can someone explain why people use $200 reversible pumps that have half the flow rate of a $50 pump?
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can someone explain why people use $200 reversible pumps that have half the flow rate of a $50 pump?
http://www.moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=14074Quote:
Originally Posted by Ptownkid
here is an actual comparison that was done of various systems, I have the jabsco and verified my results on you tube as were some of the other mods......not promoting mine as it is my oem but will give you more info for your app. jesse has an awesome upgrade and what I would consider if mine was not comparable....I have an aux sub pum that I want install on my port side and see if it decreases fill times more but I have not had time to do this as I'm all ready getting the lowest fill times I have seen .
Really , fill times are usu all that are important unless you are going from goofy to reg for surfing in which case its a matter of fill and drain times,and are you set up to do this? ie can you separate left from right side completely?
docdrs, I'm going with all 3/4 because I do a lot of slaloming as well and I would like to be able to drain quickly also. I believe 3/4 is the standard size to fit on the pumps and most fittings anyway.
Thanks for the advice on taking the check valves out of the equation on the drain lines, anyone else have an opinion on this?
Totally not trying to be rude...but is there actually an answer to my question contained in there somewhere, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by docdrs
Are the quick disconnects really necessary for the bags I will be leaving in place? Or can I just not pay for those, buy these, screw them into the bags and connect the hose?
http://www.wakemakers.com/1-2-to-3-4...b-adapter.html
"Careful making blanket statements with the information we give you, our conversation regarding check valves vs. vented loops was specific to your setup, and certainly doesn't apply to all systems."
Good point, not trying to steer him in the wrong direction. I did mention he should give you guys a call to discuss the system.
Jason,Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwm
What causes brass to corrode in a boat? I am not saying you are incorrect, just wanted to find out how this occurs? They sell "brass thru hull" fittings for boats. I had my manifold for two years in my Supra and never had any problems.
http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/eval-...86-217151.html
Ptown.... was just putting more info into the differences not answering your question. realized I forgot to put the link in the post as well (pwi).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ptownkid
3 less pumps, no one way valves, 3 less sets of drain lines, no vented loops, less space required for pumps, and you will not get the same fill/drain times unless you go to 1" lines. Also in the timings a 3800 rule pump was being used to get down below the times I get. I can fill/drain at a rate of approx 100 lbs a minute per pump verified on video. Not sure what a 800 tsunami can do but I bet thru a 3/4" line its more like 30 percent slower. But I am hoping someone can prove me wrong. I found a mod that used the 1200 tsunami's on 1 inch intakes and 1 inch lines that is taking around 5 mins to fill a 750....thats fast and quicker than my jabscos.
So although the pumps are more money, you need less of them and less parts, so not sure how much cheaper the system really is.
Heres a few facts about Aerator and Impeller pumps:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ptownkid
Reversible JABSCO (impeller driven) Pro's:
Self-priming
Only need one fill/drain line
No one way check valve needed
Reversible JABSCO Con's:
Impeller can need replacement
Use more amps than aerator pumps (9-11 amps)
Will burn up if run dry without water
Slower fill/drain times
Aerator pumps Pro's:
Faster fill times than Impeller pumps
Bullet-proof, can run-dry
Less cost
Use less amps (3-4 amps)
Aerator pump Con's:
Will not self prime (must be mounted below water line to create prime)
Need two pumps to fill/drain
Need more lines to fill/drain
Fill rates:
Tsunami 1200 - 20 GPM (gallons per minute)
Rule 1100 - 18 GPM
Tsunami 800 - 13 GPM
JABSCO - 640 GPH - 10 GPM
JOHNSON Ultra - 720 - 12 GPM
These fill rates are approximate, times will vary depending on line lengths, elevation loss, etc.
My Malibu VLX I ordered uses Phiranha 800 aerator pumps to fill and drain the hard tanks. For me, I was very pleased Malibu did this because IMO longevity of these pumps will last longer than impeller pumps. Plus, replacing them is much cheaper.
