I don't understand

[ssmith]

how to get a wake like this

1st is with a Tige...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRBZYUjBQR4

Next is with Drew Danielo on a Centurion...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3RusYcRmFg

I have 2 1100lbs sacs in the v-drive compartments, 650lbs in ski locker, and 2 400lbs v-drive sacs with a Tsunami pump to put wherever. My wake seems more short/tall and not near as long and clean. I've researched it all and I'm more confused.

I am wondering several things... Do I have enough wt, will the wake clean up on the regular side (I surf goofy), will changing props help, is my wt distrubuted right, is my speed right, is the wake plate set right, is the swim deck interfering with a nice clean wake (has a lip on the underside plus and grab rail), and is my boat design not optimal for surfing?

I just don't know. I've even considered trading for a new boat. I love my boat but I wakesurf 90% of the time and I want this aspect of boating to be at its optimal level.

If anyone has a wake that mirrors the ones in the vids..please let me know. I'd love to see pics/video and get more info from you.

Here's my wake from last year. It looks good in the pics and rides well but I don't think its even close to the ones posted above.

Thoughts???

[OneCent]

you have maybe tried near all the options you have, like a 1100lbs in front and the 650 on the side you want to surf? or 1100lbs in front, 1100lbs at the side you want to surf and 400 on the other?

On the picture your wake does look nice and for me its hard to see that the wake on the video are much better.

[ssmith]

The vids show a long/clean wake all the way back to the break. Look at how smooth it is. The vid with Drew is insane...notice how far back it seems that he is. Again, the face is super clean and the break is way back.


Here is what I see when I look at mine

[ScottnAz]

It's so hard to compare pictures to a video, do you have any video of you (or anyone) riding your wave?

I believe, the difference IS in the boats, and think length plays a role in the overall pocket length and quality of the surf wave.

2005 Supra 21V - 21' Length, 98" beam, 25" draft, 3400 lbs

Tige RZ4 - 24' Length, 102" beam, 4500 lbs

Centurion Enzo sv240 - 24' Length, 102" beam , 30" draft, 4600 lbs

I hate to say it Scottie, and certainly this is just my opinion, but I don't think your boat will be able to compete with these newer surf specific boats that are being manufactured. I know my boat can't ever come close. I, do however, think we can produce a great wave that is very rideable and is capable of progressing quickly and having a lot of fun on. From the pictures you've posted of your wave, it looks very impressive, and it seems you are on the right path to getting it truly dialed in.

We may have talked about your ballast before, but I don't remember, and hopefully I won't contradict any suggestions I've previously made to you.....
Do you have the playpen bow? Your 650 center bag seems small, I'd look in to replacing that with a GG center bag. It won't fill completely, but will probably get ya 900+ #'s. Then I'd:
Stick one 400# in the walk-through on top of the seat
Fill the 1100# surf side rear
Fill the old 650# center sac on surf side rear/side area
Then play around with the wakeplate and speed to lengthen the pocket.
You could also try placing the extra 400# sac in the bow area on the surf side, but not fill it more than half.

Don't get discouraged with your boat/setup, you've got a great boat with a lot of potential. As I preview my post....... another though pops in my head..... lake depth also plays a role in wave quality. While I don't think it plays a huge role, I do recall reading a few articles/postings on the issue. I'll see if I can dig those up.

[ssmith]

Scott,

I can understand a bigger boat but not so sure it helps as much as I once thought. I've watched Wake9 review the RZ2 and they love it. I believe they state that there isn't really a need for the 24 ft Tige that they own and it requires more weight than the smaller boats. Over on Wakeworld Surfdad has also posted up a thread of interest on the RZ2 after James came back talking about how well the wake had boosted him. Also, the Tige vid I posted is a stock weighted Tige 22Ve. It just seems that the right boat, even though smaller, easily gets the job done. I'm afraid that you may be right about our boats not competing on the same level as the surf specific boats but I'm not quiting either. I can surf very well behind my boat and I still have a lot to try as far as the weighting goes. Overall, I'm VERY happy with my boat but I do however like the look of those beautiful surf wakes that I see posted up. I don't really have any video of our wake but I'll try to get some. If you or anyone else has some vid, please post it up. The lake we surf is a very deep lake, usually we are surfing in 50-100 ft of water so we should be ok there.

[ScottnAz]

You're right, it was the RZ2 they were talking about, I'm not sure why I had the 4 in my head. I wonder how fast they're going in those videos. Have you tried speeding up Scottie?
I've thought about a different boat as well, due to the fact we, too, surf 90%+ of the time. But probably for different reasons. If I were actually searching for a new boat, it would be with the purpose of minimizing the needed extra fatsacs to make a good wave.

If memory serves, deeper/taller waves were produced in deeper lake waters, and it was more difficult to get the extra height from a wave in shallow lakes (20 ft and under). I'll take some video next time I'm out to test this theory as the cove we surf in has one side that's 50'+ deep, and the other side can be as shallow as 10'.

[sybrmike]

First a disclaimer - I've never wakesurfed, so I know absolutely nothing about this in the real world. However, I did take a lot of fluid dynamics back in college and played around with small boat designs (plus, I slept in a Holiday Inn last night). From reading here and elsewhere about tuning surf wakes, the theoretical seems to apply to the practical - so here's some theory... (sorry it's all I got - can't wait to actually apply this myself)

Hull design does play a major role in wake size & shape, so no, you may not ever be able to duplicate the wake of an RZ or Enzo. But given that your hull design is fixed, there are things you can do to maximize and tweak your wake for surfing.

