Saltare,454 is Idling rough, doesn't stay running.

[ruby23m]

Past few times out on the Saltare she has been running rough at idle, pulsing is the best way to describe from
400-1000 RPM when its warmed up, not cold. Usually just kills when put into gear. Oil was a bit low, had to add 1.5 quarts, but I don't have much of a reason to think thats the problem. Oil pressure was fine, temp fine as well. As a temporary fix to stay running I adjusted the throttle cable to achieve 1000rpm at idle, but still pulsing. I know the engine hasn't had a tune up in at least 3 years, this is my third summer owning the boat and my first issue concerning how it runs, Please HeLP!

[skiman_61]

Check the timing and other than that it sounds like you need a tune up. Replace the distributor cap, get rid of the points if you still have them and go with a condenser free ignition. New wire and plugs you'll be in good shape. Mine is an '87 454. Mallory distributor and a Holly carb.

[wotan2525]

I agree. A tune-up is a good place to start. You may be experiencing a carb or a fuel issue, as well -- but let's get the electrical in order, first.

I'd also change your fuel filter, top off with good gas and make sure the electric choke is functioning.

[michael hunter]

If it was ignition it would act up cold as well. Sounds like a blown power valve. I would start with a carb overhaul.

[rludtke]

If it was ignition it would act up cold as well. Sounds like a blown power valve. I would start with a carb overhaul.

I agree. Have you ever experienced a back-fire? The Powervalves on some, possibly all Holley 4160 carburators can be damaged by backfires. Wether you have or haven't, a carb overhaul would be my first action.

[ruby23m]

No backfires to speak of. I'm nearly clueless about how to work on the 454 and the holley carb being this is my first problem with it, that means time to start learning! What exactly does a carb overhaul entail?

[rludtke]

The Holley 4160 is quite simple really. The overhaul kit replaces all of the components subject to common wear. The fuel carries a lot of micro-abrasives in it, and it wears out parts. Some of these parts are very sensitive to this wear, so overhauling a carberator is actually a necisary routine maintenance requirement.

Essentially, you will remove the float bowls and replace the needle and seat assemblies, the accelerator pump, the power valve, and a number of gaskets and seals. The exploded view diagram linked below will help. Keep track of what you remove, and replace the parts you remove that have new versions in the kit. The kit will include more parts than you need, so don't freek when you have parts left over in the kit. The metering block comes off to access the power valve. After removing the bowl bolts, they are only held on by the gaskets. They may not come off without a little effort. Be sure to clean away any remnant gasket material.

By a can of carb cleaner from the auto parts store, and use it to soak the parts that you remove (and do not replace), as well as the throttle bores of the carb. Rinse with hot water, and let dry, or blow dry if you have a compressor. Careful though, many of the parts are small.

Oh, and be extra careful with the clips that hold the floats on the shaft, they are tiny, and they seem to want to fly.

This is your carburator: http://holley.com/0-80319-1.asp
This is the overhaul kit: http://holley.com/703-47.asp
This is Holley's technical library: http://holley.com/TechService/Library.asp
This is an exploded view of the 4160: http://holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/4150%204160%20Exploded%20View.pdf
This is the float adjustment procedure for the 4160 (follow the Duracon (plastic) procedure): http://holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/4150%204160%20Exploded%20View.pdf


The rebuild is actually very intuitive, you shouldn't have any trouble. The overhaul kit commonly retails for about $50-$75 at NAPA or other mainstream retailers. I have found them for $25 on Ebay stores.

Good luck,

[wotan2525]

Rick -- This might be a dumb question, but can you rebuild these without removing them from the intake manifold?

[scottchapin]

Great post and links, doing mine Sunday. Thanks

[rludtke]

Rick -- This might be a dumb question, but can you rebuild these without removing them from the intake manifold?

Yes. I bucket carb overhauls into three categories: 1) simple parts swap, 2) Complete disassembly, clean, replace parts 3) Complete disassembly, clean, replace parts, and restore shafts and bushings to tolerances, etc etc.

A simple parts swap can be done in the boat, on the water (i've done this many, many times). You do not need to disassemble beyond the bowls and metering block to replace the parts that come in the overhaul kit. These carburators do not have external float level adjustmers, so I have had to open the bowls repeatedly out on the water to fine tune my float levels.

If performing the simple parts swap procedure on the boat, carry an old plastic water bottle with a sealable cap to capture the fuel drained from the bowl. Carry some paper towels to stuff below the carb to capture anything missed by the bottle. You will spill a little fuel, but try to minimize this the best you can. Drain the fuel out of one of the lower float bowl bolt holes. When you remove the bolt, fuel will pour...

If you spill some fuel into the bilge, wipe it up, and be sure to give the boat some time with the engine cover open to ventilate.

The barrels and butterflies are an area that gets dirty, and could benefit from the cleaning. For this you would have to remove the carb.

The butterfly shafts and bushings wear (feel for exsessive side to side or up and down shaft play). When worn enough, un-metered air can leak through, generating a leaner mixture. The shafts and bushings are purchaseable and replaceable. For this, removal of the carb would be neccisary.

