Ballast: 3-Vein Pump Upgrade

[rkmfl]

I probably read a dozen posts on ballast upgrades in the forums, but I haven't read much on the 3-pump upgrade process specifically (using the 3 reversible vein pumps).

I've spoken with Jason @ WakeMakers about this and I'm about to move forward once I double-check with the members on the forum ... There are a few technicalities I cannot work out and I was hoping for some input from fellow Supra owners with more knowledge or experience.

My goal is to keep as much of the stock configuration as possible, as follows:

I'd like to use the stock Thru-Hull pickup (no new holes) >>to>> Shutoff Ball-Valve >>to>> Water Filter >>to>> the original 3-way "T" manifold strapped to the transmission, and here's where the stock setup would end.

From the original 3-way manifold, I'd run hoses to the 3 reversible vein pumps.

Now I realize that some people have said you need to drill 3 separate thru-hull fittings (one for each pump) to accomodate the volume, but I've researched the capacities of a 1-to-1.25" pipe, and it should be enough to supply the 30 GPM volume with mild pressure. Keep in mind that internally those pumps are plumbed as 1/2" which has an effective opening of roughly 0.20". The 1" hose is 4 times larger at roughly 0.80" area. I'm assuming the stock thru-hull in the Supra is a 1 or 1.25", does anyone know for sure? (BTW - I have a 2005 Launch 21V).

So that's my first question -- do you believe that a single thru-hull will be enough to supply all three pumps @ roughly 30gpm (which academically appears to be true), and whether that stock thru-hull is a 1 or 1.25" fitting?

2. Where would you choose to mount the pumps? I've only owned ski-boats (direct drive) in the past, so I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to place the pumps alongside the ballast bags themselves, or whether this creates undo wear/overheating/etc.

3. It seems like we'd need to upgrade the wiring, to power these vein pump (12 Amp each @12vdc, I belive). If my assumption is correct, the new pumps should require 10-12 gauge wire, which is much larger than what I believe is running to the Sprinkler Valve solenoid's.

Is this a valid assumption, and if so, would that mean that I have to run new wiring all the way from the battery, to the ballast switches, to the pumps? And would I keep the same ballast switches for the reversible pumps, or would I have to get new switches as well?

4. There are 3 different options for the rear locker bags. There are the FlyHigh's at 50x20x20 (750 lbs) or 50x24x24 (1,100 lbs) and the SUMO at 50x22x22 (900 lbs). Most people have used the 750 it seems, is this the best option to stick with?

I'm sure no one will have the answers to all of these points, but any feedback you might have would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you in advance,
RKM

[wotan2525]

When you say 3-vein pumps are you talking about simer/ballast puppy type pumps?

In that case... (or for any pump that takes that many amps) you'd be foolish to run that much switched 10 gauge wire. These suckers should FOR SURE be run on relays.

[sybrmike]

1. I don't know what boat or size thru hull you have. In talking with Jason on my system, I went with a single 1-1/4" thru hull tee'd for two Johnson impeller pumps. I think you'll be pushing the flow limit with 3 pumps - no harm done, just may take a little longer to fill/drain.

2. I'm a DD, so no help there. Although I've read it's a good idea to mount them so that they're at a low point in the line so that some water is trapped around the impeller to help keep them lubed on start up. They need air to stay cool & mount them with the pump on the bottom if going vertical.

3. If you're wiring pumps directly to the switches, then yes 10-12 ga wiring depending on the length of runs. Some have no problems this way, but I've read several posts where pumps not reversing or popping fuses were fixed by using relays to switch the power as Wotan stated. Don't know what switches you have, but to run the reversible impeller pumps you need DPDT switches (normally 7 spade connectors on the back side if illuminated).

4. DD, so no help here either.

Does anyone know of a single relay that can switch the reversible pumps? I've only found system diagrams with two relays per pump.

[wotan2525]

Relays are cheap. There are DPDT relays available but it will add complications. I thought some of the impeller pumps had relays built into the housing?