However, Supra/Moomba/Mastercraft use the JABSCO pumps to fill and drain. Both will work fine, it just depends what you are looking for. I have heard the new "green" impellers for the JABSCO pumps are much better and will last longer.
Hopefully this information will get you going in the right direction.
Fman......... I'm curious to know ....did they use 1 inch fittings and lines and when ya get your new ride how fast those pumps fill......bet your getting itchy to get it on the water, great ya still visit us here
here are some times
T800.......3/4 scoop and line.....11.98 min....for 750 lbs
T1200.......1" scoop and line......~5 min........750
2000 gph..3/4 scoop and line......5.09 min........750
3800 gph...1" scoop and line......2.99 min.......750
jabsco.......1" scoop and line......8.06 min.......750..........yellow impeller
Anybody have an opinion on this? ^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
I meant to provide the link to the item with 1" thread and 3/4" barb
So coming back to my point...6 t1200's on 1 inch line will be substantially faster and more than likely cheaper than three reversibles...or am i missing something?
Whoa, I guess this is what happens when I don't get a chance to check replies all weekend! :D
OK, this is good information to have, because it definitely impacts the layout of your system.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
There are a couple of reasons why I would recommend against setting up a system like that:
- With your bow bag in the bag you won't have a way to drain it. You could fill it off of the pump for the rear bag, but without a dedicated pump back there, and with aerator pumps, the water will be stuck in the bag.
- A much more functional system would be to use a bag on each side of the engine compartment and a bag up in the bow. For wakeboarding fill them all up so you have even weight from side-to-side and front-to-back. For surfing fill just the bag on the surf side in the back and the forward bag. That's a much better system, and how we recommend setting things up on direct drive boats.
The way you have things drawn now, yes they are necessary to prevent drain water from flowing back down into the vent connection. Like I said, you could combine the drain connections together with each other and the vent connections together with each other instead of combining the vent and drain from each bag, and that would allow you to eliminate the check valve.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
Thanks for catching that! Check valves definitely need to be on the vent line. Some people will use them on both lines to help ensure as much water is removed from the bag as possible when using an aerator pump, but that's definitely not necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by docdrs
I'm assuming the diagram isn't drawn to scale, so I haven't addressed things like this, but you're absolutely correct, install thru-hulls as far forward as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by docdrs
I would strongly caution anyone against using 1/2" lines (for any aspect of their ballast system). The vent and drain lines need to have at least the same flow rate as the fill line, otherwise they won't serve any purpose. Couple that with the fact that essentially no 1/2" hardware exists (bag connections, thru-hull connections, check valves, etc.) and it's just not worth any potential savings in terms of cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by docdrs
Most importantly, this can result in significant damage to the bag or the boat due to overfilling. AGAIN, please do not use 1/2" lines for your ballast system, we've had numerous customers that have caused extensive fiberglass and gelcoat damage by trying to do something like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ptownkid
Careful using a sump pump in your boat, it's not ignition protected, which could have serious ramifications.Quote:
Originally Posted by docdrs
Yep, definitely stick with 3/4" lines. docdrs is spot on regarding the check valves (see my response above).Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
There are two advantages to using the Flow-Rite system:Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
1. It allows the bags to be removed easily. You're talking about wanting to be able to move your bags around the boat, and if you end up going that route you'll almost certainly need a way to disconnect the lines easily.
2. Using just a standard threaded connector (like you mentioned) will result in the hose extending straight off the top of the bag, which can be a huge packaging problem if you're installing the bag somewhere with limited clearance. Even with our premium hose you'll have problems with the hose kinking in that scenario. With the quick connects you can have the hose extend parallel to the surface of the bag, which means you need a minimum amount of clearance.
