Cheap or homemade heater?

[cadunkle]

With cold weather upon us I'm thinking about adding a heater to the Saltare. I normally push through mid-late October but this year I have a good 4/3 suit so I'm thinking late November, maybe December.At that point I'd likely be draining the block and manifolds after each session, but such is life. A heater would make it a lot more pleasant. The heatercraft units look decent but are around $400 (I think) for a 3 outlet. I'm thinking it wouldn't be hard to buy a heater core and make a box out of sheet metal. Would have to figure out a blower motor, and I'm sure I can come up with some hose to attach to the box to make a few outlets/hoses to use.

Has anyone done this before? The biggest uncertainty is a blower motor and how to mount it. I was considering scavenging something from a car out of the junkyard for a motor and wheel/housing to push air. What do you guys think? Any cheaper off the shelf units? Try building it myself? Just considering options and cost at this point.

[beast 496]

Ducted Heater Kit by Heater Craft

Part #HCT47-0760-U200H Quantity:
Update $167.99
Check out, http://www.4wd.com/Heating-And-Cooling/Ducted-Heater-Kit-by-Heater-Craft-for-Jeep.aspx?t_c=84&t_s=519&t_pt=3419&t_pl=103955&t_pn=HCT47-0760-U200H

I have used several of these units, They are great. You can utilize the vents also out of the blower manifold box. Does not include hose or fitings, but you can buy locally cheap. Use 3" blower hose for the ductwork.
Good luck Al

[cadunkle]

Cool. I found one by another company for a similar price that seems to have a larger heater core and another outlet.

http://racewayparts.com/ah457.aspx

Winter riding will probably just be 3 of us in the boat when I'm lucky enough to get a crew, so 1 vent for each person would be good. I'm already having trouble getting people to come out because "it's cold" so I'm thinking a heater might be what it takes to make sure I have a crew.

So what's the best way to attach these things? For plumbing I was thinking traditional hose out of the intake right before the thermostat, and for the return I was thinking about splicing in before the raw water pump... Hoping to get good flow even at idle. Is this the best way to do it? What are the alternatives for plumbing?

For mounting, my thoughts are to put it up under the dash, maybe mounted right below the little cubby on the right of the bow walkthrough. My Perfect Pass is mounted there but I can move it if there's not enough room. I figure mounted long side vertical with the heater in/out low so it'll drain easily. What about vents? I'd hate to cut up the boat. I'm thinking just have 3 long sections of hose tucked up under the dash and just grab them when needed. Alternatively maybe I could keep one hose under the dash and two on the observer seat base? Cut a hole in the base so the hose can be pulled through? I don't know, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself but just thinking of ideas.

[cadunkle]

Also, what about running a hotter thermostat? I run a 145* now which wouldn't kick off a huge amount of heat. I stay well above the saltwater line so not too worried about that. It's a PCM 454 and my thermostat is not a normal one but rather the goofy long one.

I use this: http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RP026003

Will this one work? It looks similar but different ... http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RP026001

[sybrmike]

No experience with boat heaters, although we did use a hot water shower set-up to fill our wetsuits many boats back.

There are very few options for tstats to fit the original housing on the PCM 454 and they are pricey. Like the description in your second link says, you can turn down standard automotive tstats to fit - cheaper and more temp options. My old tstat was shot and a housing nipple was cracked, so I sprung for the extra $ and got the updated housing that uses standard tstats.

http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RK025026

It works fine, but be aware that the location of the raw water and water pump hose locations are swapped with the nipples for the manifold lines. This puts the larger O.D. hoses at the front and clearance is tight with the alternator belt. I had to modify the hose support clamp to avoid any rubbing. The old hoses may not have lined up properly either, but I was cutting all new hoses anyway. Just another option for you.

[chrisk]

Beast, in the description of the unit you posted it says it comes with 12 feet of hose. Were you referring to a different hose when you said it doesn't come with it? I've been wanting to do this for quite a while but don't know much about them, might make for a great winter project.

[cadunkle]

I think it comes with 12' of 5/8" heater hose (water) but does not come with the 3" air hose (blower hose) you would use for the hot air.

[chrisk]

I see, that makes sense.

