drill out process.

It'll be a happy day when you get to that point.:D

[bens250ex]

yea you got that right! but the reason i am curious is b/c of what i found today. The cap has been removed before and i saw some spots where the old rivets went. So is this going to be a problem or should i still be good?

I also found out some other info that plays a big role..The cap has been off and the outer stringers have been replaced while adding a new floor and carpet. I CAN NOT believe they did not also change the main stringers i am dumb found at this!

They did a chity job non the less and prob is better that they left the main ones alone. They did not even surround the outers in full fiberglass. I guess the only high side to this situation is it looks like the foam has been taken out and i will not have to mess with it. Should i add foam or not? It will be almost two weeks before i get back home but i plan on the motor coming out and start drilling rivets and such to get the cap off. Im going to try and get this done within a reasonable time. There will be a couple of us working on it so we should be able to cover some ground.

i took some pics of stuff today i will post up later. does anyone have there measurements still? i was curious as to what ya'lls came out to be from stringer to stringer?

[Salty87]

you're in good hands with bdumas, you should check his rebuild thread if you haven't already.

re: stringer measurements...don't trust any from a different boat. will be kinda hard for you to tell since a previous owner has been in there but the last thing the supra factory was way back when....consistent. they seem to have made it up as they went.

okie's thread is real good for discussions of fiberglassing techniques. you need to follow some other fairly simple things like don't let wood touch the hull when you glass it in. you've got help though, right?

there's lots of room for improvement in the stringer design.

[bens250ex]

you're in good hands with bdumas, you should check his rebuild thread if you haven't already.

re: stringer measurements...don't trust any from a different boat. will be kinda hard for you to tell since a previous owner has been in there but the last thing the supra factory was way back when....consistent. they seem to have made it up as they went.

okie's thread is real good for discussions of fiberglassing techniques. you need to follow some other fairly simple things like don't let wood touch the hull when you glass it in. you've got help though, right?

there's lots of room for improvement in the stringer design.


thats what i was wondering was how to improve stringer design. I know i need to port it so water will flow out better but when you port hols in the striger what can you do to seal off the wood so it will keep from starting to rot again?

My dad mentioned putting either pvc or small metal pipes in and then fiberglass them in so it will help keep water from soakin in. Is this an idea or is it pointless?

I am going to lay some fiberglass on the cap where i have a couple of cracks where the............ previous owner decided to pull tubers from the ring in the back and well it cracked it bad. So this is going to be my first attemp at fiberglass and i can get the feel for it.

Yea i have help couldn't do it without someone. I would prob jump off a cliff if i had to do it by myself i just dont have this kind of exsperience. Will to learn yes but i also like to do things correct and over and beyond if possible. My main support will come from my g/f dad. He restores chris crafts and is awesome with wood. He has also messed with fiberglass. So hopefully my will and his knowledge will form somethin that floats :p

[bens250ex]

what is the best wood to use for the stringers?

[bens250ex]

ok so i have been searching and searching trying to figure out what supplies i will need for the fiberglass. Its a lil confusing reading it all. Is there a plan and simple run down on what stuff to get and how much i roughly need? i have heard west system mentioned and uscomposites. I just want something that will be strong, and something not so difficult to work with since it will be a learning curve as i go. Im not sure of what cloth to use either?

I also saw that the stringers can't be directly on the hull. (i thought they laid on it) I couldnt find to much info on how much it should sit up off the floor and what can fill the gap and so forth. I guess im missing how the stringers actually attach to hull? this is crucial so i need some insight on what to do here.

But anyways what way should i go with the glass? I would like to use epoxy it seems everyone says its stronger? But im lost even after reading everything :confused:

If i could figure out what to use i would like to order some and get familiar with how it is going to act.

[rludtke]

I'll preference this responce with this disclamer: I have never accomplished this stringer repair (yet). But I do have composite fabrication experience, and I think a lot about how I will do it when the time comes.

You are probably better off that a previous owner did not replace the main stringers, as now you have the factory installation to duplicate to provide the correct location. Based upon your description, the previous repairs may not be very trustworthy.

Remove the cap, and then sawzall the perimeter of the floors away from the hull, and remove the floors. Leave a small amount of the floor attach laminants (1/4" or less) for future reference, as this minus the thicknes of floor represents the top of the stringer. Remove all of the foam (I would strongly consider not replacing it). Then assess the wood structure. The primary stringers can be located with taught string lines set to reference either a indb or outbd upper corner. Use the original stringers to find the stringline location. You could do this by locating screw hooks or simular into the correct locations of the hull, to allow you to pull the string taught right at the upper indb or outbd corner of the original stringer. The string will not need to be there all of the time, but it will need to be there when you are trimming the new lumber to fit, and when you bond and laminate the new lumber in place. Of course you could do the string trick with all of the other pieces of lumber, but I dare say that none of the other peices will be nearly as critical in location as the main stringers because the engine mounts to them. Cut out the wood components at or near the hull with the sawzall (take pictures of the structure for reference first).

The hull will need substatial grinding to prepare the surfaces for new parts.

Marine grade plywood could be cut and laminated into the main stringers, but also fir or spruce would be good structural materials. Remember the strength will come from the laminants as much as it will come from the stringer material. The wood should be held off of the hull laminants by about 1/4-3/8". I don't think that beveling the bottom of the stringer edges to better match the conforms of the hull are truly necisary, rather the mixture of cabosil/millfiber resin goop will conform adequatley. Plan to use premaid shims to consistantly hold the stringers away from the hull when fitting the parts. Mark the shim location (or hot glue to the hull) so that they remain constant. Then when attaching the stringers, bond them to the hull with a 50/50 cabosil/millfiber and resin goop mixture, by building up a bed of the mixture all along the faying surface where the stringer will go (leaving gaps in the mixture around your shims). Squish the stringer into place until it rests agains your shims, and temporarily secure the stringer into place (hot glue and pre-cut wood blocks). Clean up the squeeze-out, and apply a ~1/2" fillet radius to either side of the stringer. When the resin cures, remove the shims, and fill the voids with more cabosil/millfiber mixture, and treat with a fillet like the rest of the stringer. Once cured, the stringer is bonded in place. Fit and install the remaining parts in the same manner, then laminate all surfaces of the wood and laminate to the hull.

The wood parts could also be pre-laminated. Once trimmed to the final shapes, they could come out of the boat to the work bench to allow you to coat and lamiante them on all sides (except the hull side) with one or two layers of fiberglass. Then install as described above.

Be sure to design drainage holes into your parts to ensure that all water can drain. Also, vent holes or gaps on the upper sides of the parts (against the bottom of the floor) will help the moisture dry. I would not leave any exposed wood. One way to do this is to cut your drain holes (notches actually) larger than required, then coat the exposed wood on the inner surfaces of the notch with a cabosil mixture. This is easier than trying to laminate fabric cloth in there.

I personally think that the boat will drain and dry better if the foam is not replaced.

The floor sheets should also be pre-laminated on both sides after being trimmed to fit. They should be bonded on a bed of cabosil/mill fiber placed upon the stringers prior to assembly. Screw the floor down to the stringers with corrosion restant metal countersunk screws, and laminate the perimeter. Laminate fabric circle patches over the screw heads to fully seal the screw holes. If foam is not used, the sheet material of the floor might need to be increased in thickness to reduce flexing between structure. This dimension will need to be considered when trimming the stringers (the reference string may need to be adjusted downward slightly to compensate).

I have also considered making the floor removable by bonding/laminating composite angles to the stringers to allow nutplates to be attached. Then corrosponding holes could be placed into the floor to allow countersunk screws to capture the floors segments in place.

These are my thoughts, take them with a grain of salt. Perhaps those with first hand expereince will chime in with adjustments.

Hit us with more questions, this BB will be very helpful. Keep carful notes and take pictures. If you can find someone in your area with composite experience to help show you the tools, processes, and common materials used in composite construction, you will end up miles ahead, as this is a game of organization and preparedness. Once you mix resin, you have to be prepared to go until it's done. Take heart though, these materials are very forgiving. If you screw something up, cut it out and try again.

[bens250ex]

rludtke that you for you thoughts it clears up a few questions i had. wish i could start it more today but i gotta head back to work i can order some stuff and be getting ready to go when i get back.

[bdumas35]

If the budget allows, consider epoxy first.

You can choose hardeners with optional working times. (Slow, medium, fast). It's more foregiving. Search for the FAQ's on the US Composite site.

When polyester catylizes, it happens NOW. Adding the proper amount of catylyst (MEKP) is crucial. In other words it's easier to screw up. With epoxy it's 2:1,3:1 or whatever.

Temperature is a major factor.

With either resin type,you will want to go slow and use small batches at first. The bigger the batch the faster it will "go off". You can melt a mixing bucket if left too long.

On Fabric. Most agree that the Dual Bias 17oz. cloths are the way to go.

ie DB1700 or DB1708 biaxial. The 1708 has an additional layer of fiberglaas mat attached that helps to build thickness when needed. The 1700 is easier to wet out and uses less resin.

Not trying to give a tutorial here but just trying help to provide some things to search around for.

Search around on this site also. Plenty of a lot smarter than me over there.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/fiberglass-composite-boat-building/

[Okie Boarder]

Looks like you are getting headed in the right direction.

Some other things to consider...

*Doug Fir works really good for wood.

*CPES is good to use to coat the wood prior to installation.

*You might consider doing one stringer at a time so you have the others as a reference point. Also take and document measurements like crazy in case you need to refer back later.

*Wetting the fiberglass on a work table of some sort, then laying it in works really well.

[bens250ex]

guys i cant tell you enough how much this is helping me and putting me at a sense of ease. I know it isn't a walk in the park but it seems like i will gain alot of knowledge in composites and such during the project.


Can you pull the motor and trans while leaving the mounts attached to the stringers?

Where is a good place to get the shaft seals?

Where can i get other engine parts such as water pump stuff? while the motor is out i am going to change some stuff out do i will have less problems down the road.