No problem, I knew that's what you meant, I just wanted to clarify for anyone else reading this thread in the future so they don't make a mistake setting up their system, and then end up cursing you and I for not knowing what we're talking about. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Fman
Galvanic corrosion is responsible for deterioration in almost every case, and it occurs to all materials (although cathodic materials are much more stable). It typically only a major problem in salt or brackish water environments, but we've had customers that have had parts completely disintegrate in less than two seasons in fresh water. For more information checkout our blog post here: http://media.wakemakers.com/2010/01/...-is-important/Quote:
Originally Posted by Fman
The primary reason there's confusion here is because brass and bronze look virtually identical, so most people use the two interchangeably when describing materials. It's that misunderstanding that propagates the problem, and is evidenced by the fact that the site you linked to is selling a bronze thru-hull, but they're calling it brass.
Jabsco's are essentially identical to an 800GPH Tsunami pump in terms of real world speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by docdrs
Malibu uses 3/4" connections in their ballast systems. For an 800GPH pump there's no reason to use a larger diameter, as pump will be the limiting factor (unless you had 50' of hose between the pump and the tank/bag or something).Quote:
Originally Posted by docdrs
Looks like my post was too long, so here's the rest of it:
Correct, aerator pumps will always be faster and cheaper than flexible vane impeller pumps, but those aren't always the two most important variables.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ptownkid
For example, on direct drive boats, where bags are out typically in the open, using aerator pumps means that you'll have a drain pump sitting in the middle of the boat that's prime for stubbed toes. You'll also have an extra connection to the bag, which means one more visible hose. So for that scenario, a lot of our customers will use flexible vane impeller pumps (like the Jabsco or Johnson) because the pump can be mounted remotely, and there are just two connections to make to the bag.
That's just one scenario where a flexible vane impeller pump may make more sense, even though it will be more expensive and slower than an available aerator pump.
Ultimately both pumps can be setup to work well, be reliable, and more than fast enough for most application, it just comes down to the individual situation, and making sure whoever is designing the system knows what they're doing.
Jason, thanks for taking the time to respond to all of this, it's been a big help.
I'm laughing at myself for forgetting about draining that bag after I move it. So, I think I'm going to just keep one of the current Launch Pad's I have and use that when I want to surf.
When you guys say drill the thru-hull drains as far forward as possible, I understand what you mean, however I'm nervous about my bow bags. The picture is actually pretty accurate to what I was planning, I want the drain holes to be just a few inches away from the bilge pump hole so that everything looks clean and uniform. However, now I'm worried that because the bags will be farther forward than their holes, the water will siphon out. Should I be worried and how can I stop this?
Also, the SOLE reason I'm doing this project is so that I don't have to step over my bags inside the boat. I was very happy with the bags I was running last season as far as wake goes, however I really REALLY don't want the clutter inside my boat.
ANDDDD my last current question... could you provide links for what you're recommending for the PVC "manifold" in the bottom of the hull? AND I'm worried about the bags filling when I don't want them to - I don't want to grind off my scupper and I don't want to have to get inside my engine compartment to flip a ball valve everytime I fill the system.
Thanks so much for the help!
No problem, happy to help out.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
It happens, don't worry.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
Putting the holes forward in the boat was only in relation to the rear bags, because that will elevate the drain fitting location relatively to the top of the bag. Based on the bag sizes you're using, and where they'll be installed I don't think you would have a problem with this anyway because it's really only a problem on v-drive boats where the rear bags come all the way up to the top of the locker.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
Regardless, for your bow bags placing the thru-hulls further back on the boat (roughly under the windshield) will be just fine.
Gotcha, and if you're been using that weight setup and know what to expect in terms of the wake then you're good.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
Sorry, I forgot this early. With just two fill pumps you'll only need a Tee, and since you're using 800s, 3/4" is fine. So in that case you would just need to use our 3/4" Intake Nipple to connect a 3/4" Intake Tee to the ball valve. From there you can thread the 800s directly into the tee.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
You don't already have a thru-hull that you've installed do you? As long as you don't just use a 3/4" Bronze Mushroom Thru-hull, that along with the check valves will ensure you don't have any issues with the water level in the bags changing when you don't want it to.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
The ball valve is only there for emergencies, you do not need to access it in regular use.