[beast 496]

I believe it does come with the vent hose, nice black vent hose. I know they don't come with water hose, however it does come with the three speed switch and wiring. As for the thermostat, 160* is standard, and if you want boosted heater performance, add a 12volt circulation/water pump. 3.3 gpm works great. This allows for greater water circulation or you can tap into the intake manifold plug for +water flow and then dump the -pressure prior to the raw water pump. This creates an excellant flow of water and great heat. Good luck Al

[cadunkle]

My thermostat is 145* and normal engine temps around 150*, so would need a higher thermostat to get much heat. I've run cars with 160* thermostats when running high compression on the ragged edge of detonation on pump gas... Not much heat.

Out of curiosity, is there room under the doghouse for a heat exchanged and closed coolant system?

[stinky_1]

You deff want to put your outlet from the heater into a fitting BEFORE your raw water pick up. This will create all the flow you want without needing a pump of any sort. Hope that helps.

I was looking at a heater core out of a Chev Safari. the one that is for the rear heater. Its an all in one unit as well. But I didnt look close at the dimensions. That one posted for $169 would be a good way to go too.

You may also consider adding a hot water shower. If your running wet suits you just throw that on and fill the suit with hot water. WHen your done your run fill it with hot water again, then run hot water on your feet to warm them up before you get back in the boat. That got our season right up until it started snowing.

[cadunkle]

Good idea on the shower. It's definitely wet suit season the past couple times out, and it would be great to quickly warm up hands and feet. I see a Heatercraft shower for $300 on Skidim... Any good DIY alternative? Basically for this season I'm looking at either a heater or a shower, don't think I can justify both at the moment unless I figure a way to do them on the cheap.

On the heater I think I may go with the cheaper 3 outlet box I mentioned. I have a drain fitting with NPT threads between my raw water pump and trans cooler, so basically I'm just looking at additional cost of heater hose, two NPT fittings, and some blower hose to bring the heat to where I want it, and maybe a mounting bracket of some sort that I can probably make from some scrap I have laying around, so maybe a little over $200.

I should be on the river in the morning. Forecast is for air temps 51* and water temps 65* if that's to be believed, last time out the water was about 60*. Should be incentive for me to order some heater parts.

[stinky_1]

When I built my system I got one of these pumps

http://www.princessauto.com/all-seasons/seasonal/pumps/electric/8171118-12v-marine-utility-pump

then I bought a shower head from Home Depot with a 10' hose on it. I just cut the threaded part on the end of the shower head off and attached it to some more hose to reach the back of the boat.

Use a Y splitter like this

8027

Where you see the water tap is where you would put the pump. Each leg of the splitter should go to hot or cold water source. I tapped off the block for hot water, and put a T into my water line in between the impeller and the water pump on the motor. You put your shower head on the other side of the pump. For the first try you will need access to that Y fitting. You need to adjust the levers on there to get your water temp set. Mix the hot and cold until its how you like it. Then you just need a switch for the pump. Turn it on when you want the shower to go, and off when you dont.

There may be a bit of syphoning of the water if you have the whole plumbing system mounted low. A loop that goes up high under the side of the boat will help negate this.

If you find that pump cheap enough you can build the whole system for under $100.

The thing to think of here is that a shower is GREAT for everyone who is getting in the water. We all loved it, and it helped us a TON with getting in and out of the water when it was so cold. The problem is that a heater would have been nice for when we were NOT wet yet, but still cold. We were driving the boat with a full winter coat, Toque and snowboarding gloves. I am sure it was a sight to see!

[cadunkle]

You're making me feel silly for calling it quits last season in October. I want to push this year through Nov. I'll suck it up but I have difficulty finding a driver and spotter, and when the water gets to 50* nobody but me wants to get in. Not that I really want to get in, it's just necessary! lol

[cadunkle]

What about heated seats? I see these waterproof seat heaters that could be pretty nifty.

http://www.amazon.com/WarmSeats-WSHW-Waterproof-Seat-Heater/dp/B00355MTEW

I would figure one in drivers seat and another in the spotters seat would cover me for the colder months. Anyone done something like this? Any probs needing a larger alt? Looks like 5 amps per heater, so 10 additional amps. Seems like it would be a pain having a wire coming out of the seat bottom, but I would put some sort of weatherproof plug on it so I could still remove the seat bottom quickly. I've only been in a car with heater seats once, and I remember wondering why my ass was on fire... So I'm thinking this would feel great to sit on with chilly air and getting out of cold water.