[duckseatfree]

skidim.com and db electrical are great places to get parts. If you have any questions about what parts I personally know that skidim does a great job of answering any questions you have

[bens250ex]

im deff doin one at a time so i can keep it a lil more solid. Tryin to figure our a resign poly or epoxy? poly is way cheaper but is it good for this job? will it last?

[bens250ex]

im looking for the wood also. Douglas is desired i found it and can get it shipped but man is it pricy. What else can be subed in that is good to use? Anybody have luck getting this stuff local?

[rludtke]

Can you pull the motor and trans while leaving the mounts attached to the stringers?
Yes, the mount brackets bolt to the engine and trans, and they also bolt to the stringers



Where is a good place to get the shaft seals?
Discount Inboard Marine or SkiDim
http://www.skidim.com/



Where can i get other engine parts such as water pump stuff? while the motor is out i am going to change some stuff out do i will have less problems down the road.
Discount Inboard Marine

In my mind, the engine work, and the hull repair should be two separate projects. Sometimes taking to much apart at once can become mentally overwhelming. Consider just setting the motor aside until the boat is ready to recieve it again. The hull repair is a lot to take on at once.

Most of the engine stuff could be addressed later with the engine mounted in the boat. The water pump on the Supra is very accesible when the engine is in the boat. Everything accept the oil pan is accesible with the engine in the boat. The replacement of the water pump or other accesories does not need to be associated with the engine removal. That said, if you think anything internal to the engine needs attention, including leaking oil pan or main seals, the time to repair them is when the engine is out.

[rludtke]

im deff doin one at a time so i can keep it a lil more solid. Tryin to figure our a resign poly or epoxy? poly is way cheaper but is it good for this job? will it last?

While I cant be sure, I am suspicious that the Supra used epoxy during the original layup. Epoxy bonds better to epoxy, because the new epoxy will soften and chemically bond with old epoxy. Applying polyester to epoxy will only result in a mechanical bond, which is probably adequate, but not as great as epoxy. Epoxy is thought to bond better to old polyester as well, but this too will be only a mechanical bond.

On the other hand, if you are more familiar with using polyester, you may be uncomfortable messing with epoxy or visa versa. One is thin, the other is thick. One must be fully wet out in one batch, the other can be multiple batches etc. While I recognize the likelyhood of a better bond with epoxy, I would probably pick polyeester because I am more comfortable with it.

[bens250ex]

hmmm rludtke this is something i am going to have to think about. Guys that have done this what do you think?

Rludtk you are right about the to many thing going on at one time. I have dealt with this before while building atv's...you end up loosing stuff and creating a cluster. I deff will prob change the oil pan gasket while the engine is out so i can have peace of mind with that. Also might look at replacing the main seal. I might do this after i get the new stringers laid and im letting everything cure.

[rludtke]

Hi bens250ex,

The one thing that I haven't figured out in my mind yet, is the locating the new holes in the stringers for mounting the engine. The alignment of the shaft to engine is very critical, and the locations for the engine mount brackets will be no longer known.

I imagine that that the engine, trans, and driveshaft can all be loaded into the boat and connected to each other while the mount brackets are clamped to the stringers. Then all can be aligned, probably by a dial gauge (there must be a process for this), and then the stringer holes can be drilled for bolting the mounts in. I suspect that this needs to be accompished prior to fastening the floor (but am unsure). This might mean that the engine and trans needs to be installed temporarily for the engine mount hole locating, then removed again for floor installation, bilge paint, etc.

This is my guess, I haven't researched this BB yet to see how others have accomplished this. This is one of the biggests open questions in my mind.

[Ptownkid]

I can't be entirely positive...but I'm reasonably sure that they built their hulls with Polyester.

[Salty87]

i don't think the factory used epoxy either. i went with poly for that reason and to save $. just like wood, it's a personal preference thing. i used marine ply because i think it will last longer than cpes coated non-marine. the way i see it, i don't have the tools or experience to fiberglass like a factory so in case i did a crappy job somewhere i'd have the best wood (imo) to last as long as possible. same with foam...form an opinion and stick to it.

rludtke is right about the engine mount position. i saved the fiberglass skins from the engine area, it was so rotted that's all that was really left. they are great for reference points. but, it's not as critical as you might think. there's some fudge room but not alot.

[wotan2525]

For my engine mounts, I reinstalled the strurt, prop shaft and coupler and just used that as a reference for where to drill and install the engine. The mounts are adjustable in multiple ways so as long as you get it close to the coupler, it's not terribly difficult to align. Reusing the old mounting points is an excercise in futility since it has much more to do with where your coupler is than where your old (and probably out of alignment) engine used to be.

[bens250ex]

im flip floppin on the epoxy vrs poly im sure both will do a fine job. My helper said to use a feeler gauge and get it back into specs when putting the engine back in. My stringers are so gone it would be safe to say the motor and trans are already out of line so really i will just be trying to get the stringers back to the correct hight and distance apart then just put the motor back in there to find the alignment.

Poly is cheaper thats a big plus. if it work then it works.

Wood this is a big choice. What came in this boat factory? Everyone says douglas fir is good but i read around and some people think it soaks up alot of water when exsposed and rots really fast? Its also very exspensive. Here are some woods i came up with while searching

Western Larch- dont know anything about it
Douglas Fir- light, exspensive, could rot fast if exsposed to water for long time
yellow pine- splits easy
Ceder- no clue about this
cypress- no clue about this either

Anyone have any thoughts? i found a place for the douglas but it will have to be shipped and it is some high price wood and after reading it may not be the best? I dont care about weight just need a wood thats not going to split and rot fast.

[bens250ex]

salty were your stringers one solid piece from the factory or were they multi? does anyone know if mine is one solid piece or is it pieced together?

[bdumas35]

Resins.

My 87 Saltare has a sticker saying it was built with " Ashland AME 4000 Marine Resin" which is a vinylester resin.

From Wikepedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_ester

[wotan2525]

I think my factory stringers were multiple pieces of (some kind of treated) plywood that were stapled together. I replaced mine with the same.

[bdumas35]

Wood.

I got it down to two choices. Fir or Marine Ply. I went with marine ply.

That clear Doug. Fir is high dollar.

You won't find marine ply at the big orange or blue stores but some independent lumber yards have it.

I sometimes wonder if you really need marine grade since you are completly saturating and encapsulating it.

My factory stringers were laminated ply of some sort. Who knows. But they certainly weren't encapsulated. Lots of bare Rotten) wood showing.

BTW Cedar is a bad option due to the oils in the wood.

[bens250ex]

ok got ya. What about where the engine mounts it needs to be wider? what is used there? salty what did you use at this spot? i looked through your thread but didn't see what it was.

I found a place that sells marine grade plywood local so im good on that.

[bens250ex]

i also saw on boatbuilders that epoxy to poly does well. Is that correct? there is a ton of confusing info if you pull from various sources

[rludtke]

i also saw on boatbuilders that epoxy to poly does well. Is that correct? there is a ton of confusing info if you pull from various sources

Of all the mix-matching combinations, Epoxy on poly or vinylester is the strongest, but I think that all will be more than adequate for your needs.

I used to work for a company that produced the Glasair composite kit aircraft wich used vinylester resin. All of the bonded parts in that design where secondary bonds. The Glasair is an extremely strong high performance aircraft.

[bdumas35]

Of all the mix-matching combinations, Epoxy on poly or vinylester is the strongest, but I think that all will be more than adequate for your needs.

I used to work for a company that produced the Glasair composite kit aircraft wich used vinylester resin. All of the bonded parts in that design where secondary bonds. The Glasair is an extremely strong high performance aircraft.

That sums it up.

Not to go too far off topic Rick but the Glasair is a very cool airplane. How were you involved?

[rludtke]

That sums it up.

Not to go too far off topic Rick but the Glasair is a very cool airplane. How were you involved?

Research and Development. I worked with a small team to build the Glasair IIS production prototype, and then later I developed the turbocharger system installation for the Glasair III. Fun times.

[bens250ex]

Yea i think epoxy is going to be the way i go.

[bens250ex]

i think i am going to use the 635 thin epoxy with the 3:1 hardener from uscomposites.

[bdumas35]

You may want to try the 2:1 first if you're working temp is >80 deg. The pot life on the med.3:1 is 20 - 25 minutes.2:1 35-40 min. Especially when you are doing your fillet work with the cabosil or other thickened mixture. It takes a while to mix all of that stuff, get it in a application bag, and apply. I've had the mixture get so hot that I could barely handle it.

Another advantage of the slow is that it does not "blush". Meaning that you can apply another layer after the first has cured without worring about removing the blush.

Sooo. You could do your filet work one day then start laminating the next day with minor prep.

I prepped everything for one stringer and did it all at one shot. Had the cloth all cut and ready to wet out. Did the the fillets. Then wet out the cloth with a spreader on a table with plastic on it. Fold up the wet cloth and climb into the boat. Start at one end and unfold over the stringer.

You'll want as much working time as possible on the first one.

[rludtke]

I have wet out laminants on the table before too. I like to put strip of heavy plastic down (saran wrap is ok) then put down your cut fabric, and then pour on the measured out resin, and lay down a covering layer of plastic. Squirt the plastic with a little spray soap, and squeegy the resin around to wet out the fabric, and then squeegy the air and extra resin out of the laminants by working squeegy from one end to the other in one direction. Remove top layer of plastic, and pick up the whole mass of laminants by the lower plastic sheet and move to the boat. Brush on thin layer of resin to area, and carefully place the stackup into the boat. Squeegy the plastic sheet again (remember the squirty soap, which acts as a squeegy lubricant), and then carefully remove the plastic. This method can be a huge time saver for flat single or two plane surfaces, but may not be ideal for complex shapes. For the boat, I imagine being able to use this method almost everywhere.