[jclose8]

Flexible impeller, reversible pumps are SLOW..... Unless you are REALLY opposed to it, I'd opt for a aerator pump system.

[rkmfl]

This is truly excellent information so far, thank you. In reply:

To reply regarding: Your suggestion of using an aereator pump (eg TSUNAMI 1200) for improved filling speed, versus the heavy-duty "vein pumps".

The problem is that I don't think I'd get any extra speed out of it, because I'm only planning on running the *single* stock thru-hull pickup (which I'm hoping is 1.25). Unless ... members here on the forum advise against it.

However, the greatest concern I have over using the TSUNAMI's is -- it sounds like they need check-valves to share the same intake, plus I'd need a separate pump for fill-vs-draining.

Regarding: Using relays rather than straight wiring.

That sounds like a lot of extra complexity to add the relays, especially because of the reverse polarity switching requirement.

I found the Johnson manual on Jason's site: http://media.wakemakers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/johnson-ultra-ballast-pump-installation-instructions.pdf -- it seems these reversible pumps only run about 10a @ 12vdc, which would really require 12 gauge from the switches to the pumps.

I suppose I'd run a heavier gauge to the switches (I'm not sure what Skier's Choice ran between the battery and the stock switches with the original V1 Gravity Ballast system).

I could not find any vein-pumps that have relays built into the housing like Wotan mentioned.

Argh, I think I'm getting over my head. It's starting to sound easier to avoid vein-pumps, which is the opposite of my original thinking.

This leads me to a new question:

Question 5. Does anyone know what is Skier's Choice using on the new boats, are they going directly from the G-III ballast switches, to the TSUNAMI pumps?

TSUNAMI's are starting to sound more appealing:

POSITIVES?
- Faster
- Less complex wiring (requires less amperage?)
- Can hear when the bags are empty (drains out of separate tube)
- Less expensive (2x $40 + Extra fittings -vs- 1x $170)
- Runs dry w/o problems & less expensive replacement?

NEGATIVES?
- Requires TWO pumps per bag (rather than one)
- Requires check valve
- Lose the ability to have vent-line for bags?

Does this sound valid, or does anything think I'm missing anything?

Question 6. One new question for everyone .. How do you determine whether your ballasts are empty if using reversible pumps? Do you have to open the lockers every time to check? On these new boats with digital gauges (the 7" monitors that show ballast fill levels), do they use flow-meters or something?

I've never been able to get hands-on with these expensive new boats with the fill-monitors, but it sounds like it would really make things easy for my wife.

After all, keeping things easy for the wife makes it easier for me to stay on the water!! You see how that goes :-).

[sybrmike]

There are pros & cons of each system to be sure & looks like you've summed it up well. Basically as I see it, aerators are more complicated to plumb correctly & impellers are more difficult to wire correctly.

#6 - you can tell when bags are full or empty on an impeller pump when the whine from the pump changes pitch.

[rkmfl]

Okay, so it sounds like the pumps are very loud in that case. This is good to know, thank you.

How do you think the new systems determine the percentage the ballasts have filled? For example, you can set them up to fill each ballast to, for example, 50%. How do they determine 50% fill-rate? Is it a simple guestimate based on time-filling, or do they use something more sophisticated?

[jclose8]

True that it is two pumps per bag rather than one, but you are also talking about 2 $30 pumps (Tsunami (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=attwood+tsunami&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=2975158220346134908&sa=X&ei=sbwuTq6qHsTEsQKmn8BU&ved=0CHUQ8wIwBg)) rather than $183 (Jabsco Ballast Puppy (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=jabsco+ballast+puppy&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=548123925974046397&sa=X&ei=Br0uTv-pOdTFsQKsrMVf&ved=0CFMQ8wIwAA))

Also, as I mentioned, the speed difference is significant. The Jabsco is 9gpm, or 540 GPH. The Tsunami is 1200 GPH. More than double.