[wotan2525]

When I built my system I got one of these pumps

http://www.princessauto.com/all-seasons/seasonal/pumps/electric/8171118-12v-marine-utility-pump

then I bought a shower head from Home Depot with a 10' hose on it. I just cut the threaded part on the end of the shower head off and attached it to some more hose to reach the back of the boat.

Use a Y splitter like this

8027

Where you see the water tap is where you would put the pump. Each leg of the splitter should go to hot or cold water source. I tapped off the block for hot water, and put a T into my water line in between the impeller and the water pump on the motor. You put your shower head on the other side of the pump. For the first try you will need access to that Y fitting. You need to adjust the levers on there to get your water temp set. Mix the hot and cold until its how you like it. Then you just need a switch for the pump. Turn it on when you want the shower to go, and off when you dont.

There may be a bit of syphoning of the water if you have the whole plumbing system mounted low. A loop that goes up high under the side of the boat will help negate this.

If you find that pump cheap enough you can build the whole system for under $100.

The thing to think of here is that a shower is GREAT for everyone who is getting in the water. We all loved it, and it helped us a TON with getting in and out of the water when it was so cold. The problem is that a heater would have been nice for when we were NOT wet yet, but still cold. We were driving the boat with a full winter coat, Toque and snowboarding gloves. I am sure it was a sight to see!


My local farm supply shop sells those exact same 12v pumps for $49.99. Have never seen them online that cheap and it would work great for a heater!

[wotan2525]

You deff want to put your outlet from the heater into a fitting BEFORE your raw water pick up.

I'm confused. Could someone draw a diagram of how to hook up these heater cores? Before the water pick-up?! Do you mean before the water pump??

[FoiltechLaunch21V]

Cheap and simple!!! This has worked for me on my last 3 boats and a few pieces of earth moving equipment that I have. Get two 3" blowers mount them in the engine compartment connect 3" pvc pipe and fittings to where ever you want the heat to go. I buy the pull out vents from skidim.com for added convenience. You are basically drawing heat from the engine block/exhaust manifold itself. Once my boat has been running and up to operating temps my engine compartment stays nice and toasty for a very long while. No need for idling in most cases after you are up to operating temps.

http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=H521B
http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=6001861

KO

[jet]

This is on my to-do-list also. But Im thinking $40 heater core, $29 blower and $30-$40 for heater and blower hoses. DIY-IT!!

[wotan2525]

Cheap and simple!!! This has worked for me on my last 3 boats and a few pieces of earth moving equipment that I have. Get two 3" blowers mount them in the engine compartment connect 3" pvc pipe and fittings to where ever you want the heat to go. I buy the pull out vents from skidim.com for added convenience. You are basically drawing heat from the engine block/exhaust manifold itself. Once my boat has been running and up to operating temps my engine compartment stays nice and toasty for a very long while. No need for idling in most cases after you are up to operating temps.

http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=H521B
http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=6001861

KO

This kind of makes sense. Aren't the exhaust risers just giant heater cores, anyway??

[jet]

One draw-back to that method. It will work if everything on the engine is working perfect. But I was on a mali once where the tiny oil leak (supras are know for leaking in the back of the valve covers) was dripping on the exhaust and the oil smell was getting into the heater some how and it was chocking us to death. So any exhaust leaks or oil leaks would nix that method for me. Its just as simple to diy it and run it from the heater hose.

[FoiltechLaunch21V]

This kind of makes sense. Aren't the exhaust risers just giant heater cores, anyway??


Yes I would agree. This way has worked for me for years on various engines.. A lot cheaper and easier to repair when needed.

[FoiltechLaunch21V]

One draw-back to that method. It will work if everything on the engine is working perfect. But I was on a mali once where the tiny oil leak (supras are know for leaking in the back of the valve covers) was dripping on the exhaust and the oil smell was getting into the heater some how and it was chocking us to death. So any exhaust leaks or oil leaks would nix that method for me. Its just as simple to diy it and run it from the heater hose.

Well...Turn off the blower and fix it!! :)

I keep my equipment in perfect running order ALL the time. This method has kept my crew warm for over ten years.

[cadunkle]

This is on my to-do-list also. But Im thinking $40 heater core, $29 blower and $30-$40 for heater and blower hoses. DIY-IT!!