[Salty87]

pretty sure mine were all plywood.

another thing to consider with ply vs lumber is strength to weight. i know we all want more weight but the alternating layers of plywood are stronger than a single grain lumber. of course, plywood might break down quicker if it ever gets wet. that's what lead me back to marine ply.

[rludtke]

pretty sure mine were all plywood.

another thing to consider with ply vs lumber is strength to weight. i know we all want more weight but the alternating layers of plywood are stronger than a single grain lumber. of course, plywood might break down quicker if it ever gets wet. that's what lead me back to marine ply.

I agree. The grain structure of plywoods laminants are biased 45 degrees, which makes it stronger in all dimensions. Also it is very resistance to compression, which is better than lumber for applications such as the motor mount bolts. A thick beam of laminated plywood is stronger than equal dimension lumber of any sort.

[bens250ex]

salty in this pic what is the piece of wood that the engine mounts are attached to? it doesn't look like plywood??

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/IMG_0386.jpg

[Salty87]

nope, you busted me on that one. i chose to use 4x4 pressure treated in that spot (and coated with thinned poly like people do with cpes. in fact, i coated all wood with thinned epoxy so i wouldn't run into as many dry spots when laying glass. wood will soak in a bunch of resin leaving the glass not fully wetted and therefore a bad layup). the plywood used by the factory was complete mush. the engine mounts literally ripped out of the fiberglass when i pulled the engine (plywood wasn't holding the bolts anymore). even though i made the hull dryer by adding drainage, i was concerned that layered laminates might soak water again. i also thought the bolts might find better long term grip in lumber.

ok, one more reason is that for a saltare the 4x4's were perfect size of original construction. i figured i'd have the best chance of everything lining up correctly when done.

ps...you can see the engine mount 'skins' that i kept for reference.

[bdumas35]

I used 3/4 ply stacked and glued. It took a lot of time and wood. I glassed it up with 5 layers of 17 oz. Ought to be there awhile.

If you use treated 4x4 make sure it's dry.

Don't throw anything away. I used my old stringers to make hardboard(masonite) templates. Keep them intact as best you can. Of course it's difficult to keep rotted wood together.

[rludtke]

The only issue with using plywood that I can imagine, might be that the plywood edge may not recieve the floor screws as well as lumber. Of course softwood doublers could be added to one side at the top of each new structure member (glassed in of course) to give more surface area for the floor to ride on, and to better recieve the floor screws. This is probably overkill, as the original plywood lasted 20 some years.

[bens250ex]

ok now i am getting more of an idea on how to lay this out with the marine plywood. I think i am going to try this instead of the douglas. This method seems easier to keep everything in check and save some cash at the same time.


rludtke i see what you mean by the screw not recieving it well thats something to think about as well...

Salty how much cloth and epoxy did you end up using?

[Salty87]

20 gal of poly, maybe more. saltares are a bunch bigger than a comp though.

cloth...i used some lighter cloth, some woven roven, and glass tape. i'll have to see if i can find receipts somewhere. i bought so much of it and in small batches i didn't keep accurate track...easier on the bank account that way too.

[bens250ex]

good lord 20 gal!! i thought it was less. i better start saving some more! I guess i might need around 15 gal.

[Ptownkid]

Yeah, the resin goes really fast!!!

[rludtke]

Poly or vinylester resin would be adequate, and a lot less money. I wouldn't hestiate to use the cheapest brand of polyester resin you can find.

[bens250ex]

yea its going to have to be poly, i dont want to drag this project out and waiting to save enough for the epoxy might take a while. I had no clue it took that much. What poly is good ? uscomposite has several different ones not sure which to look at?

[bens250ex]

how about the 700 vinly?

[bdumas35]

Check out USComposites 435 Standard Polyester Layup Resin.

Also check this link to Infinty Composites for DB1700 or DBM1708. The 1708 has a 3/4 oz mat sewn to it. Not sure if you need it. I didn't but I used epoxy.
They can advise what's best for Poly. Good guys.

http://stores.infinityfrp.com/-strse-FIBERGLASS-cln-Knitted-%26-Biaxial-cln-DB1700-x-50%22-45-fdsh-45/Categories.bok

I bought a 100# roll and still have some left after everything.

[bdumas35]

Vinylester would be a step up from poly but cheaper than epoxy.

[rludtke]

I am not the expert, but the Glasair used vinylester only for its fuel resistance properties: it was developed for the fuel industry for making composite pipes etc. My understanding is that vinylester and polyester are equivelent by every other measure.

[bdumas35]

Rick,

It's interesting that Wikipedia referenced the Glasair in their vinylester description. Cool.

I have never used it but had some friends in the windsurf board industry that used it.

I used epoxy exclusively in the lamination phases in my windsurf/surfboard business. Also carbon R/C Sailpane components.

Many projects were vacuum bagged so I needed the time flexibilty and strength of epoxy.

I think in Ben's case poly will be fine.

[rludtke]

poly/vinylester can be vaccumm bagged as well but your right, the working time is reduced, so everything needs to be prepared in advanced, and you need a team of people. Glasair bagged and oven cured all of there molded parts. This wasn't practical for the assembly of the molded parts, for that we did hand lay-ups at room temp.

[bdumas35]

Rick.
Thanks I was curious about vacuuum bagging vinylester.

Ben,

I laminated mine in sections. Transom to the motor mount. In front of the motor mount.Then tied in the prelaminated motor mount.

Sorry but I lost some pictuers along the way.

From Salty's pics it looks like he may have done something similar.

[bens250ex]

so you guys think there really isn't any difference between the 700 and 435? rludke it seems like you know about this stuff? any thoughts about it?

i have no clue with this stuff its like a different language. I mess with metals and so forth and this is just a total different ball game.

Has anyone used the 435?

Can i wrap the motor mounts in a layer of glass then set them in and glass a couple more layers on them? or is this overkill?

What would should i use for motor mounts? should i just do layers of ply or something like a 4x4?

What about the holding the stringers into place off the hull does the poly work the same when you add thickining agents to make a peanut butter substance?

i have read about the foam some people use to hold the stringers off the hull. where can you get it and is it a good idea or should i look for somethin else to set the stringers up off the hull?

[rludtke]

so you guys think there really isn't any difference between the 700 and 435? rludke it seems like you know about this stuff? any thoughts about it?

i have no clue with this stuff its like a different language. I mess with metals and so forth and this is just a total different ball game.

Has anyone used the 435?

Can i wrap the motor mounts in a layer of glass then set them in and glass a couple more layers on them? or is this overkill?

What would should i use for motor mounts? should i just do layers of ply or something like a 4x4?

What about the holding the stringers into place off the hull does the poly work the same when you add thickining agents to make a peanut butter substance?

i have read about the foam some people use to hold the stringers off the hull. where can you get it and is it a good idea or should i look for somethin else to set the stringers up off the hull?

I actually do not know much about the two resins you are interested in, but I think anything will work. Which one is cheapest?

You do not have to do all of the laminants all at once, but I would do an entire length of cloth all at once. My bench top method (see previous post) is a great time saver, as all laminants can be squeegied of air and extra resin in one or two passes of the squeegy on the bench, then with only a little more work, can be placed into the boat and the air between the boat and laminants stack up is removed by squeegy. The entire lenght of the stringer could be accomplished this way in 10 minutes or so, providing everything is prepared in advance. This is how the one peice Glasair wings are laminated togather at the rear spar, numerous tapes were laminated into an internal C section 22 feet long. The leading edge seams of the wing were also accomlished this way, as was all of the fuselage seams.

Polyy works very well with any type of thixotropic (thickening agent). Stay away from micro ballons, as they are not structural. Mill fibers are the strongest, but the resin can drip out. To help with this, I mix mill fibre and cabosil in a 50/50 mixture, then add resin. This will be perfect for the stringer gap. I wouldn't use foam, it isn't structural. The mill fibre/cabolsil will be denser than the wood, and help prevent the hull from flexing, while being conformal to the hull and preventing any voids. I would bed the stringers into a bed of mill fiber and cabosil in a 50/50 mixture. Check my previous post for a description.

I think the motor mount area can and should be built up with even more plywood laminants and fiber glass laminants in the motor region. I would consider laminating all of your wood parts with one layer of glass after trimming is comlete, but before assembly. This way all sides and edges (except the hull facing edge)are assured of being covered, which I reason, is easier on the bench than in the boat. The areas around the engine mounts would benefit from a large stackup of cloth (the cloth should taper down in thickness over a reasonably long area), which would be easier to accomplish on the bench.

Consider investing in Peel Ply as well. This is a fabric which is laminated against the final glass laminate, but spans the joint/laminant area. It allows extra resin to be pulled out the top (such as when bristling), but also retains some resin to create a smooth transitions across the edges of the cloth fabric. It also prepares the newly laminated surface for its next coat of laminants (if needed). After cure, the peel ply is peeled off, leaving a finished and textured appearance. You will not be able to see the edges of the cloth, and the surface will not require any sanding or grinding if you are going to laminate over it again.

The appearance element is not important for hidden areas under the floors, but if you plan to add more laminants later, then it can be a real mess and time saver. Peel ply can be used with the plastic-sheet-pre laminate method I described in the earlier post, you simply add it to the top of the fiberglass before the top layer of plastic, or you can add it to the boat after you remove the plastic from the laminants after placing in the boat.

[Salty87]

some of these things are just judgement calls....ply vs lumber, epoxy vs resin, foam vs no foam...if we didn't have these choices we'd be in russia, man. lol

you can lay down some cloth and resin and then come back later and lay down more BUT you must prep it before adding more. it's much easier and better to lay down your layers all at once. if you lay them when they are all wet, it will all harden as one. if you wait between layups, the finished product is only as good as your prep between layups.

the factory didn't use any epoxy, it was too expensive. as for holdings stringers off the hull, it really doesn't matter. as soon as you glass it in, the glass and resin take over. whatever is under the stringers is there until the next time someone decides to grind them down. foam, thickened resin, wedges...as long as the stringer isn't touching the hull.

rig up a brace to hold the stringer. lay a fat bead of thickened resin, set the stringer in its brace, work a nice fillet, make sure all voids are filled and the fillet is smooth. then get ready for glassing.