Regardless of the size of wire you use, you WILL need relays. The switch itself won't be able to handle the current that a Jabsco draws. If you insist on running the reversible flexible impeller pumps, here is how you wire the switches and relays:

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/82232.jpg

Another advantage of aerator pumps is that they can run dry without damage.

I've built both types of systems, so I am speaking from experience, not opinion. Here is the flexible impeller system I built: Ballast System 1 (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86896)

Ballast System #2 (http://forums.wakeboarder.com/viewtopic.php?t=43884)

[rkmfl]

Jamie,
In my reply, I was agreeing with your post and I believe I've stated all of your points in my positive-v-negative summary.

The #2 link you sent appears to go to: http://www.rivalindustry.com/download.htm -- however, that site does not appear to be online any longer. Can you post more information on what you were thinking?

Also, I'm not sure if you read the entire reply, but my remaining concerns with using aerator pumps being that I'll only have *one* thru-hull intake, and I don' believe there will be any speed difference when running 3 pumps off that single intake.

I'm not sure, but there may also be other issues with running aerator pumps on a shared-intake, being that they do not hold the water like the vein/reversible pumps?

I can tell your suggestion is based on experience, I'm just trying to curtail that suggestion to my situation where I'd like to keep a single intake.

Thanks again for the great info!
-RKM

[jclose8]

Jamie,
In my reply, I was agreeing with your post and I believe I've stated all of your points in my positive-v-negative summary.

The #2 link you sent appears to go to: http://www.rivalindustry.com/download.htm -- however, that site does not appear to be online any longer. Can you post more information on what you were thinking?

Also, I'm not sure if you read the entire reply, but my remaining concerns with using aerator pumps being that I'll only have *one* thru-hull intake, and I don' believe there will be any speed difference when running 3 pumps off that single intake.

I'm not sure, but there may also be other issues with running aerator pumps on a shared-intake, being that they do not hold the water like the vein/reversible pumps?

I can tell your suggestion is based on experience, I'm just trying to curtail that suggestion to my situation where I'd like to keep a single intake.

Thanks again for the great info!
-RKM

The #2 link you sent appears to go to: http://www.rivalindustry.com/download.htm -- however, that site does not appear to be online any longer.

Rival is out of business. I based my system on their concept. If you read the rest of the thread, I go into detail with diagrams, photos, links to online suppliers and explanations. It's possible that you can't see the pictures unless you are logged in to Wakeboarder.com, so you may have to create a profile if you don't have one.

Also, I'm not sure if you read the entire reply, but my remaining concerns with using aerator pumps being that I'll only have *one* thru-hull intake, and I don' believe there will be any speed difference when running 3 pumps off that single intake. I did read the reply.... There is no problem with that. An inch and quarter intake will provide 3 pumps with unlimited water... ESPECIALLY if you use a scoop intake (which you should). If you really want to speed things up, drive the boat while filling.

I'm not sure, but there may also be other issues with running aerator pumps on a shared-intake, being that they do not hold the water like the vein/reversible pumps? Nope. No issues whatsoever.

[rkmfl]

First, to DOCDRS - based on the other posts, it sounds like you have a 3x JABSCO system, is that correct? Are you running these on relays like Jaime mentioned? If not, have you found something that's allieviated the issue (heavy-duty switches, etc?)

Jaime - Thank you for the reply re:Aerator pumps. I did read everything, but did not see the graphics becaus I'm not a member. I've signed-up, but have to wait for admin approval before I can use it.

I'm still not sure what size the stock intake is on the Launch 21v. Once I get it back from the shop, I can have a look. It sounds like a 1" might not support the TSUNAMI's but from what you've said, the 1.25" will be fine.

Another option that is inexpensive for the Aerator, would be something more like a stock-upgrade. For example, a 3800GPH RULE + Irritrol 700's to replace the valves.

This is the least expensive of all options, and would allow me to avoid some of the issues I'm worried about with Aerator pumps (eg- vent loops). What are your thoughts on this?