Thanks for the info! I just saw that hose went on sale so I purchased hose and pumps tonight. I'm going to keep buying the supplies incrementally as I get some dough. Gettin' pretty excited!
For good reason, you'll have a great system when you're done with the install, and you'll love having it automated.
Jason, I finally finished this project. Everything works great except for one problem. My rear bag is filling when I don't want it to when underway. I understand why this happens and I was just wondering if anyone has any advice on what I can do other than installing the vented loop?
if you route the fill hose high up above the bag it shouldnt fill on its own.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk
It is routed up high, comes up underneath the dash just about as high as you can go underneath the console.. still probably at least 2 feet higher than the bag sitting on the floor in the back.
Installing a vented loop and removing the scupper from the intake fitting is the only sure fire way to eliminate a siphon from being established and filling the bag.
Why don't you want to install one?
Jason, I think mostly because I'm lazy, I was just hoping for an easy fix I could do in a day. I'll probably order one though
Haha, gotcha! I suffer from that same syndrome as well, but sometimes the only solution is to do it correctly.
You can mess around with re-routing the fill hose, adding loops and coils and stuff, but for the amount of time it takes to cut the hose, slide the loop in and secure it with two clamps, that's a much more efficient solution in my opinion.
Could you leave the scupper and put the sprinkler valves behind the pumps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fman
I suppose one could do that. It it would pretty well defeat the point of doing such an upgrade. Besides failing frequently, those valves are also a huge source of restriction, accounting for a nearly 50% reduction in flow. They really only belong in a sprinkler system, so it's best to get them out of there.
I am planning on upgrading my 2001 supra, I called WM's and talked with Spencer and he recemmed that I install two new mushroom type thru-hull intakes into the boat. I was just wondering if anyone has done this and if they had pics of the install. Just like most everyone here I am terrified of drilling holes in my boat. I have already order the parts from WM's to complete the install just wondering if it is better to make the manifold type or drill thru-hull intakes in my boat. I attached what I am going to install if you have any advice or help please let me now. -Thanks
Attachment 9906
I was recommended the same thing for my 2005 22 SSV. I got to the point where Spencer was going to put all the parts required in my cart and now I haven't heard from him in a week or so. Hmmmmm..... Anyway, what pump is that and did you go 3/4" or 1" to the bag? The pump he was recommending was the Rule 1100 with a 1" outlet but only 3/4" inlet??? It also looks like you have a check valve after the pump, I don't think he was having me put that in there. One of the main reasons for doing this upgrade was to get rid of the sprinklers but he wanted me to keep the one for the center bag. I was thinking about switching out the thru hull to a mushroom or grinding down the scupper on the original to get rid of all the sprinklers but Spencer did not think it was worth it???
He recommended using the 800's 3/4" all around to stay as factory and low budget as possible. What I was told is that you can use the rule pump that is already there and hooking it up straight to the inlet of the center bag. Getting rid of the manifold and sprinkler valves setup all together. Spencer said to put the check valve after the pump although I kind of think it is not necessary or better to install on the drain line. I am going to leave my scupper intake as-is and install two new mushroom style intakes, those two will fill the rear 750 bags. I am just at the point where I need to know what is better setup. I don't really like the idea of drilling a new hole in my boat, but if I have to I will. It sucks not being able to use ballast on your wakeboard boat!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggo
From my limited understanding, if you leave the scupper in place, then while under way the scupper will force water into the system past the check valve and into the bag. Maybe not as fast as the pump would, but pump does not stop the water from moving either way and thus the need for a check valve or in the factory case, the sprinkler valve. With the mushroom, I think we are more concerned about the suction that is created under way and thus the check valve is installed. I would be interested in knowing how much time difference there is between 3/4" and 1" dedicated lines to the 750's and if it is worth the cost.