I'd like to do a total DIY on this if I can get my cost under half of that piecing together with a off the shelf auxiliary heater. I just need to find a ridiculously large heater core to do it, or use 2-3 smaller heater cores. benefit of using smaller heater cores could be less room and placing the heat closer to where it's needed. Heck, I could plumb one up front and another under the back seat. Probably overkill though. I'd rather just do one large heater core under the dash with 3-4 outlet hoses. That combined with the seat heaters in the front seats and I think we'd be golden.

Anyone know what vehicles have large heater cores? The heater core in the Northern brand $192.43 heater I linked to is 2" x 6" x 14 3/8".

Biggest I've found (so far) off the shelf is for a 1980 Ramcharger, which is a 2" x 7 7/8" x 12", which is more surface area than the Northern heater (86.25"^2 vs 94.50"^2). $75 at Advance (Ready-Aire), $59 at Autozone (Spectra).

Not 100% on what to use to push air. Bilge blower may work, but may not be enough flow for a heater core this size... Might take two? Rule 4" 240 CFM blower from Wholesale Marine ... $25.17
3" blower duct 20' from Wholesale Marine ... $18.26
4" blower duct 10' from Wholesale Marine, since I can't flange mount a blower motor ... $9.90
Shipping ... $13

Heater hose, not sure on length yet... ballpark $15 (might have enough already)
Two NPT ?? to 5/8" nipple ... maybe $5
Sheet metal for making heater box... think I already have this

So basically looking at a ballpark of $156.21, including sales tax and shipping where applicable. + another $8-$10 for a six of some beverages. :D

To do the Northern heater the cost would be around $52.01 in parts + $192.43 for the heater unit + $19 shipping + $14.80 tax = $278.24.

DIY saves me $122 over the semi-DIY using the Northern heater, and saves me $251.49 over the Heatrcraft unit from Skidim (using promo code), though that wasn't including shipping so maybe another $20 saved there on top of that.

Those savings could of course change as I figure out for certain what to do to push air. Maybe another $25 to run dual 4" blowers would be better insurance? 240 CFM vs 480 CFM. Anyone know the CFM of a typical cage style blower motor in a car? I would imagine that would be a good flow number to match. Also, I forgot to add cost for foam to mount the heater core in the box... So add a few dollars for some foam from Home Depot or wherever, though I think I may have some laying around. Call it about a $160 project as of now.

If anyone has an idea of how to do this better or cheaper, don't be shy. I would like to order this stuff today or tomorrow so there's a chance I could get it done for the weekend.

[cadunkle]

For comparison sake, doing the blowers from the engine compartment to move warm ambient air around the engine would cost approx $103.74 for 3 blowers and some hose. I don't think the air coming off this would be as warm as that off a heater core, unless perhaps you make some sheet metal ducts for them to pull around the exhaust manifolds, similar to the hot air setup on many 60s through 80s cars to provide warm air to the carb on a cold start. I doubt if it would be that hot since the manifolds are water cooled and jacketed so you're not getting a transfer from a hot manifold like a car but rather a cooler water jacket.

[beast 496]

Sorry, but I would have already had the heater installed and back on the water. lol Good luck Al

[cadunkle]

Al, point taken, but it's not keeping me off the water. I'd like to be sure I plan this correctly no matter which route I go, and being as I have the free time to make a heater box saving some money would be great. A couple hundred bucks is a lot to some of us.

If I go with the big heater core from a Ramcharger, which is bigger than the Northern unit and maybe slightly bigger than the Heatercraft. So I'd leaning towards the DIY with the larger heatercore and much cheaper cost which would give me the option of doing the the heated seats while staying in my budget.

Is under the dash the best place to put this? Not many places on the boat so all that comes to mind is under the dash, or in (or under) the dry storage compartment in front of the observer's seat. Here's what I have to work with under the dash...

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/P1020688.jpg

Some mounting options using a cardboard template cut 2" larger than the heater core on each side. Core is 2" deep, so I would expect my heater box to be 3"-4" deep. The black marker is the size of the heater core itself. The Ramcharger core I believe has the in/out both on same end facing same direction, so I would likely have them facing forward at the bottom for good drainage during winterization and easy connection through the floor to the engine. Idea would be 3 3" vents on front for heater out hoses and one or two 4" ports on back for blower motors... Or alternatively some better method of forcing air through the core. I figure using some 120m m or 140mm 12v fans would be a smaller package but downside is they wouldn't push more than 100-150 CFM.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/P1020689.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/P1020693.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/P1020696.jpg

What do you guys think of the mounting location? Any issues? How about routing heater hoses? I hate to cut 3" holes all over the boat. Any close easy places to your them for pull out vents or would you just leave 3 hoses under the dash and just grab one for warmth? I figure I can make holders for them so you can leave the hoses pointed at the driver or just grab one and pull it out to observer seat area?

