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Thread: Toyota Epic X22

  1. #31
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    Gents, old thread...but had to give two cents on my 11 years with a v-drive Toyota Epic. Failures = 0. Actually did have to straighten a manifold that had been banged presumably during install in 2000. Admit it's not got the torque of 5.7s, and tops out at 43. However, I'm a bit overpropped and leavin 700 rpm on the table. Have pulled riders with over 2k lbs of ballast. Normally ride with a 750, sometimes two. Doesn't hold low speeds as well as others. Again, the guys who put on ACMEs say its night and day, but I can live with all that. 4 gph towing, good cruise mpg, so one tank (47g) lasts a long three days. Fit and finish, and the smoothest, quietest engine out there. Sounds like the Lexus it is when you put your foot in it. All aluminum, 8 bolt mains, hemi, 32 valves, VVT, distibutorless, throttle by wire, etc. Manifolds, ECU and display computer are a bit freaky, but aftermarket stuff is available. Biggest concern is what it will take to reupholster down the road without giving up the quality. No bling, but classic. Still love it!

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by cadunkle View Post
    Nearly all boats have marinized car engines, even that Toyota boat you like. It takes a certain amount of power to move a given hull with a given weight through the water. To greatly simplify, do it with a bigger engine at a lower RPM or do it with a smaller engine at a much greater RPM. Fuel consumption will not be tremendously different at the same MPH. What is unreliable about a small block Ford or even a small block Chevy? These are engines that will go several hundred thousand miles in a car and lest plenty long in a boat. They are both simple and reliable designs that are very similar. BBF and BBC differ greatly, with BBF being superior, but still they're simple and reliable engines.

    As for efficiency, your typical boat engine is so de-tuned that it's not going to be tremendously efficient. Up the compression, improve intake and exhaust and swap for a cam best for your usage and you'll see tremendous performance improvements and fuel consumption improvements as well

    That eco boost will not go several hundred thousand miles like a 351w or 460 will, especially if you're towing heavy loads frequently. Too much HP per cubic inch and still low on torque compared to a normal sized engine. Look at SBF, 302 blocks split in half around 450 HP and as you approach that power level it's not nice to drive, doesn't idle smoothly and won't last long. If you want that kind of power a 460 is just getting started and will idle low and smoothly, giving potentially hundreds of thousands of miles before needing a major rebuild. 700 HP before a factory crank will fail, blocks can take a lot mroe before they become the weak point.

    My point is, for reliability in an application that requires a lot of power and particularly torque, such as trucks and tow boats, you're far better off with a greater displacement engine with stronger components.
    I am not an ecoboost owner, but have to say that this engine has way better torque curve than any NA V8, and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm.

    These engines are built like diesels. Bedplated crank, heavy duty pistons with oil injectors, etc. Turbocharging and direct injection have been in long haul trucking where durability is pretty important. And for the record, there are already plenty of ecoboost engines out there with well over 100K miles and running like new.

    I remember when everyone was claiming the end of the world when electronic fuel injection was introduced into boats. Now, every boat has it and the systems are much more maintenance free than a carb.

    One thing is constant.......Change.
    Last edited by Tims; 04-28-2014 at 07:47 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tims View Post
    I am not an ecoboost owner, but have to say that this engine has way better torque curve than any NA V8, and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm.
    I love my ecoboost. I can pull out into traffic and not worry about the guy behind me slamming into my boat, because I can out accelerate many of the cars on the road while hauling 2 tons behind me. The torque is incredible on that motor. Not to mention, climbing a hill I'm not downshifting and bouncing off the rev limiter like a small block v8 sometimes will. I sit right at 2200 RPMS or so so with the turbos hissing and climbing the hill no problem because all of my torque is available right there.
    -Mike
    2006 Supra Sunsport 20V

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tims View Post
    I am not an ecoboost owner, but have to say that this engine has way better torque curve than any NA V8, and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm.

    These engines are built like diesels. Bedplated crank, heavy duty pistons with oil injectors, etc. Turbocharging and direct injection have been in long haul trucking where durability is pretty important. And for the record, there are already plenty of ecoboost engines out there with well over 100K miles and running like new.

    I remember when everyone was claiming the end of the world when electronic fuel injection was introduced into boats. Now, every boat has it and the systems are much more maintenance free than a carb.

    One thing is constant.......Change.
    1,600+ rpm IS NOT where I want torque to start, how do you get a skier or boarder off the line quick when you don't have power until 1,600 rpm??? Getting out of the hole is where I need power. The 351W provides heaps of torque right off idle. A 351W with performer setup is the most ideal for a boat. Smooth idle and jumps off the line... No waiting on turbos to spool up and eventually fail because the motor is constantly running @ 3,000 rpm vs 1,500 rpm in a vehicle and always under load....
    1992 Supra Comp Ts6m 5000 Series PCM 5.8 HO Pro Boss Protec Ignition (not converted) w/ 4010 "Fish Bowl" Carb
    1.23:1 tranny
    "Silent Rider. Quiets The Competition." muffler isn't so silent anymore. ITS HOLLOW!

