Surfing Speed

Funny, this section always has viewers, but it has little action. SO, I decided to add something I have learned about wake surfing.

First of all, surfing is a blast. It is easy enough that we have yet to fail getting people up on their first time, so it is simple...and yet it has nuances that us old heads can work on, like forever. Setting the wave up has been a pain for us, though, since we have had no guidance. Last season we were surfing at 12 knots, 1100# on the goofy side and 700# in the nose of our 2005 24SSV, with the plate full nose up. To get a decent curl, we had to turn a bit into the surfer. The kids could surf great, but I could not find a spot where I could let go of the rope. I always fell out.

So, this season, we started with a new, larger board. I figured the old one was too small for me at 180lbs. This worked better, but the sweet spot I could work with no rope was very tight...like +-1foot. Not enough to do much with. So, better, but still not right. I finally broke the code. The boat speed has to be matched to the weight of the surfer! I found that my sweet spot opened up when I dropped the speed to 10.8 knots. The boat was no longer trying to outrun me. Finally! Also, we could straighten the boat out and no longer had to turn slightly into the surfer. Amazingly, only 1.2mph made a world of difference.

Well, thinking what was good for me must be good for the kids...I gave them the same speed. None of them liked it. Now they were constantly overrunning the boat. So...for those beginners like us...heavier surfers have more drag, so they tend to glide slower. Lighter surfers skim faster, so they need more boat speed. And 1 mph makes a huge difference when it comes to surfing.

If any of you have figured out tips and tricks for a beginner like me...please chime in!

i've been surfing for the past 4 seasons, but the past two surfing has pretty much been ALL we do. i think it's a more friendly watersport than wakeboarding or skiing, and a lot lower-impact which is why everyone likes it when we have them try.

i have to say, you will lengthen that surfable area by 2-3x if you install some sort of delayed convergence system. i was in the same boat as you, having to be right off the platform to surf and had to really pay attention to stay in the sweet spot. after playing around with my own system based off of the hundreds of homebrew systems out there, it is the best thing i have done to my boat other than installing perfect pass. it's worth the time to throw one together with scraps of wood you have at home just to test it before making the plunge, but i haven't seen many people who haven't improved their surf wave this way.

Everyone has their own preference and as you get more experience riding you will find that the sweet spot gets larger and larger. I'm 220lbs and I haven't found a board that I can't ride, yet..... Larger boards are easier than the smaller ones but once I spend a few minutes figuring out the characteristics and how to weight them, I can ride just about anything.

"Delayed convergence"...is that the side plates the new boats come with?

yes, the most popular are either the malibu-style paddles that swing out, or the nautique-style plates that slide out. both have been used with success. i found the malibu-style was easier to implement for me, and most people use that style when building their own. my first implementation during testing was a simple wal-mart cutting board (15"x20") with the board cut to match the hull contour. mounted that to a couple 2x4's that were cut to sandwich the platform edge, held on by ratchet straps. took maybe an hour to build and had great results. do a little research on "ghetto-gate" and you'll see many many similar implementations to draw inspiration from!

I have a 20V, and while the surfing wave isn't anything like the new boats with surf systems, it's pretty damn respectable for what it is, and I'm able to surf that boat no problem at all. I found there's a few ways to alter your wave.

First, weight - Obviously you need some weight in the boat. I've got a 750lb bag in the rear locker of my boat. I fill that up, and I fill up the 400lb bag in my ski locker. With just that, I can surf the wave, but it's not my favorite wave to surf. The wave gets much bigger with more weight, so whether that's people, or that's ballast, more weight helps. I have 2 extra 400lb bags that I fill up around the boat when I don't have a big crew. Usually just 1 of the 400lb bags on the surf side rear seat adds a good bit of height, which for my boat, translates to push. Also, the further the weight is to the rear corner of the boat, the more it helps the shape/height of the wave. I don't find that more than the 400lb bag in the ski locker is beneficial. If I have people up there, fine, but I'd rather them be in the back on the surf side.

Second, Speed - This is hard to dial in on a per person basis. It varies slightly from my experience based on how much weight is in the boat, and how big your rider is. If you have a lot of weight in the boat, you might need a little bit more speed to clean the wave up. If your wave is washing out, try speeding the boat up a bit. If your wave looks long, but has no push, slow the boat down a bit. This paired with the next variable (the wake plate) is the hardest thing to get right IMO.

Last, wakeplate - This only applies if you have one that's adjustable at the helm. The plate lets you shape the wave to be steeper or longer at any speed. Finding that perfect combo is what takes time. If I want a longer wave to play on, I have the wakeplate around 75% up. If I want as steep as possible, I go full 100% up. I've had it as low as 50%, but only because I was running a crap-ton of weight (2700lbs plus people) and it was washy. The plate helps with that. Adjusting all of this together can make for a great wave... it just takes some dialing in.