[beast 496]

On our Beast, which is basically a closed bow sunsport. I mounted the heater unit under the passenger seat area, near the battery. One vent goes directly out the storage box and the other vent hose is routed up under the drivers foot area. Rarely do we have to run on high, usually on low or med. Having a three speed blower motor is great. Remember to have enough of return air to supply the fan motor. Proper routing of water hose can make or break your heater install. Al

[chrisk]

beast, how exactly do you have your water hose routed? And you used the heater from the 4wd.com link you posted earlier right?

[beast 496]

On our motor, which is a 496, the head cross over tube has a fitting for the auxilery heater. The heat input is attached to this location, the output is just prior to the raw water pump. I use a 1 1/4 connector with a 5/8 Y. This way the water is actually pushed and sucked for the circulation.
On a Ford application I use the same Connector with the Y configuration again just prior to the raw water pump, and then use a fitting coming out of the intake manifold for the pressure side going to the heater core. Again great water flow

[beast 496]

Yes, I use the 28,000 btu heaters from Heater craft ordered out of 4wd hardware. Al

[cadunkle]

For better or worse I'm trying the home made route. Got most of the parts now. This weekend I'll pick up 3 4'x8' panels of sheet metal from a friend who wants them gone, and the required fittings. If I get over this cold I'll see about making a heater box. For now, here's what I have. The heater core is huge, with tanks it measures out to 13 3/4" x 7 7/8". Should really kick out some heat! Still unsure of how the blower motors to push will work out. At first I was wondering if they wouldn't be enough airflow, now I'm thinking maybe too much? I can always put them on a resistor to have multiple speeds, or modify for another type of fan/blower later.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/IMG00009-20111006-2006.jpg

[cadunkle]

Also, I ordered one seat heater kit to try on the drivers seat. I figure if it's not too difficult I'll do the observer seat too. I was hoping for a simple install just pull the skin apart from the seat and slide the heater pad in. Not so simple, there is a piece that attaches the piping toward the front of the seat to the seat base that obstructs the heater. Apparently you can cut slits in the heater pad between the elements, so I'm going to try doing that and reattaching the strap to the seat base through the heater pad so I have heat across the whole seat and the upholstery still fits tight. I have a feeling the seat back will be even worse but I'll figure it out when I get to that part. Has anyone else done seat heaters that might have some pointers?

[cadunkle]

Driver's seat base done. Just need to do the seat back, not today though.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/IMG00011-20111007-1653.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/IMG00010-20111007-1652.jpg

[wotan2525]

Glad you decided to blaze the trail on this... Looking good! Also, the proper tools always help. In this case? Makers Mark!

[chrisk]

Haha I was going to comment on the Makers also!

I'm interested to hear how the seat back goes, also, how convenient/inconvenient it is having your seat bottom plugged in.

[cadunkle]

Well I got my motivation in gear despite still being sick. Picked up 3 sheets of sheet metal from a friend last night and today made a rough template from cardboard, cut the metal, and bent it to what I need. So I need to make a lid/front for the box, make the holes for the blowers/vent ducts/heater lines, weld, and paint. Will post pictures when it's done. Cost should be right around what I figured previously. In retrospect it might have been prudent to do this in aluminum due to the marine environment, but my boat doesn't stay in the water or see salt so I'm not too worried. Besides, the metal was free and I'm not set up to weld aluminum. I'm thinking it might be good to put a strainer on the raw water intake though, to prevent the heater core fore getting plugged up.

Didn't feel like diving into the seat back today. I'm sick and don't feel like having to be too creative with upholstery if I find what I think I will inside the seat. I have a tentative plan but I'll deal with that when the time comes. As for the wires, I don't expect them to be a problem. Each pad comes with a clip/plug on the wire that plugs into the main switch/fuse harness so they can be quickly disconnected. I plan to drill a hole in the bottom of the seat to run the wires through and then into the side panel under the throttle and under the dash. No idea where I will mount the switch for the heated seats yet. Could be on dash, under dash, under seat, in side panel, or who knows.