Volume - The shear size of the wake (volume of water) you have to play with is determined by hull displacement, so more displacement = bigger wake. A bigger boat has the potential for a bigger wake since it can be loaded heavier and displace more water than a smaller boat. Load it up as much as you safely can. Since a boat can only handle so much weight, moving as much as practical to the surf side will displace more water on that side giving more volume to play with where it counts. Water depth also plays a big part on volume, but sounds like you've got plenty of depth.

Speed - planing boat hulls have maximum displacement at rest. As speed increases, the lift increases, raising the boat out of the water, displacing less water. Obviously you can't surf at a stop, but want to go as slow as possible while still maintaining the desired shape. Speed is a compromise of size vs shape.

Shape - is determined by the geometry of the running surface. While the hull design is fixed, the effective shape can be changed by varying the speed, weight distribution, and wakeplate. Basically, a short running surface results in a short, peaky wake. A long running surface lengthens the pocket, but usually at the expense of height. So for a given amount of ballast/displacement a slow moving hull, weighted stern heavy, wakeplate up keeps the bow up and more of the hull out of the water - taller, shorter wake. Getting the bow down and more hull in the water (faster, more weight forward, wakeplate down) increases the length of running surface - longer wake (weighting one side also increases the running surface on that side).

Lots of variables here, but looks like you've already got lots of "meat" to play with. Again, sorry if I'm speaking out of place with no practical knowledge (we engineers are known for that) - but hopefully my theoretical ramblings will help you determine what to move where to achieve the wake you're looking for.

[flyboywakesurf]

I've surfed so many boats, they all have good and bad points. The Enzo is proclaimed as the King of surf boats and often times it's shown with a super long pocket, but the spine doesn't form until maybe 8-10 feet back, so effectively it has about the same length as any other wakesurf boat. The wake from the transom to a good 6 feet back just isn't surfable. Most boats have a much steeper spine and form closer to the boat. The Enzo has two very good parts of it's wake, one is the push at the back is probably one of the strongest and second is the transition is shaped about the best of any boat. Also, it just doesn't surf well on the starboard side without the reverse rotation prop OR weighting it to a dangerous point.

I surfed that RZ2 this weekend. On Thursday night and Saturday afternoon, the wake was amazing. On Friday afternoon and Sunday it was less than good. The smaller boat shapes well, but is hyper-sensitive to weight placement. The wake was never the same on the four days I rode it. My family owns an older Tige and I like it pretty well, but it's a bigger boat and is less sensitive to weight movement. The RZ2 is easy to overweight and weight amidship and on the opposite side of the wake really diminishes the quality of the wake quickly.

The new Supreme I think it's a V226? is a nice surf board too, very long usable pocket and seems to form well on both sides. I only rode the port side, but it was an excellent wake. Not quite the lip I would have like, still a solid wake and long usable pocket.

[87SunSportMikeyD]

I don't have a new boat - but I still know the general principles.
-To get more LIP on the wave, weight the surf side more
-For overall size, I add some weight to the off-surf side (but usually the surf-side will need some more then too, since it HAS to lean a good deal)
-To lengthen the pocket, add some bow weight. Placement of bow weight near the surf-side-hull is critical imo. This is usually only needed if your wave is very tall and tends to 'push' you into the transom of the boat.

I know my boat is WAY different than yours, butin my DD I use 600lbs across the rear, 720lb on the rear floor and 350lb in the bow.

If I were to translate that to a V, I would say approx 1000in rear locker, 300 in opposite rear locker, 350 in bow against the surf-side hull.

My wake is generally waist-high and pretty clean, sometimes it's a bit lippy. Again sorry for mucking up your pretty v-drive thread with my dd waves haha!

And I REALLY wanna see those videos, dang you work and youtube.

[ssmith]

Thanks everyone for all of the info.

Scott, I wanted less visible sacs as well. That's why I went with the 1100lbs sacs. However, as you know...it takes more than just those sacs to get a good wake. So, I still have sacs all over the place and my wife hates it and so do I (I can't stand clutter).

Mike, you may not have real world experience but it sounds like you know exactly what you're talking about....good stuff.

Mikey, get that DD stuff outta here, haha just kidding. I watched your vid and it looks like you have the DD dialed in. Looks like a very nice wake and some nice 3's you're pullin'.

Flyboy, thanks for the input. I'd love to see what you think a good wake is. I need to go to some competitions to see what a "real" wake looks like and maybe luck into getting a quick ride in to see how a good wake feels. Too bad the RZ2 seems so fickle with the small weight adjustments. I really like the styling of the boat and an amazing surf wake was icing on the cake. I've been looking at them alot over the last few days. I may have to redirect my attention. I'm keeping my boat but its fun to look.

Here's a video I shot today of the wake we surf. We had 1100 lbs sac in right v-drive compartment, 400lbs sac on back of right rear seat, 650lbs sac in ski locker and 400lbs sac in bow (pushed to right side), plus about 200lbs lead under the seats on the right side (behind drivers seat). Also had the new OJ fusion prop (14.25x14.5) on and were running approx 11.5-12mph. I must say, that today was one of the best wakes we have had to date. It was cleaner and longer (still not like the Tige and Enzo) with lots of push.

The new prop was strong. I still had the perfect pass set from the last outing using the 13.7x17.5 prop (2900 rpms). Speed with stock prop at 2900 rpms was around 10.5 mph and with this prop it jumped to 15 mph. I don't know if this makes sense or not but thats the result I got. So, we had to drop the PP rpms down to get the speed down a bit.


Here's the vid (sorry its not any better and the rope in dangling in the way)....

http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w126/scotties2006/Supra/?action=view&current=MVI_5181.flv