My best setup is 750lb surf side locker bag full. Other locker empty. Ski locker 400lb bag full, extra 400lb bag full on surf side rear seat in the corner, then 4-5 other people all huddled on the surf side as much as possible, and one of those sitting on the back corner of my sun pad. Wake plate at 75%, speed unknown... but roughly 2650-2700 RPM's in RPM mode (my speedo's never worked). I can play all day on that wave.

Interesting info!

So what speeds are you guys using?

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Originally Posted by CJD

Interesting info!

So what speeds are you guys using?

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No idea. Speedo is broken. I'll run my phones GPS next time, but I'd guess somewhere in the 10.5-11.5 range.

I've been studying all those wake gate systems on u tube. They are cool and all...but I'm getting a better wave than they are on the tube with 2500lbs in our 24ssv. The more I thought about the physics, tilting the boat accomplishes the same thing as a gate. The advantage of the gates seems to be the ability to switch between straight and goofy without transferring a ton of ballast.

That said...can someone explain the difference between the systems that are side gates and bottom hull gates? Do they accomplish the same thing? Is one better or more efficient?

I played some more with speeds today. I can ride the wave between 10 and 11.3mph. Below those speeds I sink. Above those speeds I cannot skim fast enough to keep up with the boat. Now the kids end up on the swim platform if we run less than 10.5mph. They seem to be happiest at 11.7 to 12 mph. They do have the advantage of a longer curl at those speeds.

Great info! I'm taking notes as I read!

Well, let me take a wag. I assume the bottom wake plates tilt the boat, acting like ballast. It would seem that would take longer for the curl to develop, since you have to get up to speed for the plate to have affect?

The side plates act by yawing the boat off center?

Has anybody gotten experience with both systems to explain pros/cons to each?

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Originally Posted by CJD

Well, let me take a wag. I assume the bottom wake plates tilt the boat, acting like ballast. It would seem that would take longer for the curl to develop, since you have to get up to speed for the plate to have affect?

The side plates act by yawing the boat off center?

Has anybody gotten experience with both systems to explain pros/cons to each?

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Last summer I made a DIY "wake gate" out of plastic which attaches to the Port side swim step/bracket. It did improve my wave significantly in terms of lengthening the wake, as well as cleanness of the wake. It did however kind of act like a rudder in the sense it would make the boat "kick out" or want to turn to the left a bit, not unbearable but definitely noticeable when underway with the gate deployed.

I have thought about adding a couple Lenco trim tabs much like HD2500 did, and think adding them to the port/starboard transom, would serve several purposes, one being to delay the convergence and creating a better wake, and I would also think instead of acting like a rudder, being on the deployed off the transom downward, they would cause the boat to list which would make the wake larger, longer, and cleaner, and not effect the forward travel of the boat as opposed to the kind deployed off the side, physics says so!

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Originally Posted by devovino

Last summer I made a DIY "wake gate" out of plastic which attaches to the Port side swim step/bracket. It did improve my wave significantly in terms of lengthening the wake, as well as cleanness of the wake. It did however kind of act like a rudder in the sense it would make the boat "kick out" or want to turn to the left a bit, not unbearable but definitely noticeable when underway with the gate deployed.

I have thought about adding a couple Lenco trim tabs much like HD2500 did, and think adding them to the port/starboard transom, would serve several purposes, one being to delay the convergence and creating a better wake, and I would also think instead of acting like a rudder, being on the deployed off the transom downward, they would cause the boat to list which would make the wake larger, longer, and cleaner, and not effect the forward travel of the boat as opposed to the kind deployed off the side, physics says so!

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Devovino hit the nail on the head. The tabs do both, they create a very slight yaw but it doesn't effect your turning ability really. They also create list. One of the strange things i have noticed is sometimes with heavier weight the wave actually becomes better when turning away from the rider.
It also seems like the tabs are better on fuel consumption but i have no hourly consumption rates to prove it.

Some good info and some not to my experience. My gates do not create yawn when at speed. I can actually push mine out by hand @ Surf speeds. All it does is divert a minimal amount a water causing it to travel farther causing the delay. @ idle I can tell it is out but I track straight the only change is trying to turn sharp to the gate side..

Advantages of the gates is they are cheap, removable and do not cause instalation damage /holes when r&ding. The tabs are effective and once you install them they are installed with little room for modification.

I believe changes to fuel consumption for the better will be seen with either system for to the significant decrease in ballist once installed. After that it goes to reproping

Regarding your issue.... You need more weight. If you need to turn to the surf side to keep push then you need more weight. Turning to the surf side causing the boat to list more giving the effect of more weight. When I surfed before gates I ran 750 - rear Surf side, 1000 Surfside floor, 1100 ski compartment, 400 playpen, surf side.

Interesting...

So, has anybody been lucky enough to surf behind both systems...the gates and tabs...to compare the wake difference?