    1989 Correct Craft Martinique B/R PCM 5.8 Power Plus Package

    1984 E-Scow

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92SupraComp View Post
    1,600+ rpm IS NOT where I want torque to start, how do you get a skier or boarder off the line quick when you don't have power until 1,600 rpm??? Getting out of the hole is where I need power. The 351W provides heaps of torque right off idle. A 351W with performer setup is the most ideal for a boat. Smooth idle and jumps off the line... No waiting on turbos to spool up and eventually fail because the motor is constantly running @ 3,000 rpm vs 1,500 rpm in a vehicle and always under load....
    Uhh... he was talking about tow vehicles, not a boat. But nevertheless, a 351's torque curve still provides less at 1600 rpms than it does at 3000...
    -Mike
    2006 Supra Sunsport 20V

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92SupraComp View Post
    1,600+ rpm IS NOT where I want torque to start, how do you get a skier or boarder off the line quick when you don't have power until 1,600 rpm??? Getting out of the hole is where I need power. The 351W provides heaps of torque right off idle. A 351W with performer setup is the most ideal for a boat. Smooth idle and jumps off the line... No waiting on turbos to spool up and eventually fail because the motor is constantly running @ 3,000 rpm vs 1,500 rpm in a vehicle and always under load....

    1600 was just a point of reference. The Eco makes more torque from bottom to top over a N/A V8. Hate to break it to you, but that engine straight out performs and will run circles around a 351. With 2 small turbos and high compression provided from the cooling effect of direct injection, there is virtually no turbo lag.

    RPM's is not what kills an engine, it's heat. As long as the heat is managed, no problemo.

    I understand where you are coming from, I have the 6.2 raptor engine in my F150, but I am telling you, that eco does everything my old fashion V8 does and it actually tows better because of the torque curve. I have driven both.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92SupraComp View Post
    1,600+ rpm IS NOT where I want torque to start, how do you get a skier or boarder off the line quick when you don't have power until 1,600 rpm??? Getting out of the hole is where I need power. The 351W provides heaps of torque right off idle. A 351W with performer setup is the most ideal for a boat. Smooth idle and jumps off the line... No waiting on turbos to spool up and eventually fail because the motor is constantly running @ 3,000 rpm vs 1,500 rpm in a vehicle and always under load....
    1600 was just a point of reference. An ECO will outperform any N/A V8 at almost any point in the curve, especially in a boat. With small turbos and direct injection allowing relatively high compression there is virtually no turbo lag. It would run circles around a 351W. With the torque of the ECO you could probably run a higher pitch prop and even drop your RPM.

    RPM and load does not hurt an engine. Heat does, and as long as it is managed, no problemo!

    I know where you are coming from, I have a Raptor 6.2 engine in my F150, but after towing and driving both, my engine has nothing over an ECO and actually the towing performance on the ECO is better as the engine does not have to shift and rev as much as my 6.2.

    It would make a great performing ski/wake boat engine!! Also looks like we are going to have a supercharged 6.2 in a Supra pretty darn soon.
    Last edited by Tims; 04-28-2014 at 08:19 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zim View Post
    Uhh... he was talking about tow vehicles, not a boat. But nevertheless, a 351's torque curve still provides less at 1600 rpms than it does at 3000...
    And I quote:

    "and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm." - Tims

    The 351W has 400+ ft lbs off idle! No long slow wait to get to 1,600 rpm... The hardest part of moving a boat is getting up and out of the hole...
    1992 Supra Comp Ts6m 5000 Series PCM 5.8 HO Pro Boss Protec Ignition (not converted) w/ 4010 "Fish Bowl" Carb
    1.23:1 tranny
    "Silent Rider. Quiets The Competition." muffler isn't so silent anymore. ITS HOLLOW!

    1989 Correct Craft Martinique B/R PCM 5.8 Power Plus Package

    1984 E-Scow

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92SupraComp View Post
    And I quote:

    "and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm." - Tims

    The 351W has 400+ ft lbs off idle! No long slow wait to get to 1,600 rpm... The hardest part of moving a boat is getting up and out of the hole...

    Maybe I'm not understanding him right, I thought he meant right where a boat needs it... as in towing a boat. Since the ecoboost doesnt exist in a marine application, I figured that was safe to assume, maybe not? Even still, the PCM 240hp motor doesn't make 400tq. It makes about 350, and it makes that at 2200-3000 RPM, not right off idle. If it was a twin screw blown 351, then sure, but it's not. Not that it matters since we're comparing apples to oranges here, but the ecoboost motor has 90% of its 420lb/ft of tq at 1700 RPMS. That's not exactly "waiting" for it to spool. If it was at 3-4000 RPMs where it saw that number, sure, but the EB motors have a seriously impressive tq curve.

    I want a big v8 in my boat too, but don't discredit the EB and where it makes its power. It's not the same thing as a Supra (car) with a huge single turbo on it that takes years to spool. These are small twins that spool very quickly.
    -Mike
    2006 Supra Sunsport 20V

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92SupraComp View Post
    And I quote:

    "and right where a boat needs it, 1600rpm and up. 400+ ft pounds at 1600rpm." - Tims

    The 351W has 400+ ft lbs off idle! No long slow wait to get to 1,600 rpm... The hardest part of moving a boat is getting up and out of the hole...
    1600rpm was just a point of reference. A marine version of the Eco would outperform a 351W at every point in the torque curve. 2 small turbos with high compression due to the cooling effect of direct injection means virtually no turbo lag.

    And we should all get ready for boosted engines. Supra will probably have a supercharged 6.2 Ford in around a year.
    Last edited by Tims; 04-29-2014 at 11:51 AM. Reason: grammer

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