My question is will the Rule pumps have enough suction to draw water from a mushroom through hull? I have problems in my factory setup with the pump "vapor locking" and I have to put some pressure into the scupper (through forward movement) to get the pump to prime. Without a scupper you won't have that ability.
As far as the question about 2 mushroom fittings or a manifold.... The factory manifold won't compete with 3 through hull fittings. If you go with a manifold you will need to increase the diameter of the pipe to compete with the 3 through hulls. My guess is that you would need a good 2 inch manifold (or more). Wake makers could definately answer this question.
sorry guys i have not been on since Thursday or Friday trying to get some lake time for memorial day. the setup i have pictured is what WM's recommended i was just wondering if anyone has done the thru-hull mushroom intakes and if there is anything that needs to be fix that would make it better.
I thought about going with the one inch lines but wanted to keep the cost down and use the factory lines. I would not think it would be much more expensive except the cost of new line I think 3/4"=.99 and 1"=1.49 per foot @ WM's
I also was worried about the suction of the tsunamis if it does not work i guess i am out 60 bucks. if they don't work i guess it will be upgrade to the expensive impeller pumps.
I don't know if the rule pump will allow water thru the scupper intake without movement i have always coasted to fill because of what you said with vapor locking.
Wakemaker told me they talk to tons of people a week who do the thru-hull install i just would like to talk or even better see one that has been done.
Since I am also addicted to wood boats with a 66 Chris Craft Super Sport here is a link about brass fittings from the wood boat guru explaining what happens to the brass. Not sure if it applies to what you guys are doing but worth reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fman
http://www.danenbergboatworks.com/fastener_metals.htm
Guys and Gals,
This thread was started by by Fman in 2009. His system worked but not as well as he had anticipated.
We are getting quite a few customers asking about how and where to install the aerator pumps so I wanted to chime in. At the time of Travis's install we were fairly limited on what was available to complete the ballast upgrade. WakeMakers does not suggest the upgrade explained in this post.
It is not a valid solution. Our main goal of is to solve the issues that plague the 2002 to 2008 factory Gravity III system. We have developed the Supra Gravity III Ballast System Upgrade that utilizes as much of the factory plumbing that we could. Basically we convert the system to use reversible impeller pumps. Although we've worked as hard as possible to make this upgrade as easy to install as it can possibly be, there are some aspects of the installation that are unavoidable. Additional holes will need to be drilled in the boat. There's no way around it if we're going to fix the problems that are inherent with the factory system.
We've been selling ballast systems for a long time, and our customers are, understandably, always intimidated by this step of the process. We have some great video guides available that demystify this step of the process, so although it's intimidating, if you know how to use a drill, it's not difficult. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oprSN59A8)
Of course you can always have your local dealer or marine service shop drill the holes for you if you would prefer (and we're happy to ship your order directly to them for installation).
Outside of the drilling the holes, the rest of the installation is fairly straight forward, and consists of mounting the new pumps, running new hose to feed the system, and wiring the new pumps to your factory switches.
Thanks,
Spencer
What happen to the pictures?
Could you expand why it isn't valid? I'm not concerned about the added drilling but am about running the pumps dry and not knowing when the bags are empty. Not to mention the price of the impellor pumps. The aerator pump system with vented loops and check valves seem to be the best of both worlds. Thanks.
Fman - this upgrade still working well for you?
Fman sold the boat this was in a while back ...
As mentioned, Travis did sell this boat a few years ago. Since then we've helping him do a couple of reversible pump based upgrades on the two Malibu's he has purchased.Quote:
Originally Posted by Decum
An aerator pump based upgrade will work just fine though, so if that's the route you would prefer to go based on the pros and cons, go for it.