As for the whiskey... There's always a Plan B, and it's usually Makers Mark.

[cadunkle]

Just about done. Heater is installed in the boat as of tonight. Crunch to get it in before riding tomorrow. Had a little trouble with the electrical. Planned to wire it up to the secondary blower breaker in the dash but it was only 6 amps, and the only other free breaker I had was 10 amps and wasn't quite enough for two 4" blowers pulling 4.x amps each. I rigged it up straight to the battery through a 15 amp fuse and wire run from battery box to under dash. This week I'll order a 15 amp breaker to run it off the dash and wire it up that way. It's about 50* out right now and running on the hose to about 140* it sure felt nice having that warm air blowing on me. Real test will be on the water to see if I need to go to a warmer thermostat or not.

I have 3 3" outlets and I just quickly put hose on two of them. I noticed there is uneven air flow through the 3 outlets. Not sure what I can do about that, but any warm air is better than cold air I'd imagine. Forecast is 47* air and 55* water when I splash, so this should be a welcome addition to the ol' Saltare.

No heater seats yet. Just have the one seat base but didn't install the seat back yet. Probably do that this week. The blower motors made it clear to me that all new additions that have electrical draw will require their own tap direct off the battery, so it's just as well since I need to get some more electrical parts. Anyone know how many amps the alternators on these things are? It's a PCM 454.

Wondering at what point I'll have charging issues. Blower motors are around 10 amps combined, heated seats I think 7.5 and if the one works well I'll be adding two more kits so that would be 22.5 amps... So just stuff to keep warm would be 32.5 amps. Figure head unit must pull 5-10 amps... It'll trip the stereo breaker if I turn it up too loud. Not sure what the motor/ignition draws. Could be looking at a lot of power draw. Don't really turn crazy RPM riding, maybe 2300 at 21 MPH I want to say so alternator isn't spinning crazy fast. Not sure what the power curve on these things is but I know it's not peak at 2300 RPM.

[cadunkle]

On a somewhat related note... How cold air/water do you guys ride? I haven't got the the "holy $&%^ it's cold" point yet but when the water gets into the 40s I'll probably be to the point of forcing myself to ride vs. being enthusiastic, and the extra work of winterizing ol' Salty after every outing will be tiring. Usually I winterize around this time but this year I have a full 4/3 suit and now heat, so pushing the envelope.

[cadunkle]

Maybe a bit late but I finally worked up the nerve to pull the drivers seat back apart today and finish the heater seater install. It was a pain, since the inner section is narrow and the piping is attached to the seat back with vinyl stapled in. This part was narrower than the heater so created a problem, as expected. I dealt with this by tucking the sides in along the side of teh inner foam piece and up top cutting a slit in the foam to tuck it in. I also had to cut the vinyl that attaches the piping to allow the heater through, through I cut the heater in the middle to allow the piping to still attach to the seat back. Overall, I hate upholstery and staples, but it came out pretty decent.

Wired it up to the battery, which was a pain as usual to run cables through the bilge. Testing it I let it sit while heating for about 5 minutes then felt the seat. It was somewhat warm though the upper section of the seat back isn't as warm as I would hope. I wonder if cutting it (as specified in the instructions) weakened the heating ability of that part. Similarly the rear section of the seat bottom doesn't feel terribly warm which is odd since it's closest to the plug, but the forward section is very warm. This could also be due to the rear section of the seat base having a lot more padding and insulation between the heater element and the vinyl. It may just take longer than I gave it to heat up. It's freakin' cold out so I'm also wearing thermals under my jeans as well as 3 layers up top. I will say that once I sat down the seat back felt VERY warm and pleasant. Real test will be a cold day on the water. Maybe next weekend. Water temp is down about mid 40s and air in early AM is high 30s/low 40s so it'll be a good test. I also got my heater vent situation sorted and they're attached with glue and zip ties so I should be able to have a real test of the heater next time out.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/IMG00015-20111106-1427.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/IMG00016-20111106-1427.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/IMG00017-20111106-1427.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/IMG00018-20111106-1438.jpg

[cadunkle]

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/cadunkle/Supra%20Saltare/IMG00020-20111106-1606.jpg