[ruby23m]

I agree. Have you ever experienced a back-fire? The Powervalves on some, possibly all Holley 4160 carburators can be damaged by backfires. Wether you have or haven't, a carb overhaul would be my first action.

Pretty sure I figured out was wrong. The butterfly was staying closed at idle so I sprayed the moving parts with carb cleaner and ran the engine with the hose hooked up for 20 minutes just to make sure there was no more pulsing. I adjusted the throttle linkage back to normal and reset the idle speed. I advanced the throttle several times in neutral and dropped back to idle speed- no hesitation, no killing. Although I did not engage into gear, I do believe the problem is fixed! I did replace the fuel filter according to wotan's advice. Since I had some water in the bilge I decided to clean it up a bit with some soap in order to try and find where the oil was leaking. Just as I had thought, the oil pan drain plug was loose... I could turn it with my fingers. Took me a solid 20 minutes to figure out was size wrench to get on the plug and squeeze my hand down there. Not sure how that got loose! Thank you to everyone who chimed in to help. My next question is, whats the best way to drain the oil? I've twice used pumps that suck it out the dipstick, but it takes forever. Any suggestions?

[skiman_61]

My '87 has a hose attached to the pan that reaches the forward bilge drain. Handy thing, that. I would otherwise use a pump.

Removing the filter I use plastic bags and disposable latex gloves. Still makes a bit of a mess.

Glad to hear that you were able to remedy the other problem without major headaches.

Jack

[wotan2525]

I added a remote drain oil drain hose once when I rebuilt. Until you do that you have no option but to suck out the dipstick.

[Salty87]

I've twice used pumps that suck it out the dipstick, but it takes forever. Any suggestions?

are you warming the engine/oil first?

[cadunkle]

Do your drain hoses actually work? Mine is just about worthless. Warm engine, open the drain hose and it only drains half the oil out even messing with trailer jack to change angle. I just use my suction pump.

[wotan2525]

I use my suction pump on the end of my drain hose. Or let it sit in the catch pan overnight.

[skiman_61]

Yes, my drain hose works great. I was skeptical about the thing as I'd never seen one (I was raised on outboards). I do let it drain for a good while, and I change the pitch of the trailer to make sure I get a good purge.

[ruby23m]

Well I had the boat out yesterday and thought it was running right for a while, then similar problems again. Would run fine cruising, but when dropping to idle for a no wake zone it would sputter out and kill on me again. So, I just ordered a carb kit on eBay for $34, hopefully I can take apart and put back together accordingly! I plan on using my GoPro HD camera on my head while I take it apart so I have no excuse on how to put it back together!

[ruby23m]

Had the boat out yesterday despite not being able to find any time to rebuild the carb yet. Had to get out to enjoy the mid 80 temps in September. Started and ran fine for 20 minutes, dropped down to idle speed for a no wake zone, almost instantly kills. Won't start right away, but did after that 5-10 minutes, made it a few hundred feet before I could start to sense it dying again, so I gave it some throttle as it started sputtering and was able to pump the throttle back and forth (remember I'm in a no-wake zone so not over 1200rpm) to get me to the beach, barely. Is this a fuel pump issue? Its seeming like it simply loses fuel pressure when I let off, but is fine when cruising or even keeping RPM above 1500.

[wotan2525]

Sounds like fuel starvation, so it could be carb. When was the last time you replaced your fuel/water seperator or the filter? Those are easy places to start.

How much do you have to crank the boat to get it started cold? Are you running a mechanical fuel pump or an electric one? Mine has an electric fuel pump but I don't know if that was an aftermarket add-on or not.

[ruby23m]

Hey Rob, yeah I replaced the fuel/water seperator last week. Is the fuel filter the same thing? Starting it cold it turns over almost right away. I think I have a mechanical fuel pump, you might have an aftermarket. Based on the fact that I could keep it running by pumping the throttle at slow speeds makes me believe it may have something to do with the pump. As I type I am in the process of taking apart the carb, and I did notice that there was fuel in both bowls, about the same amount spilled out of each. Not sure if that helps at all. When I had it out last I ran it half throttle from the St. Croix Bluffs launch to Kinnnikinick so about 2 miles, dropped it to idle speed for the no wake zone and died about 50 ft later. Would a faulty fuel pump allow me to run at high speed no problem, but then when dropping to idle cause it to kill? Beats me... update when I hopefully put back together the carb.

[wotan2525]

You got me.... I don't know too much about carbs, but the fuel pumps seem to either work or they don't work. I'd start by refreshing the carb and see where that gets you. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

[lively]

Ruby23m- If it was me i would start buy checking fuel pressure at the pump (6.5 psi hot) (8.0 psi cold), and work your way up the line to the carb , if you have old lines that can cause them to restric flow , then check it at the carb , (best way to do it would be to run it on your garden hose in the driveway , and watch the gauge as to apply throttle , remember they are lift pumps and those diaphams wear out , another way to permently fix it would be to install a inline electric fuel pump with a regulator ... I mean visually look into the carb barrels and see how its spraying , but my guess would be the lift pump .... good luck