[bens250ex]

sounds good fellas. I guess ill go with the cheap poly.

Anybody know anything about laminated veneer lumber? could this be used in the motor mount spot? i really dont know what it is even after searching google for answers?

[bens250ex]

bdumas i was looking at your rebuild thread, how many boards do you have sandwiched for the motor mounts?

[bdumas35]

I'm pretty sure it was 7 layers of 3/4.

[bens250ex]

engine is out, rub rail is off she is basically ready for the cap to come off. ill post some pics tomorrow.

[bens250ex]

whos ready to cry??? i think a mental blind person worked on this boat before. This is sad and im open to offers on what to do to fix the millionholes drilled into the cap.....Im thinking about fillin with something then puttin a thin layer of glass over em.. I mean this is like a WTF moment........anyways heres the pics cry, laugh, cuss i did em all when i saw this.......

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/tt083.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/tt082.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/tt080.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/tt086.jpg

[bens250ex]

oh yea i got the engine out......

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/tt093.jpg

This is real good right here, good craftsmanship on the replacing out stringers....

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/tt070.jpg

Yup they did not even cover it in glass fully.... not only that the little part they did cover peeled off.....

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/tt071.jpg

So fellas at this point.......I might need a few drinks, a pep talk, somethin....this is freakin aweful....Say a prayer fellas thats all i can say at this point

[mapleleaf]

Here's the Pep: My boat and prolly a ton more have all those holes under the rub rail.....Some with screws some with rivet's, I think it was whatever worked at the factory...
Now more beer and Demo that floor....Looks like it's coming along well.....

[bens250ex]

Here's the Pep: My boat and prolly a ton more have all those holes under the rub rail.....Some with screws some with rivet's, I think it was whatever worked at the factory...
Now more beer and Demo that floor....Looks like it's coming along well.....

Best words i have heard all day my friend lol

[Jetlink]

Call friends that are handy with tools and invite them over for beers, and have them help get that floor out.

[Salty87]

love it...i'm gonna even have to go with previous owner vs factory work. hoping against odds, i'm going to give the factory benefit of the doubt that they did better work than that. but i won't bet on it.

either way, goes to show that there's a million different ways to go about it. some will def last longer than others.

leaf is right, they're all nasty behind the rub rail. a quick fill and cloth is fine since nobody will see. just a drop in the bucket by the time you're done.

no foam anywhere?...are you going to keep the screw-down wall design when you're done?

you're really gonna like having a boat that's good as new.

[bens250ex]

as far as i can tell salty there is no foam left. Which i am glad i dont have to mess with it.( i dont think i will put foam back in either) And the half assed stringers will be easy to come out. There is some foam between the cap and the hull on the sides where the speakers are not really sure if it would actually do anything if somethin happened.

What other ways are there to do the wall? i figured it had to be screwed down?

Sadly since i work out of town i can only work on it on the weekends but i am taking a week off here in a couple of weeks and thats when i hope to get it pretty much worked over. I have several people helping me so work goes fast. there is only a few rivets left holding the cap and we left them on since i couldnt pull the cap yesterday. Pretty much just got to disconnect steering and the bildge and the cap is ready to be lifted.

What do you guys think would fill the holes? that 5200 stuff i have heard people talk about or should i fill it with somethin else? i figure why the hell not fix some of the mess.

I will be ordering supplies this week so i will come up with a list and post it before i do order so i can make sure im not fudgin nothin up.

Has anybody had any experience with gell coat repairs? i got a few i need to attend to.

[bens250ex]

what kind of cloth would be good to go around the edges of the cap? should i just use what i will be using for stringers or should i go with somethin else? i am going to use the dbm1708 for stringers.

[Okie Boarder]

I'd say go with the cloth you're going to use on the stringers.

[bens250ex]

sooooo i guess the web went down??? but looks like its up for now. Here is the update. Spent all week working on the boat pulled the cap and went to work. It is pretty much stripped now i took one stringer out...well actually it fell out when i pulled the floor up. it was one of the out side stringers so i still have the main one in. Basically this has turned into replace every piece of wood in the boat. I will be doing just that. Even the wood for the rudder mount, and the lift hooks. I stripped down most of the transom and i am trying to come up with somethin non wood to put there.

I have all the fabric and epoxy sitting at the house, i am trying to locate some douglas fir. I bought some yellow pine that was "No 1" but it was actually No 2. So i will make me a book shelf or somethin with that 30' of yellow pine...... Cause it is NOT goin in the boat.

I also decided last night i am going to change the maroon stripes to either black or silver the trailer will eventually recieve a full make over as well. I am going to be slowed down a good bit now, i start my senior year of college next tues and it will be tough to make it home all the time since school is 2.5 hours away. I am content with the amount of work i got done. Still alot to get done but now everything is making sense and so forth and i have learned alot. This is some messy work for sure. If i ever did it again i would do it outside. I used my g/f's dad shop and made a complete mess. There is glass EVERYWHERE. I will be spending my time today cleaning it up and sticking the cap back on till i get home again. Hopefully i can get back here in a couple of weeks and start laying the new stringers. i have some photo's i will post up with i get on my laptop.

Have the say thanks to okie i found him on another site and emailed him and he has been very helpful!

[lively]

good to hear !! i gotta ask what did you use to pull the cap ?

[bens250ex]

2 hoists built onto a frame. ill take a pic of them later. You could build some outside pretty simple.

[lively]

yeah i was thinking of making an A frame on casters and all but i mean how many guys would it take to pick it up you think ? are they heavy ?

On mine i popped holes to the motor mounts to check the wood and right at the exhaust downpipe (under the floor) is where the rot stops and the wood seems dry , i plan to pull the motor on sat and get the rub rail off a rivets drilled out , what all did you disconnect ? And what did you use to split the two halfs ? pry bar ? thanks man , Im like you blind folded but you just got a head start !! lol

[mapleleaf]

I'm almost too excited to type responses, Forum's back!!! Doug Fir is a great choice, White oak also an incredible boat makers species, my experience with marine ply have been less then outstanding, I'd stick with some true dimensional lumber...just my 0.02

[bens250ex]

lively-
to split the hull just disconnect steering blower lines, wires to battery,bildge and what every else is runing through there. My boat was far from a virgin to this. Someone had already raped the hell out of her. I am trying to show it some tender love and care so oneday she will be on the water again! dont use a crow bar fiberglass is brittle i dont know what the cap is sealed with from the factory the person who sealed mine up used some regular clear stuff (cant think of the name) Basicaaly i got all the rivets out and take your lift hooks off and then start lifting if it doesnt break free take a knife and cut around the edge if there is anything holding it. How heady is it?? well....3 is not enough i found this out the hard way and dropped mine while carrying it, with 6 it felt like a feather and could have ran a marathon with it.


Question guys- do i do solid main stringers or would it be ok to piece them like the factory? Marine ply will be last resort.

[Salty87]

what do you have against marine ply?

[lively]

yeah that clears my thought up , Im still searching for a stringer and bulkhead grid so i can plan some drainage the correct way .. OH! hey where can i get the exhaust vent bezels that are on the rear ? mine are busted ... thanks for all the help !

[Salty87]

i got mine at west marine. they had to order them.

[lively]

thanks salty87 !

[mapleleaf]

what do you have against marine ply?
I've found the dimensional lumber less prone to mold and mildew, don't really know why, I do like working with marine ply it just seems to attract trouble on the boat....

[bens250ex]

i dont really have anything against it, i just dont want to spend the time combining the boards to make the correct thickness. :lol:

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/DSCF0075.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/DSCF0070.jpg

i found a pool!
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/DSCF0071.jpg

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/DSCF0078.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/DSCF0079.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/DSCF0081.jpg

[lively]

soo I pulled the motor and the rear deck today to get a little inspection .. fOAM is saturated with water , and 1 outer and rear main stringer is half way rotted .. Have you looked or talked to anyone regarding drainage ? i just wonder about returning the foam and having the same thing happen lol seems pointless , so maybe 1/2 pvc for drainage ?

Ill post some pics this coming weekend but thanks for all the help !

[bens250ex]

do some searched on google and you can find some different pics from different builds and gives you some ideas for drains. I will not be putting foam back in and will be making ports for water flow in the stringers using pvc halvs.

lively where are you located?

[lively]

Fort worth, Tx ... so what would happen if i dont put foam back in ? I thought that was used for flotation of the boat .. I mean will it be ok not to put in back in there ? Thanks again

[bens250ex]

foam is for if it starts sinking it will not go to the bottom. It will stay somewhat afloat. Prob a good idea but just wait till you tear yours out. You will hate it after that. Heck i only had to tear out a little area and that took forever, and alot of sweat.

[lively]

ha ha yeah i know right i took my rigid vac and a crow bar ... So this weekend im going to build a A- frame and hook up a chain hoist to get the cap off and Gut the inside .. I think im going to video my Whole tear down and repair .. so that way i can get some insight of other ideas ..

[Okie Boarder]

Ben...coming along nicely. That section up front that they boxed in is where I had a bunch of water too. That's the area I left more open, partially to eliminate that problem and partially to give a place for hiding a ballast bag.

As far as foam is concerned, there seems to be a lot of debates out there on sites I've seen including this one. I did call and talk to Jim at Viper and asked about his experience with foam and more specifically Supra's intent for using it back in the day. He said they used the foam stricly for rigidity and sounds dampening. He explained to me that there isn't enough foam to help float the boat. I asked what would happen with a foamed vs unfoamed boat and he stated they would behave the same if they took on water. He says the stern would drop below the surface and the boat would bob at the surface bow up. Just an FYI.

I went no foam, did limber holes along the main stringers and also in each corner where I mounted ribs (cross-braces). All the ribs are attached to the stringer and the hull, oriented vertical, and are mostly 2x material, so that part of the design of my rebuild addresed the rigidity issue.