Thank you in advance!
RKM

[docdrs]

Flexible impeller, reversible pumps are SLOW..... Unless you are REALLY opposed to it, I'd opt for a aerator pump system.

I disagree.....http://www.moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=14074

However, if i didn't have the jabsco system I would seriously consider this http://www.moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=10193


.

[docdrs]

First, to DOCDRS - based on the other posts, it sounds like you have a 3x JABSCO system, is that correct? Are you running these on relays like Jaime mentioned? If not, have you found something that's allieviated the issue (heavy-duty switches, etc?)

Jaime - Thank you for the reply re:Aerator pumps. I did read everything, but did not see the graphics becaus I'm not a member. I've signed-up, but have to wait for admin approval before I can use it.

I'm still not sure what size the stock intake is on the Launch 21v. Once I get it back from the shop, I can have a look. It sounds like a 1" might not support the TSUNAMI's but from what you've said, the 1.25" will be fine.

Another option that is inexpensive for the Aerator, would be something more like a stock-upgrade. For example, a 3800GPH RULE + Irritrol 700's to replace the valves.

This is the least expensive of all options, and would allow me to avoid some of the issues I'm worried about with Aerator pumps (eg- vent loops). What are your thoughts on this?

Thank you in advance!
RKM

Mine is the oem GIII and I believe there is an ingrated relay timer autoshutoff module for each pump beside beside it. All 3 of my pumps and timer/relay/auto off are mounted at the back of the port locker.

Note you can only use a scupper if you have a valve system such as the irritrol or sprinkler valves

[jclose8]

I disagree.....http://www.moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=14074

However, if i didn't have the jabsco system I would seriously consider this http://www.moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=10193


.

Good info!! I hadn't seen either of those threads. My comparison was actually to simer pumps, not Jabscos. Maybe jabscos are quite a bit faster.

I like those straight through sprinkler valves too. The design of most valves is exactly why I use the main RV valve. Most sprinkler valves have a tremendous amount of restriction.

[rkmfl]

DOCDRS - This is excellent information, thank you. I've probably spent an hour on the Moomba forum after you mentioned it, there is a lot of great information over there on ballasts.

I'm going to contact SC and determine whether there is a part-number to your ballast relay/timer box. If so, I'd be able to purchase that and run a much cleaner system.

Based on one of the threads someone linked earlier in this thread, JesseC's super-pump ballast idea (3800 GPH Rule Aereator pump + 1.25" Pipe Manifold + Irritrol 700 (UltraFlow) Valves) would require 9.33 minutes, where as the three JABSCO's require 4.84 minutes.

Once you boil everything else down, it sounds like it's a simple decision between two options:
GIII Imitation - 3 JABSCO/Johnson pumps w/Relay controller
Upgraded Manifold - Larger Aerator pump + Better Sprinkler Valves

The trick to determining whether the GIII is the way to go, depends on the price/availability of that relay box that comes stock with the GIII system, so that it can be done correctly. Also, whether the Johnson pumps include that new "Run Dry" circuit the Jabscos have, which protects the impeller.

On a side-note, I noticed Moomba owners get a discount @WakeMakers. Is there a special Supra owner's coupon code as well, heheh?

Thank you in advance for any thoughts,
-RKM

[docdrs]

you can get the moomba code supra is a SC product....join the forum and list your boat....call jason at wakemakers , if you can get ahold of him and see if the relay he sells has the auto shut off

[rkmfl]

My direct-drive boat (which I have not yet sold) is a Moomba and I've been a long-time member of the forum. My Supra Launch is my new upgrade.

I was only referring to the coupon code they have, for "Moomba Owners", half joking, that they should have a "Supra Owners" too!

I'm hoping to buy the same relay assembly you have from SC rather than buying those from WakeMakers. I'll buy everything else from them, but I prefer the stock electronics depending on the pricing.

At this point, I'm leaning towards the 3x Johnson reversible pumps. I'm still not sure whether they have the "run dry" protection the new Jabsco's have, however.