I have surfed behind both systems and both seem to work equally well. The main difference in my opinion would be the steering issue. Despite Mr Cornrickeys experience, it has been my experience with my saltare and my santera that having a gate sticking out from the side of your boat makes the handling horrible. When at surf speed they aren't horrible but they always want to turn one derection. When a rider falls you almost have no option but to turn one direction to get back to them or make a huge turn to get back to them. I put the surf tabs on my boat and i would never go back. The room for modification to my tabs is there by being able to adjust the size of the tab as well as the amount of deflection in the fins. I realize that the tabs probably aren't for everyone due to having to drill a couple of hole in your boat but if you want a superior system without having clunking gates hanging off the side and around your boat the tabs are the way to go. And for the record, my system only cost about 450 installed

You make a great case for the lower tabs. What system did you use on your boat?

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Originally Posted by CJD

You make a great case for the lower tabs. What system did you use on your boat?

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It's just a couple of lenco trim tabs, you can see them in my diy wakeshaper thread. Don't get me wrong. Both work great but the ease of the tabs and steering is what led me to the tabs. And this system has been around before the Malibu system.

Cool...I was thinking plain trim tabs would be the easiest solution for the least cost. I'll search for your thread...

Last month we dinged the factory prop...the original OJ 13X15.5. The local dealer recommended an OJ 14.25 X 14. Yesterday we finally had the full 3000# of ballast in all the sacks for the first time (2005 24SSV 325 Indmar). With the old prop this amount felt sluggish, and surfing was about 3500rpm. With the new prop the weight is no longer noticeable, and the RPM at surf speed is just 3000RPM. After we emptied the sacks I wanted to see what the top end is...just over 40mph. So, this newer model OJ is much more usable at surf weights, and only took about 5mph out of the top end.

CJD do you surf with all the bags full? I just added 1100 lb sacs in the rear to get more into surfing, however have not tried filling all the sacs at once. Just curious if that was how you were running for surfing.

CJD What kind and size board are you surfing with? I finally got out yesterday for my first real surf session this year (all my friends have gotten married and now have new borns, so i had to find some new surf buddies for a while). I had about 1500lbs of ballast, not much but just enough to keep me on top of the wave. i started out on my liquid fish 5'6, and had to work really hard to stay in the sweet spot. I switched it up to my ronix 4'10 freestyle board and was surprised how effortless it was to stay in the sweet spot with the shorter, wider board. im 6ft and 195lbs...

oh yeah... i find the best surf speed for my sunsport is about 11mph.

My boat came with the factory ballast of 750 per side, and 1100 front. Our first board was on the small side.

I figured I was too fat (185lbs) for the small board, so I went to our local supra dealer and got the young wake board dudes there to pick one out for me. They picked a board for me, but insisted that wasn't my problem. Of course, they were right...I was just trying to keep up with the boat When it was going to fast. I still do better with the larger board (I'll need to check the brand to be sure).

I finally got an 1100# bag on the surf side. We had all the bags full the other day because my son mis-heard and filled the wrong side. I figured, "what the heck...let's give it a try.". So we tried it with 1100 surf side, 750 non surf, 1100 forward, and at least 50 in the bilge. The wake was impressive...like chest high impressive with all bags and the wake plate full nose up. With all bags full you have to do a slight turn towards the surf side to get the curl to start, but after that it's a tremendous wake.

The 24ssv takes a lot of water to list. The 1100 bag will only lean it about 4 inches. But a little list is all it takes to get the curl going.

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Originally Posted by CJD

Last month we dinged the factory prop...the original OJ 13X15.5. The local dealer recommended an OJ 14.25 X 14. Yesterday we finally had the full 3000# of ballast in all the sacks for the first time (2005 24SSV 325 Indmar). With the old prop this amount felt sluggish, and surfing was about 3500rpm. With the new prop the weight is no longer noticeable, and the RPM at surf speed is just 3000RPM. After we emptied the sacks I wanted to see what the top end is...just over 40mph. So, this newer model OJ is much more usable at surf weights, and only took about 5mph out of the top end.

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Had time to work with this new OJ prop. This newer design 14.25/14 is superior in every way to the original. The engine never loads coming out of the hole. All the heavy stuff we do (surfing with full bags and pulling 8 on triple tubes) that used to take 3500 RPM with the engine laboring, now only takes 2800 RPM and the engine sounds free. This "feel" is verified with much better fuel economy while pulling the heavy loads.

Prop design has really improved in the last decade. Anyone surfing with old props, I highly recommend a newer generation prop for your "list"!

Props are huge. I surf at about 2650-2700 RPMs. Prior to my prop I was at 3000-3100 with the same load. Boat hardly works to pop up out of the hole full of ballast and people to surf. Getting to wakeboard speeds takes a little more time, but still HUGE improvement over the stock prop I had.