[lively]

so no hollow sounds or anything ? i mean how much weight could that foam have on that boat ? does it seem lighter or weaker ? thanks for the reply ! Im thinking of no foam also i just want to make sure its gotta with stand the abuse w/ no affect

[lively]

do you have any pics of your rebuild ?

[Salty87]

dry foam might add 10 lbs to the boat.

i didn't put as much back in as the factory used. i haven't noticed any changes in sound. when the engine is roaring and the wind in your ears, you won't hear anything different.

[lively]

i think ill just fill the bow and then glass in some pvc pluming . im just freaked out what i saw on bens picture of the upper bow , that where my cooler sits ... but thanks for all the help ! kyle

[Salty87]

under the cooler will probably be the worst spot for you too. that's the deepest part, above the v of the hull. are you rebuilding a saltare? if so, the routing of the air vent hoses is a mess.

i don't think you need pvc. bow up cruising around and any trapped water will have to run to the back. pvc could get clogged. if you're leaving the foam out, all you really need is limber holes.

[lively]

No im rebuilding a 86 sunsport ... so where do you think i should put the foam if i do put any , and (limber holes ) do i just need those cut outs on the rear of the stringers or throughout the bow also ? , thanks

[bdumas35]

On mine, i put one at the transom, one in front of and one behind the motor mount of the main stringer. One at the transom on the outers.

No foam for me.

[rludtke]

I vote No Foam. I think it does more harm than good. I would consider adding limber holes anywhere water can collect, and also consider adding limber holes at the top of the stringers where they meet the floors to help vent air as well. This should help allow the underfloor area to dryout after it gets wet.

[lively]

Yeah ill have to look and see what is best .... deff thinking of no foam .. it just makes more since staying dry and all ... cant wait to rip it out and get going this weekend ... all of yall check out my thread that way im not on bens lol .. thanks again guys and ill post pics along the way ..

[Okie Boarder]

so no hollow sounds or anything ? i mean how much weight could that foam have on that boat ? does it seem lighter or weaker ? thanks for the reply ! Im thinking of no foam also i just want to make sure its gotta with stand the abuse w/ no affect

Like Salty mentioned, at speed you can't tell the difference. I only notice a difference when we're sitting still...you can hear water slapping the hull and it kind of echoes in the hull. It's hard to explain, but it certainly isn't bothersome.

My limber holes are just in front and behind the engine mount area, plus I did the large cutouts at the rear of each stringer.

[rludtke]

My guess is the foam is required to protect the boat from sinking if the hull is breached, such as from a collision. If the hull was punctured, the folatation foam would probably be beneficial. But, the manufacturer needs to instal foam because a) it is a coast guard requirement (I think), and B) The have the product liability of an entire fleet of boats that might be involved in a collision accident (fleet risk) to consider. Us guy's, the boat owners, we are only exposed to the risk of a fleet of one (unless you are really sick and own multiple boats :p ) Statisticaly speaking, the likelyhood of any one of us experiencing a hull breach that could lead to a sinking is extremely improbable. For that reason, I would not hesitate to leave the foam out after accomplishing stringer repairs.

[lively]

Ok No foam it is .. i know the slapping sounds your speaking of lol , so with the limber holes do i make holes on the rear of all 4 stringers ? I have pic's on my thread if yall would like to see the boat ... i will be trying to separate the cap this weekend , but only if i can get away from the wife lol .. wish me luck

[bdumas35]

Yeah at the rear of all four stringers and at least in front of the motor mount. Water can get trapped there.

I believe Rick is right about the USCG and foam requirements. I am just going to buy an Agreed Value Insurance Policy like they do with classic cars.

Don't want it to sink after all the work but... just saying.

[bens250ex]

ya insurance will be a must on the boat after all this work. Good news for my build is i found douglas fir local!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yay!!

[lively]

ben- im still trying to find a good wood for mine .. why does everyone use douglas ? im guessing its a firm wood ? hard to rot ?

[bens250ex]

i really dont know the real reason it is used. It just seems all the boat builders say it is one of the best choices. Find local lumber yards and start callin. I prob called 10 or so and found 2. One could get it and the other had it in stock. Also when you call one place and they say no we dont have it ask well who might carry it around this area. Thats how i ended up finding the one place that actually had it in stock.

[lively]

ok ill start calling , so where you live at ben ?

[bens250ex]

right outside of memphis,tn

[lively]

cool man ! I'm waiting for this tx heat to cool down so i can get to working on my boat

[bens250ex]

i just braved the heat last week when i tore into mine. needles to say itway ruff. when i would pull off the suit my clothes would be solid water. Damn was it hot...i was inside too.

[lively]

yeah when i yanked the motor and rear floor last sat it was humid as hell and i couldn't drink enough water ... but this weekend im hitting it hard and getting this cap off and the floor out ! yay!!

[bens250ex]

update....didnt make much progress today besides maybe screwin up with some cabosil. I tried to fill some holes in the transom and the holes along the rub rail and well it might have not gone so swell. 1st time mixing this stuff and i might have got it jacked up. I guess we will see if it sets

[oldman]

Marine tex works good for filling small holes.

[bens250ex]

wish i had seen that. might order some and try it

[lively]

Ben - r u using poly or epoxy ? And how much cabosil did you use ?

I have been doing quarts at a time , and the kick time is like 15 min

[bens250ex]

im using epoxy.....it was a total bust, made a complete mess and then it rained on it. ill get up tomorrow and see if i can get the stuff off, it was my fault i jumped at putting it on too early. i should have done some more prep work, it was just where the rivet holes were so not crucial to perfection. :eek:

[bens250ex]

questions guys:

I am trying to get the rudder assembly out. I have the rudder off but cant get the assembly apart? how does it come apart?

What works best to cut new stringers? i just cut the main one out and kept it together for a guide. I have some lumber in the garage (doug fir) hopefully i can get the stringers cut by night fall.

UPDATE on the CABOSIL- it turned out better than i thought although that stuff is a bitch to mess with. Contemplating using something else to secure the new stringers to the hull what you guys think?

My rudder is cracked on the shaft i knew it was bent but didnt think it was cracked i guess i should have known. Hopefully i can get it bent back and get the crack welded up. I also will need all new seals for the rudder anyone have the part numbers for this? Main thing is getting the rudder assembly apart so i can cut out a new pad. Thanks guys if anyone has text and sees this feel free to text me cause i might not be around the computer. My number is (901)-461-6705

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/supra2.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/supra3.jpg

[lively]

Lol u were right same spot same side lol man I wish I had grass that looked that good ... Did u get that rudder out ? How did u do it ?

[bens250ex]

i got the rudder out it just slid out, but i cant get the assembly thing apart? hopefully Rickr can chime in on how it comes apart.

[lively]

well im sure that thing has a snap ring to hold that packing in place . if it didnt i think it would leak ... have you cleaned it out good ?

[bens250ex]

as far as i could tell there isnt another snap ring besides the one that holds the rudder itself in. i dont know if it maybe screws apart or what?

[lively]

yeah idk ill have to look at mine to give some advise , hopefully someone will chime in , I would clean it up real good and look for another snap ring ..

[Salty87]

i've never taken one apart...yet. mine's leaky.

skidim knows the answers to most things supra. i've sat in my boat with phone in 1 hand and wrench in the other. great folks.

[mapleleaf]

i've never taken one apart...yet. mine's leaky.

skidim knows the answers to most things supra. i've sat in my boat with phone in 1 hand and wrench in the other. great folks.
I second that... My old rudder port just unbolted from the hull, it was the packing gland style.....

[bens250ex]

skidim said it should just come apart. I can twist both top and bottom pieces separate but still doesnt seem to want to come apart. I dont want to apply to much force and crack the glass..

[lively]

well if it's a sleeve that fits inside one another , you might wanna try a wood punch .. but dont be afraid ... you got more resin and mat ") lol jk man

[oldman]

skidim said it should just come apart. I can twist both top and bottom pieces separate but still doesnt seem to want to come apart. I dont want to apply to much force and crack the glass..

Maybe it's just some sealant holding on. Can you twist the one plate around a couple times while you secure the other plate.

[bens250ex]

I tried doin that , I held the bottom piece and twisted the top. I'll have to give it another go and see what happens

[rickr]

Ben
Any luck yet? 5200 is good stuff ;)

https://forum.supraboats.com/showthread.php?2855-87-TS6M-COMP-Restoration/page11

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=11151&partNumber=1174804&langId=-1

[bens250ex]

thanks for the response rickr, i will not be home till next weekend and i hope to get back at it then. Rickr you did a dang good job how about i just drop mine off :) and let you go to town ! 5200 is some tuff stuff forsure.

[bens250ex]

Rickr is there seals inside of it and were did you get replacements from if there is?

[riveredge]

I find that 5200 is easier to break with slow pressure than blows with a hammer. Heat also helps, I have used a nice hot lamp before on tracking fins, it was like magic.
I got my rudder port out with a small prybar against the flange from the outside, and wood to pry against, so I wasn't prying right on the hull. Had to start with a thinner piece of wood, then move up to a 2x4, going around to each side, you get the idea. PITA to be sure. If there was much play in the old rudder it would be money well spent to replace it. My boat steers as well as a brand new boat now, it's night and day with a new rudder assembly. $376 shipped from skidim.

[sybrmike]

river's right - slow steady pressure on the 5200. When removing my rudder, I first cut the 5200 fillet out with a razor blade & then cut as deep into the joint as I could all the way around the flange. I heated the flange a bit with a propane torch & then used pry bars and wood blocks from several different angles & sides. No movement in what seemed like forever, but once it finally started to let loose - came off easy. Any luck?

[bens250ex]

what do you guys thin the epoxy with to coat it on the wood before laying it to the hull? I started cutting my main and outter stringers tonight going to fit them tomorrow and try to get them laid in.

[oldman]

what do you guys thin the epoxy with to coat it on the wood before laying it to the hull? I started cutting my main and outter stringers tonight going to fit them tomorrow and try to get them laid in.

I coat all my doug fir with cpes.

[bens250ex]

i would have done cpes if it wasnt so high and if i could get it local. Sanding the wood without a mask was a mistake :eek: i will try and take some pics later.

[bens250ex]

damn still more sanding. i got the outer stringer where i want it but i still gotta sand the bildge so i can put the inner in too. Bad part it i roasted the 7" sander now i gotta get another this small one isnt cutting it...

Did you guys cut/sand the bottom of your stringer to fallow the slant in the hull or did ya'll leave them mainly straight and use the cabosil/epoxy to build the platform between the hull and stringer?

[bens250ex]

cabosil is a nightmare. Im glad i did the outter stringer first, didnt have much luck. I have a .350-.420 gap that the cabosil filled. I dont know what i want to do about the main. I dont know if i want to try cabosil again or use the PL stuff. I bought some PL stuff the other day but decided to try the cabosil again. At this point in not in a very good mood.....

[lively]

Ben- Sounds like you need to get a pencil and paper and start drawing a plan .. my thoughts are always scattered when i take on big projects ... lol trust me it sucks ...

But on the HULL ANGLE i got 21 degress on the main stringer from the front to the start of the motor area , and i used a 7" resin pad 24 grit to shape the rest ..

Now on the cabosil .. where did you get yours from ? ARE you using epoxy ? how much are you mixing up in one batch ?

Go get you some 1/4" foam blocks to set the stringers on and then bed from there .. Keep on truckin bub .. the fun part just begun !:L)

[bens250ex]

It was a bad weekend lively i had a situation that came up saturday that took alot of my time and my thoughts and when i finanlly got back to working on the boat i was so scattered in my own thoughts it wasnt even funny. But oh well. I did put the main one in also and i used PL on it. I am going to have to go back and do some sanding/filling before i can glass it. I had to have more gap between the hull/stringer than i wanted but i guess thats what heppens when you got your mind someplace else and try to cut lol. It should be ok cant be anyworse than what i have seen from the factory so far. I will attack the other side alot different now that i know whats going on. I just had so much on my mind this weekend i prob should have just left the boat alone but i drove the 2 hours home to work on it so i couldnt justify not getting anything done.

Btw will 3/8 gap between hull/stringer in some spots be ok? i know its a bit more than 1/4" but what can i say im not a wood worker lol :oops:

[bens250ex]

i am using opoxy. I mixed up 32 oz of resin with 16 oz of hardener and what every amount of cabosil it took to get a peanut butter texture. I bought it all from uscomposites

[lively]

well from my understanding on the epoxy cabosil is not what u need to use ... it works better with poly than epoxy ... and if you got a 3/8" gap just fill that void in with PL and put some sand bags or at-least 100 lbs of weight overnight and let it set up ... don't worry to much on making an absolute perfect cut ... lol cause it wont happen lol trust me ... i had some areas i wasn't happy with and what i did to correct the issue was fill and pack with PL . .... Also on the peanut butter mix up ... they say epoxy takes more to thicken the resin , cut some chopped strand mat with some good scissors into some small almost powder strands and throw those in there also ... if you got questions text me 817 996 3051 ... that PL is some tough stuff so don't underestimate it i checked my boat 2 days ago and with PL as the bed and two layers of fiberglass .. they are solid as a rock !! use that acetone ! good luck man

[bens250ex]

ok thats good to hear! I can work with metal but wood i can never get to do what i want. Hell i built a tv stand the other day...and it was pretty crappy lol. It has been a learning curve. I just cant wait to get the wood work behind me.

[oldman]

Once you start to tab and wrap the wood stinger in you will feel the strength of the epoxy and fiberglass cloth. Enough layers of epoxy and cloth makes the doug fir just a good form for your rock solid fiberglass stringer! Look on the sites of tabbing in a stringers, fiberglass can be angled and overlapped for no worry ever amount of strength.

[lively]

ok thats good to hear! I can work with metal but wood i can never get to do what i want. Hell i built a tv stand the other day...and it was pretty crappy lol. It has been a learning curve. I just cant wait to get the wood work behind me.

Ben- check out wood working on you tube ... it helps remind me of things i forget over the years lol ... and they are great to just refresh yourself .. wood working is an art and just remember "measure twice, cut once" that's always what takes so much time for me , I try to be a perfectionist at everything i do ... and it always leads to more elaborate things to do ... but dont sweat it just stay calm and size up your plan , and tackle it 1 at a time

[bens250ex]

thanks guys for givin me a piece of mind about it. I still got alot of work ahead of me but it will be a couple weeks before i can get back at it. School comes first lol i just wish i had a place down here with a yard/garage i would be set then!

[Okie Boarder]

Don't worry too much about the gaps. Although you'll use more fill material to fill the gaps, once you've tabbed and/ or wrapped the wood in glass the large gap you had won't even have an impact on the overall strength.

[bens250ex]

I finally got the dang rudder assembly apart. Mine was a PITA!!!!! it took alot of prying and so forth. Using the wood agaisnt the hull got the job done though!

[lively]

Glad to hear ... Ben I mean to tell yea the glass work is no fun my friend lol , it's too cold I'n Texas so I'm renting a shop to finish the deck .. Have u got any wood cut yet ?

[bens250ex]

yea i have one side glued in, im going to sand out the bildge today and router the edges on the stringers,and try to build the motor mount and then make some fillets with cabosil/resin/and chop strands. Problem is i cant find the chop strands local so im going to try and make some out of some mat? not sure if its going to work though? My fillets with the PL didnt turn out to good so i need something that will lay smooth over it and i saw a guy on youtube doing it the same way, so ifigured i would try it. Weather is cool here too but i am going to put a lil electric heater in the boat and try to keep it warm so the resin will kick. I cant rent a shop but if this doesnt work i have a shop that i can probably use as a last resort.

[lively]

Ben - on the peanut butter just take a Dixie cup and cut a small square from your csm , and cut 1/4 long strands of it I'n the cup that what I have been doing , but when I went to my resin dealer they gave me a 1/2 pound of some crazy strong glass strands ... Let me tell u that for major fillets or build up those strands made stuff pretty study ! Oh and just alittle advice ahead of time .. Check to see what the humidity outside is ..... 1 resin won't set and u will hate getting it back up ! And 2 don't force air to help cure time cause all it will do is dry the top of the glass out and u will hate peeling that stuff up : remember : 70 - 85 degrees and 65% humidity is prime time to glass ... But what I did is set two 1000w lamps and two space heaters and tarped the boat it maintained 86 degrees with 0% humidity .. It works great just don't point the heat right at it for a long period . Object of the game is to make it like an oven and work with it that way ( but ur using epoxy right ?) that stuff can work well with lower temps than poly but I myself would use it the same way ... Go look at frisco jarrets on u tube that's helped me and the pics from the supra rider rebuild that ken did .. And good luck and happy thanksgiving !

[bens250ex]

thanks lively, i did watch one guy on youtube rebuild a ski boat, thats where i got the idea of the strands. I did try a lil test spot i had longer strands around 2" i will cut shorter ones next time. I hope it will kick and cure. it was around 60's today, and humidity wasnt too bad i dont think. The temp will drop tonight though. Here are progress pics, and i have a few questions. Ill try to put the questions above the the pic it applies too.

8253
Can i lay new glass over the yellow stuff or does it need to come all the way off? Its a pain to get up!
8254
These metal things that the wakeplate screws into, do they need to come out or do i leave them?
8255
This is my test fillet that goes over the PL and also has the chopped strands in it
8256
8257

[bens250ex]

8258

8259

[lively]

on the wake plate i dont have one yet but i cut all the metal washers and pilot drilled the holes out , then that where i used my strand of glass and peanut butter to fill in .. im gonna through bolt my plate so it just made more since to start back from square one ..

Fiberglass will bond to anything that has be ruffed or the wax has been sanded off in order to bond a new service of glass .... grind , acetone , glass ..

BOAT

Break
Out
Another
Thousand lol

[bens250ex]

hmm i might come up with some ideas for the wake plate and see what works best.

Yea i have heard that good ol sayin alot lol it so true well more like bust out a couple thousand is more like it. It will be worth it when i finish it, i have learned a ton and i have enjoyed most of it.

[lively]

yeah its alot of fun

[2002 LAUNCH SS OWNER]

I would check with Supra Factory, they gave my friend a quote on a 1984 or so Sunsport of 4500 dollars, this was removing cap
and using all fiberglass materials so you would end up with a 86 boat with no wood whatsoever in the floor and stringers. I have done this job twice
in my 30 years of boating and would not do it again. You will spend around 3000 dollars and countless hours breathing dust and fumes. If you get
factory to do it, it will be done right with lastest materials and technology. Call up the factory and ask for a price, they can re&re motor and transmission
and do carpets as well, or you could send boat down without power plant***

[docdrs]

I would check with Supra Factory, they gave my friend a quote on a 1984 or so Sunsport of 4500 dollars, this was removing cap
and using all fiberglass materials so you would end up with a 86 boat with no wood whatsoever in the floor and stringers. I have done this job twice
in my 30 years of boating and would not do it again. You will spend around 3000 dollars and countless hours breathing dust and fumes. If you get
factory to do it, it will be done right with lastest materials and technology. Call up the factory and ask for a price, they can re&re motor and transmission
and do carpets as well, or you could send boat down without power plant***


WOW, is this true???? 4500 sounds like a deal, at least to me, especially knowing that composite stringers will be used...........when was this quote given? why would you ever do it yourself????? what would they sell just the composite stringers for???? if you wanted to save time....... this open a whole new can of worms for you American Restoration guys

[Jetlink]

Looks like I might be calling Skiers Choice in the spring to see about this deal. I would love to get rid of the wood in my boat and have the peace of mind that composite stringers will bring me.

[Okie Boarder]

On the one picture where you're asking about laying the new glass onto the old without grinding away, you need to really look at the old. Is it well attached without any delamination? If not, it could be an area of concern. The best method is to lay your new glass to the original layer of the hull, not the glass that was previously laid over it. But, the key is a good bond to a solid layer.

[bens250ex]

It seems solid, if there is any air pockets I have grinded them all away till it reached solid glass . I think my game plan for Christmas break will be to go ahead and grind out the other side and lay new stringers then move the boat to a heated garage and glass everything at one time. How does the drain plug housing come out?

[bens250ex]

Can someone explain the ski pole? Does this thing come apart? And I snapped the 4 bolts what was there purpose?

[bens250ex]

Also what kind of paint do i need to use to paint the bildge? after i finish glassing one day

[lively]

Drain plug - just knock it out with a hammer and socket , u will have to put a new one In , and drill a slanted valley for the new wood for rudder box and wake plate , they will come with one side flared and the other will be straight . Buy a 3/4 Bolt with a 1" outer dia nut with two washers ... Flip the nylon nut backwards to suck the non flanged side to flange against the new wood and finish with a ball peen hammer .. (5200) and seal her up ..

Ski pole , mine did not have one only the brace , but it was threaded so just torch it above 250 degrees and twist and shout !! Ha ha ... That should take it loose .. Believe it or not but if u heat it up and use a candle and rub it into the part u wanting loose it lubes it and helps break free .. Used that method several times on ball joints

Paint - Im going with bilge paint .. It's a hardened enamel and makes everything smooth like a bath tube .. EBay ! eBay ! eBay !!! Trust me I've saved hundreds so far ..


Pics ???

[bens250ex]

After today my thoughts are 1. Supra could not fiberglass back in the day/needed to fire the engineers that designed the stringers lol. 2. I'm sick of sanding and I hope and pray I finished up most of the sanding today. 3. I got a lot of fiberglassing ahead of me

[lively]

AND ..... D. He needs a beer and nasal spray lol

[bens250ex]

Haha lol I was going to have a beer......but I went with whiskey instead:)

[bens250ex]

couple questions

1. How do you post pics from your iphone?
2. What Impeller do i need for the water pump? i looked at Skidim but a lil confused on which one i need
3. is the fuel line 3/8"?
4. What size is the packing rope for the drive shaft?
5. What motor Rotation are these comps?

A few more questions may come if i can think of anything. i would post pics if i can get the iphone thing figured out.

[lively]

..photobucket app, upload from phone to app , copy / paste img code . only 4 at a time

.. sherwood / ebay / raw water pump impeller

.. fuel line 3/8 should do fine

.. dripless is the way to go

.. what is your serial numbers ? firing order ? pcm 351 winsor , cleavland ?

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/1227eda5.jpg. http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/d2d65b56.jpg. http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/c2ca6c90.jpg. http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/18b39ace.jpg

[bens250ex]

Yes one stringer is longer lol. Don't worry I'm adding a extra piece to even it up

[Okie Boarder]

Looks like you're making progress.

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/a271fab2.jpg. http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/ddf82612.jpg. http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/088dbf52.jpg. http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/05ce4f2b.jpg

[bens250ex]

Runnin low on epoxy will prob need a half gallon more. Ran out of cabosil today also. Found a place that has the west system here local for 145 which includes a gallon of resin and however much hardener. Also a place carries cabosil....... In a 10lb bag. I don't think I will need the much lol. Hopefully floor will be in by the time I have to go back to school. I might just use vinyl resin or poly to do the floor since I can get those local . I almost ordered another gallon of resin a couple weeks ago... Sure wish I did now

[Okie Boarder]

Even more progress...good job. Are those ribs actually connected the the hull on the far sides?

[bens250ex]

Yes are they suppose to?

[Okie Boarder]

I understood they are not supposed to...that's the advice I got and the way I did mine. Small points of contact along the hull can cause issues, was the reason.

[bens250ex]

ok well thats no prob i can just cut them away from the edge.

[bens250ex]

okie do you have any pics of your ribs?

[TitanTn]

Looking great. Are you going to be starting the deck soon?

[bens250ex]

hope to have deck fitted by mid next week, then decide on engine and trans. i am going to look at a ski supreme tomorrow that needs stringers. I want it for the engine and trans and maybe some other parts, not really interested in doing this job again. i still want to paint my engine and trans and maybe rebuild the trans since it out. The previous owner had some tranny fluid in the storage for some reason so i have a hunch its leakin.

Should i go with marine ply or what for the floor?

[bens250ex]

Few pics. I should have used the band saw to begin with http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/197876f5.jpg. Getting ready to glue http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/66384832.jpg. My helper I dragged into gettin dirty lol http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/edcfbdf6.jpg. Uhhhhhhhhh I can explain lol.

[bens250ex]

Ended up going to the gun show with a friend...and I bought this. Been lookin at pistols for a while finally but the bullet http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/ac6d830f.jpg back to what matters. Another pic before glue http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/c1eedc94.jpg last one http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/872f75a4.jpg stuff all glued in just got to glass some more then move on to engine and deck

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/872f75a4.jpg

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/9bf4c5d7.jpg

[bens250ex]

Dang I can't tell if the pics are workin

[TitanTn]

Your pics are working. From what I can see you're doing a lot better in the "help" department than most of us!

Plywood type for floors seems to be similar to the Chevy vs Ford debate. Everyone has an opinion. My opinion is that exterior grade plywood is plenty good enough if you cover it with enough fiberglass and resin. The goal is to encapsulate the wood so it never sees moisture. If that's done, marine grade is a waste of expense (again, this is my opinion).

[bens250ex]

That is what I needed to know . I'm going to cut the floor today still have a few things to glass but majority of it is done. I'll t
Post pics lasted today. Oh ya possible the parts boat which I need a questioned answered . Will a rudder set up off a 1987 ski supreme Sierra work on the comp? It looks as though it might work. It looks like most these boats are close in the design.

[Okie Boarder]

okie do you have any pics of your ribs?

Here's a pretty good shot after most all of them were in on one side.

Good looking helper!! You need to post more pics of her. ;-)

I went with exterior plywood, as well. It is my understanding the main difference between marine grade and other plywood is the glue. Marine uses the most water resistant glue so it helps keep the plies from delaminating if it gets wet. I coated all my wood in CPES to help minimize the effects of water. In addition, I put a layer of glass cloth (6 oz IIRC) on the bottom side and essentially two layers (Mat then cloth) on the top side.

[bens250ex]

Dang that looks good okie! Im tryin to get my helper to do some fiberglass today..... She Not really motivated lol. I just picked up some 10oz cloth for the floor and 2 gal of poly. I'm out of epoxy and no place local has it so poly will have to do

[Okie Boarder]

Thanks. I built the structure very stout, probably way overkill, but I wanted it to be like a tank for longevity and being able to handle the stresses of lots of ballast weight.

My helper didn't do much of the glassing, but she assisted in almost everything I did by helping hand me things and be a second person when I needed it. We had a great system when glassing where we would wet the glass on a "table" to prep several pieces and then I would be in the boat with her out of the boat handing me the pieces. When I was capping the stringers, I was using 54" width glass. The 54" became the lengths along the stringers and the width would be whatever it too to go up and over the stringer and overlap onto the hull, so there were some pieces that were in the ball park of 54" x 24". Imagine handling that piece all wet out by yourself. I have to say it was tough having her help me though. She's such a hottie I found myself getting distracted very easily. ;-)

[TitanTn]

... She's such a hottie I found myself getting distracted very easily. ;-)

Ha! That's why I have my kids help me! My wife would slow me down too much.

[bens250ex]

Here we go. http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/b9454728.jpg got some of floor cut http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/009edb99.jpg will this ever end? A crack I found on bottom of hull where rudder mounts http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/0fc170e2.jpg

[bens250ex]

Took a dremal and took it out then filled with resin and chop strand and sanded http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/7738dd79.jpg going to put some 1708 on it tomorrow

[Okie Boarder]

Good job repairing the crack. Make sure you maintain a gap between your deck plywood and the hull when you first put it in. Then fill that gap with a thickened resin and tab in the edges to the hull.

[bens250ex]

I brought something home today.... http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/0030818f.jpg. Bought it mainly for this, the rudder and assembly hopefully it'll work on mine http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/4ed643fb.jpg. http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/21f6cecd.jpg. Has full 351 indmar engine and velvet drive trans. Stringer and floor are shot. I will be yankin parts and prob trashing the hull. So if anyone needs anything that will fit your boat just let me know.

[Okie Boarder]

If it has a working blower, I might be interested in that.

[bens250ex]

It has blower when I get back home I'll pull it and test it and let you know

[bens250ex]

If it isn't one thing it's another... Update coming later

[bens250ex]

So like. Said never ending . Drive shaft strut is bent prob from the engine flexing since stringer were shot. Anyone got one I would be interested . I put a indicator on it to see how off it was . Cane out to be .60 off . So a lil more than half an inch
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/53b5a3ea.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/a8747755.jpg
I know it's hard to tell from pics what's going on but just thought I'd share. I also put the cap back on to test fit and next I will try to paint bilge do the exhaust and get the floor tabbed in

[TitanTn]

I wonder if it can be straightened. Props can be straightened, and so can prop shafts. It would make sense that the right shop could do this as well.

[bens250ex]

I thought about it but they will prob charge at least 50 bucks then I got to buy new bushings at 60 bucks so I wouldn't be far off from a new one. Plus it will be weaker I would think after being heated and so forth. But I could be wrong I prob need to call some place. Anyone know of a place capable of this? Or a big shop that does props?

[wotan2525]

It can be straightened. You need new bearings anyway so might as well have it all done at the same time. Marine Associates (now known as Croix Gear) is likely the OEM on those. They repaired mine and installed new bearings -- but I don't remember what they charged me. Worth calling them, I suppose.

http://www.croixgear.com/

[Okie Boarder]

You can definitely have the strut straightened.

[bens250ex]

Ok I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what they say thanks guys

[lively]

ah ha ! so it was bent , where did you wind up measuring ?

[bens250ex]

Lively when I pulled it off you could visually see that it was bent. But I put a dial indicator on the strut to see how bad it was off

[sybrmike]

I knew mine was bent before I started the rebuild & alignment was even worse after putting it all back together, so I had my strut straightened by big marine service shop down on the ship channel (~$50). I ended up having to "unstraighten" it a bit once installed in order to better center the shaft in the log bore.

[bens250ex]

would it just be better to get a new one? i mean i got to buy new bushings and they are 60 bucks anyways and i read on another site a guy ended spending 285 to get his straighten and new bushings in it when he could have got a new one for 190 from skidim with new bushings installed already.(and i got a 10% off coupon to skidim) It just seems the new one is the way to go ? Unless i can find a good unbent used one i will prob just get a new one. i might just mess around with mine at the shop and see if i can get it back close. Or Maybe i can get some money back for it at the scrap yard?

[bens250ex]

another thing is i would have to ship the strut since there is no place around here to do it so that would add another 30 to getting it "straighten".

[sybrmike]

If it's already screwed up - give it a shot, but be prepared - it's hell for stout. I "unstraightened" mine after it was already installed & the 5200 had set up (it was a late night & I forgot to check the bore alignment after tightening the bolts). I used a 7/8" piece of bar stock wrapped in tape (to protect the new bushings that were already installed), slid it in from the rear, crawled under the trailer and pulled, pried, & beat like a mofo. Thought I was gonna rip the bottom out of the boat - kept bending the bar, but finally got it to budge just enough.

[lively]

sybrmike - you must be a beast ! lol

ben- so i have be talking to ken helfrich over the phone about rudders ,interior , over all what he did ..

He said he heard in another forum that a guy was doing a power turn and the rudder box assembly broke off due to the rotted wood base that it is through bolted to, so he
took 1/4 '' plate and bent it in a U shape to lay in between the rear main stringers . Then he popped a hole and through bolted the plate to the stringers so that the rudder box would rely on the wood and the plate for strength , I haven't decided if im going to do the same, but sounds like a damn good idea A ..

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/0db25ab9.jpg

Dang cold weather is no fun I need to lay the floor in

[TitanTn]

Sorry if you've already mentioned this, but no under-floor foaming for you?

[bens250ex]

Nope no foam for me

[sybrmike]

Looks great! Personally, good call going the Seinfeld Foam Nazi route - No foam for you. All those nicely glassed limber holes should keep her breathing easy down below.

Are you gonna have a vertical piece spanning from outboard of the engine mounts up to the floor?

[bens250ex]

I wasn't but could add something if you think it is needed?

[TitanTn]

I've never seen anyone not include them, and I think it provides needed support for the floor (otherwise you're spanning a decent distance without any support at the ends).

[bens250ex]

Ill come up with something for floor support right there. Simple fix

[wotan2525]

Yes -- I had made up my mind to go foamless but couldn't get the floor "feel" solid enough without it. It does provide some kind of structure and sound deadening..... Not that it's necessary......

[bens250ex]

Some new pics . Went to put engine in and found the the motor mounts were frozen and wouldn't adjust. Wish I would have known sooner. Ordered new bushings last night hopefully engine will be in next weekend.

My new strut
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/4bf716b2.jpg


http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/a220e298.jpg

Still need to trim carpet
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/08e976a8.jpg

[lively]

ben looking good brother ! did you get the carpet off ebay ?

hows that rudder area turning out ?

[bens250ex]

yup got it ebay costed me like 80 bucks for all i needed. The rudder area came out good i suppose, i sanded it down flat and had one lil low spot ill prob fix but other than that it seems good. Just not pretty lol. I havent decided what im going to do for paint. I bought some stuff for doing the strips but the rest of the boat needs a paint job as well. I might just sand it and take it to a guy and let him spray it. I am going to wait to paint it till i get it out on the water and make sure everything is working right. I also ordered a new manifold and 800 gph automatic pump today. I would to start it next week end but well see where i get too.

I tried textin you several time lively but got no response.

[lively]

yeah my wife was proly shaking some bacon lol ... i get hungry too ya know ..... you can text me lol

try this website supermarinepaint.com SM1000 1 part polyurethane is what im using .. and i would start with 120 and work up to 400 .. sanding sucks thats all i have to say .. and i got a guy to spray it for 500 i just got to hit it again with 320 grit and then ill take it to him .. I would defiantly put some body filler if you have low or raised edges
on the lower of the hull .. that would add some drag to the boat and could result into and blister in the glass ... just sand it up and bend the plastic puddy spreader to get it even .. works well for my stress cracks and scratches ...

did you get the gun metal grey carpet ? if so how do you like the feel ?

[bens250ex]

yea its gunmetal grey it feels nice i like it. That damn outdoor carpet glue is a mess. I had to do my carpet with the cap sitting about 6" off the floor. It made doing the front a real pain in the ass.

the lower spot it right under the right side of the rudder mounting plate. Ill prob mix up some more resin/chop/cabosil and level it off.

How much paint is it going to take for yours?

[lively]

My hull is 19.6" without platform so I x that by the beam 8' x 0.85 = 133.28 bottom side square foot ..
I bought 1 gallon of white that covers 500 sq ft , 1 gallon of etching primer (grey) , 1 quart of etching primer ( red oxide) , 1 quart of med grey , and 1 quart of drangon fire orange ..
The sm1000 is supposted to be very forgiving and fill and shine out nice .
I read several reviews and talked to alot of people about paint .. This is what they all recommend ... So 1k paint job better look great! Lol


I got 30 ' of the gunmetal grey in my garage .. I'm using extra on my interior bases ..

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/9285c3a5.jpg

Finally in
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/52fb34d3.jpg

[TitanTn]

Way to go! Congrats. That's a big milestone.

[bens250ex]

Welp I had it on the water yesterday forgot to tighten the plug in the bottom where you drain oil, when I was going some water was coming in. It was really windy so i went back in, But I will have it out again soon I'm going to try and paint my stripes and so forth. I got 2 vids I'll try to post

[2002 LAUNCH SS OWNER]

When I rebuilt my last boat I used fir stringers, construction grade plywood, when I installed stringers I just notched them in places for water flow and preglassed the
stringers before I installed them. the plywood I also preglassed both sides before installing* As for flotation do not use expandle foam against the bottom of the hull as it just holds water* I used blue construction styrafoam like you would install against at concrete foundation. I cut pieces to fit against the hull but left air space underneath so any water that gets in can eventualy end up in bilge area and be pumped out.That is why port holes are so importent. After you place flloor buy a couple cans of expanding foam and spray it into air gap between floor and blue styrafoam, this presses foam firmly into place to prevent sqeaking noises and also helps support the floor.This method has worked well for me, styrafoam trick was recomended by a friend who is a Marine Engineer at Seaspan Tugs in North Vancouver BC. My only complaint would be that you hear the water lapping against the hull a liitle more than if void was completly filled with foam, but we all know how heavy a boat can become when flotation foam gets staurated with water*** As for cutting out old floor I have done this on 2 boats and I used a air chisel there is a gap between hull and plywood and airchisel goes thru it like butter,use a split spoon type chisel and try to angle spoon upwards while using it so you do not go thru hull** Use a bedding compound filler when you place your stringers then you can shape bedding with glass mat as you glass them in, this prevents air gaps between hull and stringer and gets rid of 90 dregree angle between hull and stringer. The bedding compound I used was called hedamite ( boat builders called in bear shit) they no longer sell hedamite as it contained asbestos, but here are other powders you can mix with resin available** Good Luck you will have a nice boat when you are done***

[lively]

When I rebuilt my last boat I used fir stringers, construction grade plywood, when I installed stringers I just notched them in places for water flow and preglassed the
stringers before I installed them. the plywood I also preglassed both sides before installing* As for flotation do not use expandle foam against the bottom of the hull as it just holds water* I used blue construction styrafoam like you would install against at concrete foundation. I cut pieces to fit against the hull but left air space underneath so any water that gets in can eventualy end up in bilge area and be pumped out.That is why port holes are so importent. After you place flloor buy a couple cans of expanding foam and spray it into air gap between floor and blue styrafoam, this presses foam firmly into place to prevent sqeaking noises and also helps support the floor.This method has worked well for me, styrafoam trick was recomended by a friend who is a Marine Engineer at Seaspan Tugs in North Vancouver BC. My only complaint would be that you hear the water lapping against the hull a liitle more than if void was completly filled with foam, but we all know how heavy a boat can become when flotation foam gets staurated with water*** As for cutting out old floor I have done this on 2 boats and I used a air chisel there is a gap between hull and plywood and airchisel goes thru it like butter,use a split spoon type chisel and try to angle spoon upwards while using it so you do not go thru hull** Use a bedding compound filler when you place your stringers then you can shape bedding with glass mat as you glass them in, this prevents air gaps between hull and stringer and gets rid of 90 dregree angle between hull and stringer. The bedding compound I used was called hedamite ( boat builders called in bear shit) they no longer sell hedamite as it contained asbestos, but here are other powders you can mix with resin available** Good Luck you will have a nice boat when you are done***Wait a minute ? lol Ben are you doing another stringer job ?

[bens250ex]

Wait a minute ? lol Ben are you doing another stringer job ?
That's not a no but a Hell NO! Lol my next boat will be all glass. I think fella is a lil late on postin but that's ok! Boat is goin to lake this weekend hopefully she runs good .

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/f67e45a8.mp4
She did backfire in beginning I had just ran it out of fuel

Spacer I had to make for dive line
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/7d8b43c6.jpg

Start of spacer
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/0469bc1f.jpg

Almost done
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/a1146dbc.jpg

[bens250ex]

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/b687bfc1.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/075c5fd9.jpg

Where she is now
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/97c3ad33.jpg

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/bens250ex/9236ecd2.jpg